Lead flow problem

[melloairman]

This is some salvaged lead that tested 22 bhn on my Cabin tree . And this is the second time I have cast bullets after it was smelted . First time last year I cast bullets with it . And it acted this way as well . Bullets did not work well so I am melting them back down and casting them again . At 650 to 700 a thick slug that will not mix back forms in my Lee bottom pour . About a Lee ladle full . I skim it off and nothing re appears . At 730-750 the lead is still thick and quick to cool on the cutter . And it wants to make the pot leak because it will not allow the stem to seat well . If I take the temp to 770 - 790 . The pot quits leaking and the puddle looks like a normal liquid one and cools in about the right amount of time . May be still a little quicker than normal . It is not the thermometer . I have checked it with boiling water and with another alloy that I have and I get the same reading with it as I have in the past . Is this how lead with way to much antimony reacts ? Marvin

[tja6435]

Following, interesting question and I'd like to hear the answer as well

[popper]

BHN is in the range of Stereo metal.

[melloairman]

Do not know if it helps but it is the lead plates that you see in the picture . But there was no type on them .Marvin
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn55/melloroadman/IMG_6827A.jpg (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/melloroadman/media/IMG_6827A.jpg.html)

[bangerjim]

ONLY way you will ever know..............take a hunk to a local scrap yard and have the x-ray gun it. Then you will know for sure! And can plug it into the alloy calculator like we all do.

22 is too hard for most boolits! Too much Sb will give you antimonial wash potential in your barrels. I would cut it with pure to get it down in the 12-15 range for general shooting usage.

[melloairman]

ONLY way you will ever know..............take a hunk to a local scrap yard and have the x-ray gun it. Then you will know for sure! And can plug it into the alloy calculator like we all do.

22 is too hard for most boolits! Too much Sb will give you antimonial wash potential in your barrels. I would cut it with pure to get it down in the 12-15 range for general shooting usage.
Thanks but I really think that there are knowledgeable forum members that can answer my question . I am not interested in the percentage of the different ingredients of the alloy . But wanted to know for my own growth of knowledge as to what might cause this scenario . Marvin

[country gent]

Well it may be high anttimony content causing the issues. Also it may be a babit of some form blended for a special purpose you happened onto. It might be a zinc contamination problem. Looking at an alloy or pics dosnt tell you much. The hardness tester tells you its hard. Nothing gives you the make up and whats in the mix there. The xray gun does if one is available. Other wise try adding lead to bring it to the hardness you need then add 1%-2% tin to help improve flow of material.m But just adding materials is a shot in the dark and if its zinc issues then your wasting materials and time, with out the x-ray telling what it is. Another thing not mentioned awas bullet s wieght stated for mould and actual weight of bullet cast. this can indicate alloies also

[LAGS]

I suspect Zinc mixed in also.
It is very hard, but has a Grainy consistancy if not hot enough.
It stays lumly like you described, and will not cast good Bullets.

If you cant get it X-rayed, then just drop a hunk of it in some Muratic Acid and it will bubble. Battery acid dropped on it would tell also.
Your car battery can spare a drop or two.
Lead wont do that, not will Tin or Antimony.

[GrayTech]

Could be high antimony content. May even be Zink contamination. Or a whole range of other possibilities. (Have you tried a smash test to see how tough/brittle they are? When broken open what does the metal look like inside. course or fine grained?)
As previously stated, the only way to really find out is to test it (least painful method.)
Also as previously stated, if you want to experiment (unknown alloy = highest probability for tearing your hair out!), cut it with pure lead to 12 -15 BHN and tweak it from there relative to how it performs. You can heat treat this to as hard as you need.
One way to test for Zink is to drop some pool acid on it and see if it reacts.

[bangerjim]

Thanks but I really think that there are knowledgeable forum members that can answer my question. Marvin




HUMMMMMMM........did someone say "x-ray gun"?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!? I think so....several times.

% content IS knowledge. VALUABLE knowledge.....at least for what most us do.

We are not psychic on here.

Different melt behaviors can be caused by many different things, so melt temp really tells you only....it melts as xxx deg F!

