Winchester Levergun Book(s)?

[TXGunNut]

I guess it's official, I'm a Winchester collector. Big fan of the 94, especially the early ones, but quite honestly I like them all. Learning a little bit here and there but I'm looking for a well-researched and useful book on the subject. I'll probably pick up R L Wilson's book but a book by Renneberg on the 94 came up on a search and it looks good to me as well. I see there's a Blue Book dealing with Winchesters as well but it is probably due for an update.
Any favorites of the more experienced collectors around here? I'm interested in a detailed history of the evolution of these rifles as well as an explanation of the collectors' perspective. I spent several hours studying the Winchester collection in Cody a few years back and want to know more next time I visit there. Will also come in handy next time a sweet little Winchester tries to follow me home.:popcorn:

[pietro]

.

The Renneberg book is one of the best references available about the Winchester 1894/94 - with a LOT of documented examples & pics, of both the rifles, and the various features (markings, sight positioning & more).

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcQsaxSOBIFfoRBkZm_TUs8_HYrMpKA PRPZauaWuQLA4qRhjev8P&usqp=CAE


.

[TXGunNut]

I'm thinking the Renneberg book is out of print judging by the prices of the used books. Hopefully they'll do another printing but I'll keep my eyes peeled for one.

[w30wcf]

www.georgemadis.com

w30wcf

[fouronesix]

Yep, The Winchester Book by Madis is a standard. Also, the model specific books by Pirkle are excellent.

[alamogunr]

Not necessarily a book for collectors, but "A Winchester Lever Legacy" by Clyde Williamson is very interesting. Lots of info on various cartridges that different Winchester lever guns were chambered. Also stories of hunting with lever rifles.

[TXGunNut]

When was the Madis book last revised? Website a little vague about that.

Looks like 1985, wonder if the website is actually selling those books?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Not necessarily a book for collectors, but "A Winchester Lever Legacy" by Clyde Williamson is very interesting. Lots of info on various cartridges that different Winchester lever guns were chambered. Also stories of hunting with lever rifles.

Yes, it is for the shooter rather than the collector, but it is a superb great doorstep of a book, and I've got mine. The author also says "Well, hell, I like 'em all!", but it is entirely on the Browning Winchesters, i.e. excluding the 66 and 73. The folksy style and western anecdotes and artifacts can be deceptive, for they conceal an exhaustive and well documented load development that wouldn't disgrace any of our premier ballistic authorities. It is out of print, and an expensive book on www.bookfinder.com (http://www.bookfinder.com), which is part of my life support system. If there is anybody working for a republishing house out there, please find the rights owner and reprint this book!

I'd hate to seem pernickety about spelling etc. with someone I agree with, but the title is "The Winchester Lever Legacy". "A... " might sabotage your chances of finding it on a web search.

Also out of print, large and extremely good is "Winchester: the Gun that Won the West" by Harold F. Williamson (no relation so far as I know.) This is a company history rather than a detailed technological work, but has much information on the people and policies involved. It was written as a result of Olin Industries making their archives available to Yale University, with a grant for research, and the author thanks, among many others, went to Edwin Pugsley, the company's general superintendent with 40 years of service, and his own five-person research staff. This one sells amazingly cheaply for what it is.

[alamogunr]

Yes, it is for the shooter rather than the collector, but it is a superb great doorstep of a book, and I've got mine. The author also says "Well, hell, I like 'em all!", but it is entirely on the Browning Winchesters, i.e. excluding the 66 and 73. The folksy style and western anecdotes and artifacts can be deceptive, for they conceal an exhaustive and well documented load development that wouldn't disgrace any of our premier ballistic authorities. It is out of print, and an expensive book on www.bookfinder.com (http://www.bookfinder.com), which is part of my life support system. If there is anybody working for a republishing house out there, please find the rights owner and reprint this book!

I'd hate to seem pernickety about spelling etc. with someone I agree with, but the title is "The Winchester Lever Legacy". "A... " might sabotage your chances of finding it on a web search.

