Soft lead?

[KenH]

Hello all - today I've been reading about this PC'ing (Powder Coating) of cast bullets. Sounds neat!! Now, while I would use some in a 357 mag Colt Trooper, my main desire would be for a 45-70 and 50-70 rounds. Does PC'ing work good for soft lead bullets pushed at 1,000 fps or so?

Thanks to all for info and suggestions.

Edit to add: How does (Powder Coating) work with smooth sided bullets with no lube grooves? The type of smooth bullet used for paper patching?

Ken H>

[Dragonheart]

Since the powder coating is acting as a lubricant as well as sealing in the lead, the hardness of the lead makes no difference as you won't be leading your barrel with a properly sized bullet.

[Utah Shooter]

Hey I was just going to ask this. I have an endless supply of pure lead. So I am guessing it works for 9mm?

[bangerjim]

Most have found you need ~2% Sn for good mold fill-out. That is what I use. Pure may not give you the good fill-out you want. If NLG design, not a critical, but pure can lead to wrinklies even at good casting temps.

[Whistler]

PC is an alternative for the lube, not for proper choice of alloy or correct sizing and bullet profile for the gun.
Your performance of your handgun (accuracy, expansion etc) is still determined by choosing the right hardness of your lead.

[popper]

Smooth sided work great, all my rifle moulds are. No, regular pressure loads in 9mm need proper alloy, but soft may work in the big bore run slow with slow powder.

[Dragonheart]

Hey I was just going to ask this. I have an endless supply of pure lead. So I am guessing it works for 9mm?

Powder coating is an excellent choice for 9 mm and all other handgun cartridges. I personally have not powder coated for rifle as I seldom shoot my long guns and when I do I already have developed accurate loads using jacketed bullets. which I have an ample supply.

[KenH]

Thanks for all the answers folks - I've now got the FH red powder, and a PID temperature controlled toaster oven so I'll be trying PC pretty soon. Sounds like an interesting thing to play with {g}

edit: It's been mentioned to use black airsoft pellets in a plastic tub for the static creation - is the color black important? I've got the green airsoft pellets - any chance those will work to create static?

Ken H>

[Dragonheart]

Thanks for all the answers folks - I've now got the FH red powder, and a PID temperature controlled toaster oven so I'll be trying PC pretty soon. Sounds like an interesting thing to play with {g}

edit: It's been mentioned to use black airsoft pellets in a plastic tub for the static creation - is the color black important? I've got the green airsoft pellets - any chance those will work to create static?

Ken H>

The black works and that is what I use, others have tried different colors and say they do not work.

[KenH]

Thanks - it's off to WalMart tomorrow to see if they've got black pellets.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I use 99.9% pure lead for my self-defense rounds. They shoot very accurate for me in .38 spl and .45 Colt.

I wouldn't try this with an auto-pistol because the nose has to hit the ramp pretty hard.

If you want an accurate boolit that expands fast, has high density, and bends rather than breaks, pure lead is a good option.

As for fill out I haven't had any problems. Just cast hot and fast.

[RP]

Just remember pure lead is soft and the harder you push it down a barrel the more the base tends to expand. Example 454 bullets jackets are thicker to handle the higher pressures to keep the base of the bullet from expanding as its being pushed down the barrel. Push to hard you may have a spike in pressures and not be aware of it until it is to late. That's my way of looking at it and from what I learned when I started reloading for the 454 is what I am basing this thinking off of. I have not tested this since I do not have the proper equipment for testing.

[KenH]

OK, let me do this second time. Lost all I typed first time.

Here's my first test of PC'ing. I used HF red powder, black ASBB's from Walmart, and a cool whip container (had to buy cool whip just for the container). Humidity is 100% outside, but gauge shows 60% inside (AC'd inside). Got decent coating (I guess, didn't look all that even to me), but as it melted in toaster oven the coating did even out. After about 20 minutes in toaster oven at 400ºF (PID controlled) they look like below. One of smooth side has been sized from .496" to .493", other is as dropped from homemade mold. The one with lube grooves is a .512" dropped from Lee mold. The .30 cal has been flattened a bit and amazingly (to me anyway), the PC didn't crack or anything - just held good.

145983

Once it quits raining around here I plan to cast up more bullets and try more of them.

Thanks to all ya'll nice folks for the help getting me started in this.