Hear me now and believe me later. An x-ray gun is your little friend. Will answer all your questions.

bangerjim

[runfiverun]

antimony usually manifests itself as a foamy grey mush on top of the alloy, but will flux in and not give you any further problems when you turn the heat down.
zinc will show a bright oatmeal look to the mix and will keep on popping up until you get the content below 2%, and will pop up more and more as you urn down the heat.

needing to turn the heat up to cast well is [unfortunately] an indicator of a contaminate of sorts.
copper,calcium,cobalt,indium,nickel... whatever.

how I would deal with what you have is to do a test by cutting the alloy with another known alloy ww's or
straight[ish] lead.
I'd start at 50-50 and cut that 50-50 again until everything settled down, then just run with it.

[georgerkahn]

"If you cant get it X-rayed, then just drop a hunk of it in some Muratic Acid and it will bubble. Battery acid dropped on it would tell also.
Your car battery can spare a drop or two.
Lead wont do that, not will Tin or Antimony."

This bit of wisdom, I have never heard -- but surely love it... THANKS! Local hardware and building supply stores purvey muriatic acid, and I'll pick some up just for this "checkin'" purpose!

george

[RogerDat]

Drain cleaner might offer a small bottle purchase for muriatic acid. Pool or concrete etch wash might be cheaper.
There are really only three ways to proceed with scrap.

Have it gunned to find out what you have then figure out how to use it based on that information (all hail the alloy calculator). This has the best chance of yielding consistent good results.

Take a best guess and adjust based on results of adding stuff based on that guess. Some people have better guessing ability than others. Can work just fine with "common" ingredients to yield decent plinking ammo. Don't need to know purity to mix some soft lead in with WW's and a dash of solder of unknown tin content until it casts well and has acceptable hardness. Can take some tweaking time and works best if you develop in small quantity and can make a big batch once you have a recipe. Next batch may (probably) will be different.

Lot of testing, melt point, hardness, specific gravity, weight of bullet from known mold, acid test. Just doesn't make sense unless you are dealing with a quantity large enough to make use of that overhead or an alloy that is of enough value as an ingredient to warrant the work. E.G large quantity of unknown solder this could yield approx. tin percentage or provide a best "match" for a known printers lead.


Don't forget Hardball and Lyman #2 are nearly the same BHN but totally different alloy compositions. In most cases they would shoot the same. Cutting each of them with 50% with plain might yield significantly different casting results.

You may have some really good stuff, some sort of printing lead or high antimony alloy. Or something with zinc or some odd alloy that is either not usable or can only be uses as a small amount of "filler" in good lead so it does not get wasted while not screwing up the whole pot. Less than 2% zinc and high temp melt should still work so you might get some use out of 90% lead with 10% zinc if used in small quantities.

Good luck!

[bangerjim]

"If you cant get it X-rayed, then just drop a hunk of it in some Muratic Acid and it will bubble. Battery acid dropped on it would tell also.
Your car battery can spare a drop or two.
Lead wont do that, not will Tin or Antimony."

This bit of wisdom, I have never heard -- but surely love it... THANKS! Local hardware and building supply stores purvey muriatic acid, and I'll pick some up just for this "checkin'" purpose!

george

HCl (pool or muriatic acid) is far more ironically capable/strong than H2SO4 (sulfuric or battery acid). It will react much faster and far better. I use only HCl for testing, as it will react to much lower levels of Zn. Find a buddy that has a swimming pool and get a small plastic bottle full of it. Keep it in double ZIP LOK plastic bags and away from ANY metal tools or they will develop surface rust almost overnight! HCl fumes profusely!!!!!! Especially critical for your guys in humid climates. Around here it is only a couple three dollars A GALLON at big box stress.

banger

[melloairman]

antimony usually manifests itself as a foamy grey mush on top of the alloy, but will flux in and not give you any further problems when you turn the heat down.
zinc will show a bright oatmeal look to the mix and will keep on popping up until you get the content below 2%, and will pop up more and more as you urn down the heat.

needing to turn the heat up to cast well is [unfortunately] an indicator of a contaminate of sorts.
copper,calcium,cobalt,indium,nickel... whatever.