Also out of print, large and extremely good is "Winchester: the Gun that Won the West" by Harold F. Williamson (no relation so far as I know.) This is a company history rather than a detailed technological work, but has much information on the people and policies involved. It was written as a result of Olin Industries making their archives available to Yale University, with a grant for research, and the author thanks, among many others, went to Edwin Pugsley, the company's general superintendent with 40 years of service, and his own five-person research staff. This one sells amazingly cheaply for what it is.

Thanks for the correction. I had to go to my non-attached shop where I keep all my gun related stuff to confirm the author. I should have written it down.

I just ordered "Winchester: the Gun that Won the West" through Abebooks.
http://www.abebooks.com/

This is another service you might consider when looking for books. I still had the receipt for Lever Legacy in the book. I paid $45 about 15 years ago. Cheapest I found just now was almost $100 with shipping.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Abebooks, Amazon etc. are among the many third party sites and independent booksellers that figure in Bookfinder. I have heard some people suggest that they don't include all the books available via Amazon etc., but if true, I think that is uncommon.

I bought "The Winchester Lever Legacy" in post-liberation Kuwait for much the same price as you, and I was surprised to be called in to the Customs office to explain it. They hardly ever opened packages, and why would they care about Winchesters when the country was afloat with liberated Kalashnikovs? It turned out that the customs man knew I worked a short walk away, and just wanted to talk about the book and give me Arab coffee and cakes. My copy is signed "Snooky", the author's nickname, and people are looking for extremely fancy prices for those on Bookfinder, but I think he signed quite a lot of them.

[fouronesix]

I too have the Williamson book. An interesting read but I wouldn't take the loads, techniques, testing, methods or anecdotes to the bank. Kind of light on best available scientifically verified data.

A better book for loads and techniques would be Venturino's book- Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West.

[smokeywolf]

All the Harold F. Williamson books are good. My favorite deals with the company's history; "WINCHESTER" THE GUN THAT WON THE WEST".

George Madis' book, "The Winchester Book"
Don't know if Patti, Georges widow is still selling "The Winchester Book". Used to communicate with her regularly. As of a couple of years ago, she was still selling them. When George was still alive he would hand sign every copy.

"Winchester Repeating Arms Company" by Herb Houze

[TXGunNut]

I have MV's book, it's a treasure in it's own right but as the title suggests it's more about shooting than the guns themselves. I think he could write a fine book on the history of more than a few leverguns (and may have!) but much of what I'm looking for is beyond the scope of that book.
I'll make inquiries @ Madis' site, I'd rather buy it from his family than a reseller.
I have a confession to make, I was doing a little research this evening and discovered I'd neglected to enter my circa 1921 94 SRC in 32WS in my log. I remedied that by dragging out my older 94's just to verify numbers and such. ;-)
I think I'll get Wilson's book as a coffee table book. I like his Ruger book, still use it for a reference now and then.
Renneberg looks like something I may be lucky enough to stumble across someday. I seem to be focusing in 1894's/94's so his book may be useful as well as interesting. I have a local used book store that doesn't seem to like guns much, might be a good place to look. They have an awesome cooking section, everyone in there is skinny. Go figure.

[smokeywolf]

TXGunNut,

George and Patti Madis used to live just South of you on a 140 acre spread near Brownsboro.

[TXGunNut]

TXGunNut,

George and Patti Madis used to live just South of you on a 140 acre spread near Brownsboro.


Wow, just a couple hours away. Sounds like a nice little road trip. I'll send them an e-mail, will give them your regards.

[Tim357]

Also, while not a collector's book, Sam Fadala penned a tome near thirty years ago titled along the lines of Winchester's 94, Americas favorite rifle. Or some such. Wish I could find a copy.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Wow, just a couple hours away. Sounds like a nice little road trip. I'll send them an e-mail, will give them your regards.

It sounds from Post 4 that George has departed leaving no forwarding address. Does anybody know for sure? It comes to us all, and plenty of brilliantly successful people in their day don't leave books that serve as a memorial. I've heard his "Winchester Dates of Manfacture" criticized, but I don't think anybody has extracted better from the records Winchester kept.