Ken H>

[depoloni]

From my trials and errors...

45acp with PC'd pure lead near or at full-house, works fine
44mag with PC'd pure lead near or at full-house... not so much...

PC has enabled me to use a softer-than-otherwise alloy for a given pressure level/velocity in my handguns. Rifles too.

PC alone will not eliminate bullet deformation in the barrel, over-stripping the rifling (not properly spinning), horrible accuracy that results, etc. You push a boolit that's way too soft for the forces involved, it won't work like you hope it will. It might reduce (if not eliminate) leading, but not horrible results due to other factors.

It's a great tool, it's fun, and it's cool looking for sure. It's not a miracle, nor should it be expected to perform them however. In my opinion at least.

[KenH]

Interesting the 45 works fine, but 44 mag doesn't work so good.... OR - is that due to the heavier load in the 44 mag?

I'm using a fairly soft lead since this is for BP cartridges, 45-70 and 50-70, and not anywhere near max loads.... Just light plinking loads, so I don't really expect "stripping" the rifling to be an issue.

Ken H>

[depoloni]

I believe it's due to the max avg. pressure between the two rounds.

The 45acp has a max pressure of 21,000 PSI (SAAMI)
The 44 rem mag has a max pressure of 36,000 PSI (SAAMI)
...to take it a step further, for instance, the 30-30 has a max pressure of 42,000 PSI (SAAMI)

I have found that I can push a softer alloy to faster-than-traditionally-lubed velocities (and presumably pressures, no testing equipment here) with the addition of PC, but you can NOT push something "ridiculously too soft" for a given velocity/pressure by simply adding powdercoating. The PC certainly reduces leading across the board, but I found that pushing a pure-lead PC boolit "to the max" in the 45acp vs. the 44mag (or 30-30, tried that too hehe) results in... well, different results.

Too much pressure and/or velocity for a given alloy will still strip-out going through the rifling for instance, and in some of those instances still lead, if you get too far out ahead of yourself. The boolit still needs proper fill-out, proper size, and proper load to work properly PC or not.

For instance, if a given mold just *barely* drops the right diameter with WW or other "not pure" alloys, it usually won't with pure lead. PC will help increase the boolit's diameter, and may prevent some leading, but accuracy will still suffer.

I don't mean to imply that you can't get pure lead to work in ANY firearm at appropriate velocities and pressures. For you in the applications you suggest it may just work fine. I LOVE me some PC! Just tossing in a word of caution that all of the "potential" issues of using pure lead in a given application aren't solved entirely by just slapping on a powdercoat. Humbly, I tried :oops:

[KenH]

Pressure is interesting - you've given pressures those three, now my 45-70 Trapdoor is only rated for 28,000 psi MAX!!! Wouldn't it be neat to have one of these:

https://www.shootingsoftware.com/pressure.htm

Those would be NEAT!!! and "only" $500 for basic setup.

[fishingsetx]

Hey I was just going to ask this. I have an endless supply of pure lead. So I am guessing it works for 9mm?
I used pure lead for my 9mm and used to fight bad lead problems with Lee alox lube. Some if not most of my problems were from undersized bullets. I started espc without changing anything else as a test and my leading pretty much went away. This is how I plan to load from now on! Basically i cast the bullets (lee 124 gr rn tuble lube), run them through my sizing die (Lee 0.356), espc (no sizing afterward), load, and crimp using a Lee factory crimp die. With the PC, i get great results, almost no leading, and better accuracy. I would use an alloy but right now, im getting pure lead for free with access to 100's of lbs! YMMV.

[bangerjim]

I cast 9-12 hardness for everything and PC them all (ESPC and BBDT). I have not had any leading in over 2 years now! And no grease smoke. I use standard groove, micro groove and no groove designs with excellent success.

I do use Cu GC's on all 357, and 44 magnum and 223 & 30 rifle hot loads. PC does not replace checks.

I cast 14 & PC for high load rifles.

But the key is barrel fit! PC is not a cure-all for poor fitting boolits. It is not a crutch for bad performance due to lousy fit. Follow the established rules and the PC and you will be very happy.

banger

[fredj338]

Thanks - it's off to WalMart tomorrow to see if they've got black pellets.
Ken , I used the green ones,they work fine. I think it's more about how you shake than the color of the bb.