how I would deal with what you have is to do a test by cutting the alloy with another known alloy ww's or
straight[ish] lead.
I'd start at 50-50 and cut that 50-50 again until everything settled down, then just run with it.
Ray gun is not locally available . Bullets fill out good and are normally 3-4 grains heavier than what lee states . Zinc is not the issue as you have stated . Thanks Marvin

[fredj338]

I also suspect zinc. My buddy gave me some 15# ingots of clip ww. They were a little hard for clip ww, that was because he had melted the zinc as well. Clogged up my MC pot. I remelted them, fluxed the snot out of it with sawdust & then mixed it w/ some tape ww. I didn't want to throw away 60# of potential alloy.

[bangerjim]

If you want to remove Zn ( and Sb and Sn!) use CuSO4 as a flux in your re-melting pot. Copper sulfate is sold in big box stores as root killer in the plumbing department. There is a good deal of info on here about it. Do a search.

You will be left with pretty much pure Pb with a little Cu in there and you will have to add back in your Sn & Sb to where you want to be. I have messed with this procedure and it does work....much better and safer than sulfur!

[melloairman]

antimony usually manifests itself as a foamy grey mush on top of the alloy, but will flux in and not give you any further problems when you turn the heat down.
zinc will show a bright oatmeal look to the mix and will keep on popping up until you get the content below 2%, and will pop up more and more as you urn down the heat.

needing to turn the heat up to cast well is [unfortunately] an indicator of a contaminate of sorts.
copper,calcium,cobalt,indium,nickel... whatever.

how I would deal with what you have is to do a test by cutting the alloy with another known alloy ww's or
straight[ish] lead.
I'd start at 50-50 and cut that 50-50 again until everything settled down, then just run with it.
Got the pot hot today and it is the foamy grey that you spoke of . I had notice some wash in my barrels as well and that is one reason I asked . Had already tested for zinc with Muratic acid . Tested some of the bullets from the first cast before they went back into the pot today . And they were at 14 bhn not the 22 bhn before removing some of the mush . Ran the pot at 800 today no frosting or other type of problem with the bullets or the pot leaking . Did remove the mush again as before . The bullets tested today were cast 8 months ago . So they should have taken a set my now . Do not think I will mix this lead under these conditions . I will let these set and see what they end up at . Marvin

[RogerDat]

Well if it doesn't work out don't feel bad, I hauled about 50# of ingots around for 20 years, think I moved them three times not counting rearranging their location in the garage. Turned out they were zinc not lead. Bummed, but eh? what can you do? Scrap shoot is just adding an S to what it really is.

[runfiverun]

even if it is Zinc.
you still have a lead alloy and it can be dealt with and used.
Zinc is not the big bad wolf it's made out to be.
you can replace it by using the copper sulphate method but you just end up with a copper laced alloy that is just as difficult to deal with. [and copper is more problematic at 0.5% than zinc is at 1.5%]
when your spout or the stream starts to freeze over and you get junk boolits from an alloy you just fixed [with the copper method] and it takes 6 times as much alloy to fix it, you start to think about some of this stuff and do some research.
zinc is best removed by cooling and skimming then by heating and fluxing with straight garden sulpher.
you then get a ton of the zinc out of the alloy and also introduce a secondary grain refining agent to the mix.
you can also work with the alloy at a much lower temperature, and it will cast well.

[melloairman]

Well if it doesn't work out don't feel bad, I hauled about 50# of ingots around for 20 years, think I moved them three times not counting rearranging their location in the garage. Turned out they were zinc not lead. Bummed, but eh? what can you do? Scrap shoot is just adding an S to what it really is.
I paid 10 cents a pound for those plates . And they cast a good bullet . The bullets that I am throwing back in the pot are some .452 160 grain FR that will not group unless I load them backwards and use them as a WC . A RB has a better BC than a WC that diameter so that is what these will be for the most part . Yes RB but since I am not muzzle loading and having to make them conform to the barrel by hand I will not have a problem . I have shot 22 bhn balls before with no issues . Sorry to hear your fate .Marvin