[smokeywolf]

Yes BiS, George passed some years ago. George's dates of manufacture came from different sources within the company than those that today contradict his data, which come from the comparatively recently discovered polishing room's records.
Unfortunately, those who became involved with introducing the polishing room data did so with an inference that George's information was just plain patently wrong, rather than sourced from a different department and step in the manufacturing process. Although the new data is of great value and historical importance, it seemed that some of the methods used in introducing it had to do with one-uping George Madis.

I know that some of the polishing room records are available from Ms. Pauline Muerrle http://www.paulinemuerrle.com/ . She was the last engraver to work in Winchester's Custom Shop. She wrote a book on the company, but I have neither bought nor seen it and can't offer an opinion on it's desirability. I do know that she has in the recent past, offered engraving services out of her own shop.

[Clay M]

The West Arms Library Winchester Complete by Bill Westbook is a good one to have ,if you can find a copy. It is a red colored book. I am sure it is probably out of print. I also have all the ones mentioned above..

Actually Amazon has a copy listed for $95

[TXGunNut]

It sounds from Post 4 that George has departed leaving no forwarding address. Does anybody know for sure? It comes to us all, and plenty of brilliantly successful people in their day don't leave books that serve as a memorial. I've heard his "Winchester Dates of Manfacture" criticized, but I don't think anybody has extracted better from the records Winchester kept.

Gathered that George was no longer with us, was hoping someone was still selling books from the site. Steve Camp's excellent Hi-Powers and Handguns site is today run by his widow Sandy, for example.

[pietro]

.

FWIW - The Renneberg book is available as a Nook Book @ $21.95: http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/winchester-model-94-robert-c-renneberg/1110928162?ean=9781440224966


.

[TXGunNut]

I'm a little old-school about books but may make an exception in this case. Thanks, pietro.

[alamogunr]

.

FWIW - The Renneberg book is available as a Nook Book @ $21.95: http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/winchester-model-94-robert-c-renneberg/1110928162?ean=9781440224966.

I've got a Kindle so I checked Amazon. I just downloaded it for free w/Kindle Unlimited. I don't really own it, just borrowed, but that works for me.

[MFGordon]

The Renneberg 1894 book is available in digital form from Amazon. I bought it about a year ago with a gift card I received for Christmas. I'm not sure of the current price but I think it was about $15. While it's not the same as a printed book, it's kind of fun to have with me all the time on my IPhone and I can re-read it at work.

[alamogunr]

Thanks for the correction. I had to go to my non-attached shop where I keep all my gun related stuff to confirm the author. I should have written it down.

I just ordered "Winchester: the Gun that Won the West" through Abebooks.
http://www.abebooks.com/

This is another service you might consider when looking for books. I still had the receipt for Lever Legacy in the book. I paid $45 about 15 years ago. Cheapest I found just now was almost $100 with shipping.

Just received the book. I'm only in the first chapter, which is all history, but very readable so far. Best part it only cost $10 incl. shipping.
No! it is not new by any means. Outside cover is sun faded but inside almost seems unread. May be why it is stamped with a library name and available so cheap.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I've just been reminded of another book I have, "The History of Winchester Firearms" Thomas Henshaw is only the editor, with five predecessors, of the 1993 sixth edition. It is really the Winchester Press's book.

Needless to say it doesn't take a critical view. But it is a model-by-model collector's guide, with more detail than Harold Williamson's but almost nothing on company history. That includes such souvenir-stand products as all the commemorative 94s. Is there anybody so dead to romance as would spend a large gun-collecting budget on collecting all of them, or would prefer one to a beaten-up old rifle which has been and seen, and can be dragged through woods and shot without fear of depreciation?

[alamogunr]

I'm glad I bought the Harold Williamson book. The history of Winchester and the insights into manufacturing practices in the 1800's is far more interesting to me than a lot of details on various rifles. Most of my career was as a manufacturing engineer. The pictures in the Appendix are much more interesting to me than a lot of minute details. Obviously, I am not a collector.

[smokeywolf]

It's rare that more than 2 or 3 months go by that I don't check a fact or reference the Appendix in the Harold Williamson Winchester book. In fact, I have my nose in a gun or reloading book at least once a week.

[osteodoc08]

The Renneberg book is a good reference. It's kinda cool to peruse the gun racks and try to remember the details of what separates each sub model. Differences in sights, hammers, stocks, etc. many small nuances.

[TXGunNut]

Just left Amazon site, seems my new (to me) Winchester library costs about what I paid for my first Winchester levergun, lol. Bought good used copies of the Renneberg and Williamson books, they'll ship me the Wilson (coffee table) book when available. Thanks for the help, guys.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It might pay you in what it saves on your next one, though.

[ohiochuck]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?165-alamogunr "Not necessarily a book for collectors, but "The Winchester Lever Legacy" by Clyde Williamson is very interesting. Lots of info on various cartridges that different Winchester lever guns were chambered. Also stories of hunting with lever rifles."

I agree!! Excellent book on loading/shooting Winchester lever guns!!!
I really enjoy reading it!
Jim

[TXGunNut]

It might pay you in what it saves on your next one, though.


Good point, my goal is to have a library to help me enjoy the guns I have now but a few months from now I'll be a more educated consumer. I think I've done OK so far but I think I've been lucky. I'm more comfortable with 94's than I am with first & second Gen Colts, but that's another topic altogether.

[TXGunNut]

Got the Clyde Williamson and Robert Renneberg books tonight, may have to post an AWOL warning over on "Our Town", lol. First thing I noticed is the both acknowledged George Madis, guess I'll have to keep an eye out for his books. Renneberg looks like new, the Williamson book shows a little wear but is still better than the Amazon description.
On top of that I got a NOE GB mould that has been in the works for over a year, IIRC correctly that makes four new moulds that need breaking in.
Nice trip to the post office tonight, I'm one happy camper!

[Malamute]

Youve had plenty of good suggestions. I also very much enjoyed Sam Fadalas book on the 94. My local library has it.

Another good one is The Winchester Handbook by Madis. Its a small book,it is generally a smaller, condensed version of the larger book, but covers some guns not in the larger volume. One of the very nicest 94s I've ever seen is on the last page of the 94 section. Made in 1905 I believe, 20" extra-light barrel rifle, extra grade wood, early Lyman receiver sight, takedown, crescent butt, sling eyes, folding Lyman barrel sight, Lyman Jack front sight, the small ramp front of the early extra-light rifles.

I called Mrs Madis a year or two ago. She had hopes of getting another run of the book going. I dont know if that happened or not. Somebody should call her.

[TXGunNut]

I have seen the Fadala book, seem to recall reading much of it but IIRC it was more of a reference quest at the time. I saw Madis' Handbook at my local Cabelas Gun Library last weekend in the reference bookshelf in the office. There was also another Madis book on the shelf, think it was his book on the Model 12. They actually have a pretty impressive reference library but the manager told me the new stores are not budgeted funds for buying books for this purpose. Their buyers often run across them while buying guns. It's a shame. I would think they would want to put a few on the shelf like the Ft Worth store has and maybe offer the rest for sale.
But what do I know? Books are for most purposes obsolete but folks like me still enjoy time spent with them. I don't think electronic media will ever replace that for me.

[MT Gianni]

http://www.amazon.com/Winchesters-30-30-Model-Sam-Fadala/dp/0811719057/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1438744862&sr=1-7&keywords=sam+fadala

This was a great book I read often in the local library 25 years ago. Pretty high priced today.

[TXGunNut]

If I don't find a Madis book soon I may be interested in helping Mrs Madis do a small run of at least one of George Madis' books. I didn't get a reply from my inquiry on the website, will try another address or two that I found. George Madis apparently mentored, assisted and encouraged Renneberg and Williamson in their efforts.

[smokeywolf]

TXGunNut have you tried http://www.georgemadis.com/index.html ?

[TXGunNut]

TXGunNut have you tried http://www.georgemadis.com/index.html ?


Yes, no response. I have a couple of other e-mail addy's that I want to try.
Really enjoying the Renneberg book. It's obvious Mr. Renneberg closely examined more 94's than most of us will ever see and he paid attention to what he saw. It's not a big book but it contains a wealth of information.

[w30wcf]

You may want to join the Winchester Collectors Association.
For the Winchester Books, they reference Amazon and they do show new and used books available.
http://winchestercollector.org/store/

I had the wonderful opportunity to meet and speak with George Madis on two occasions at The Eastern Winchester Gun Shows in 1998 and 1999. He was very helpful with the questions that I asked him and even mailed me some information on the topics we discussed. Made me feel like we were friends for years. I was told that was the way he treated everybody.

Sadly, he passed on in 2003. The Winchester Collector magazine Volume 27 Issue 1 (Winter 2004) was dedicated to him and has several wonderful stories written about "Mr. Winchester" within its contents.

w30wcf

[TXGunNut]

Thanks for the link. Bought a good used copy on Amazon. For some reason I didn't get them to come up last time.
May look into joining WACA. Are you a member?

[smokeywolf]

I never met George, but my father knew him through 2 or 3 mutual friends and acquaintances.

I know that when he was still with us, the local police and sheriff's deputies used to drop in at his ranch outside of Brownsboro, TX and he would repair or tune up whatever firearm they brought that needed a knowledgeable and capable gunsmith.

[TXGunNut]

I guess that's why I bought a signed copy. Mr. Madis was apparently one of those people who was truly a treasure to get to know. Buying a signed copy is as close as I'll get to shaking this gentleman's hand.

[w30wcf]

TXGunNut,
Glad to hear that you located a copy, and a signed one at that! I no longer belong to the Association since I am more of a shooter than a collector. I am a member of their forum and do post there once in awhile though.
http://winchestercollector.org/forum/

w30wcf

[TXGunNut]

Thanks for the link. May prowl lurk around there a bit, will see. Not sure how I'd benefit from being an association member. I mainly want to learn about the rifles I have and how to spot a legitimate collector's item or a cobbled-together wannabe. I handled a short rifle a few weeks back but something just wasn't right. If I'd had Renneberg's book then I would have been able to answer my questions about it. Really enjoying Renneberg's book. I'm looking at an 1873 Carbine now that has an iffy bore but may be something I want to closely evaluate.

[hydraulic]

I think it was about 1978 when I bought my copy of the signed Madis book. Still have it and use it regularly. It is the brown one and I gave $20 for it when that was real money.

[TXGunNut]

I think it was about 1978 when I bought my copy of the signed Madis book. Still have it and use it regularly. It is the brown one and I gave $20 for it when that was real money.

I think that's why the books are so pricey when they hit the used book market. They generally come from estates and the sellers know what they have.

[alamogunr]

Sort of resurrecting this thread. I was just in the shop looking for another book and ran across the Madis book. I forgot I had it. The receipt inside says I paid $45 for it. The book is signed by the author and the cover is embossed "1 of 1000". Apparently just like the one TXGunNut bought.

Went to one of the used book sites(Abebooks) and only found 2 for under $100.

I'm going to start another thread soliciting ideas for cataloging my books.

[TXGunNut]

Thanks for resurrecting it, been away doing a bit of reading. ;-) Renneberg's book was a good starting place, will have to join the Cody group and request at least one letter. I have a 1920's built SRC with a receiver that I always thought was color case hardened. I learned this week that recievers of this era didn't blue well and many lost most or all of their bluing. Renneberg says only two carbines are known to have left the factory with CCH receivers. I've pulled this rifle (and others) out of the safe a few times this week and I still feel like it's a faded CCH finish. I suppose it could have been CCH'd after it left the factory but I won't know until I get a letter and perhaps a more experienced eye on this rifle.
Looking forward to the Madis book, mine also has the 1/1000 inscription and like many copies is signed by the author. As advertised it is in very good condition.

[TXGunNut]

The man was simply awesome in his knowledge of Winchesters. I'm still in the Henry/1866 chapter and I'm in awe of this man's encyclopedic knowledge.
I'd like to thank the people here who introduced me to this gentleman.