Swiss or Italian Vetterli?

[batjka]

Gentlemen,
I seem to have caught a Vetterli bug. Now, the question is what to buy - Swiss or Italian? And if Italian, the original or 6.5 Carcano?
Any opinion or advice is welcome.
Thanks.

[jhrosier]

I'm a fan of the Swiss Vetterli.

We had a pretty good thread going on the subject earlier.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=21917

Now that the weather is a little more cooperative, it's time to fire up the project again.

Jack

[BudRow]

The Swiss are the easiest to find however you will want one converted to center fire. The Italian Vetterli in it's original cal are hard to find. I think the ones that have been converted to 6.5 are more of a curiosity than anything else. I have all three and they are great fun! Bud

[batjka]

The main problem with the Swiss Vetterlis (as far as I understand), is finding the right bullet to feed through the magazine. Couldn't those Swiss gone with a box magazine instead?!!!! They made it so difficult for the shooters for generations to come!

I do not cast my own bullets. Has anyone had any experience with Gad's rounds and bullets? The price seems OK, but how's the service and quality?

[TAWILDCATT]

batjka:they were just getting in to repeaters.the 73 win was base for the mag.the german 71 /84 was tube mag as was the win hotckiss.a good read would be history of arms.[ not name of book.]that was the period of gread redesign of arms.:coffee:---[smilie=1:---:Fire:

[batjka]

Tawildcatt,
This was more a rhetorical question than anything else. It would have been so much easier for us had they put a box mag on the Vetterli. But, alas, the history is history...

Which brings me to my great idea. Why not remove the elevator assembly and insert a box magazine into the well of a Swiss Vetterli? It would definitely work, and make shooting one a much more pleasurable experience. All one needs is a little know-how, some tools and a Vetterli. The mag could be replenished through the top.

Come on, people, let's make one! If you decide to produce them commercially, I will charge for the idea. I need money too, you know ;-))

[jhrosier]

..... Why not remove the elevator assembly and insert a box magazine into the well of a Swiss Vetterli? .....

Hmmmm...
Two shots instead of thirteen?
:Fire: I'll pass.

Jack

[jonk]

The swiss will require a CF conversion to shoot. Easy enough. The Italian won't. I'd stick to the original loadings though, personally. The 6.5 Carcano scared the willies out of me due to the nature of the conversion- plus bullets always tumbled at what I felt were safe velocity/pressures.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

The Italian Vetterli-Vitali's have a box magazine(The Vitali conversion). My gun, a 10.4 x 47R, suffers from the bore being larger than the case neck ID, requiring a two diameter bullet. Haven't got around to this yet, making do with soft .44mag bullets and breech seating them. The first ones I used, straight Lino, tumbled and hit the target broadside at 25yds.

Morgan

[jhrosier]

The Italian Vetterli-Vitali's have a box magazine(The Vitali conversion). My gun, a 10.4 x 47R, suffers from the bore being larger than the case neck ID, requiring a two diameter bullet. Haven't got around to this yet, making do with soft .44mag bullets and breech seating them. The first ones I used, straight Lino, tumbled and hit the target broadside at 25yds.

Morgan

Morgan,
I don't know much about the Italian Vetterli, but the Swiss ones don't like to stabilize bullets much over 300 grains, so I'm told. I have been shooting the Lee 310 gr boolit, cast fairly hard, with good results from my Swiss.

Jack

[twotoescharlie]

no problem with the swiss vetterli feeding, must have correct OAL and feeding is no problem.

TTC

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Jack, One of the bullets I've been using, is the Lee 240gr. round nose. I'm going to experiment with two diameter bullets, either by turning an existing mold on my lathe, or sizing the rear portion down to fit the case neck.
Morgan

[montana_charlie]

Somewhere, I got the idea that "Black Powder Cartridge", or "BPCR" meant single shot rifles with outside hammers. Did I miss something, or did I take a wrong turn into the Military Rifles section?
CM

[martinibelgian]

CM, where in 'BPCR' (Black Powder Cartridge Rifle) does it say 'single shot' and 'outside hammer'?? The name seems self-explanatory tome... A vetterli is a BPCR, even though it is not a single shot and doesn't have an outside hammer. You would be excluding a lot of rifles with your definition, the NRA BP silhouette rules are not really applicable here!

[montana_charlie]

Shows just how terribly wrong a guy can be...I guess.
At least, I'll know to stay silent if I fall into a thread...
on Gatling guns.
CM

[smokemjoe]

Lee s mold C430-310 gr. RF is a good mold and crimps to the right lenght and feeds in the lifter good, I made a wooden block for one of mine in place of the lifter and use that one for S.S., The Swiss fue is very bad to get. Joe

[floodgate]

martinibelgian:

In some of the major competitions, "BPCR" is limited to outside-hammer rifles (some also require BP only, no smokeless or duplexing; and all - I believe - prohibit jacketed bullets or even metallic gas-checks - paper, or even plastic[!] wads are OK). This really turns off owners of Martinis, '71 Mausers and other "period" arms, especially when the No. 44-1/2 Stevens - a 20th-Century design - is welcomed with open arms. But many of the less-formal club matches are smart enough to welcome any arms appropriate to the late 19th Century, as this brings new shooters into the fold, including spouses and kids, and everyone has fun. I dunno what's wrong with that....

Fg (catchy sign-off, eh?)

[martinibelgian]

Floodgate,
I'm aware of it - and if you were to limit it to single shot, outside hammer (why not US-made only, while you're at it?) rifles, you're throwing away about 80% of the contents. Such boards should be named something like BPCR NRA silhouette or something like that, as even LR BP NRA-legal rifles shouldn't apply - after all, they can be hammerless, and don't need to be of a US-made contemporary design...
IMO the Swiss Vetterli qualifies 100% in its original BP form, and was one of the most advanced designs of the era (even if they're not my thing, but that's something else...)
I don' t want to argue with CM, but there's something else out there besides Sharps, Stevens and Hiwalls...

[montana_charlie]

To comment (without argument) I would have to say you are correct, Sir.
There are trapdoors, rolling blocks, and Maynards, to name three additionals that DO qualify as BPCR arms.

If I were in the competition segment of BPCR shooters, I would not even object to a proposal to include Martinis and Borchardts in the class, as I doubt they provide a significant advantage over (say) a Hiwall.

It is something to wonder about, though, when an 1885 Winchester is an accepted "BPCR" rifle, while the 1886 Winchester is not.
Developed with a year of each other, both chambered for "buffalo calibers" loaded with BP, and both even having those pesky outside hammers...the descrimination boggles the mind.
But, if a .45/90 levergun can't make the cut, how does a 6.5mm bolt action do that?

Maybe it was true when Mason to Dixon, "You gotta draw the line someplace."

CM

[martinibelgian]

CM,
I wouldhave to agree with you on the 6.5 issue - those conversions don't belong here. And yes, thet Win 1886 shouldn't be a problem. But there's a difference between a discussion board and whatever the powders that be decide is allowable or not for competition - a bit like politics and lawmaking, no use trying to find any logic in it. I'll just keep shooting whatever pleases me, even if I'm the only one on the firing line with a Martini - at least I will look good!

[Buckshot]

...............If it contains BP as the propellant it's welcome here be it Martini's, Mausers, Comblains, Werndels, or Wankel's :-). And even a MODERN gun like a Siamese Mauser in 45-70 with BP, if one were so inclined (or tilted?).

................Buckshot

[Morgan Astorbilt]

I wasn't allowed to use my original Sharps Borchard .38-55 in BPCS, because it had no hammer, while most of the shooters were shooting replica single shots. Got so PO'd, I wound up selling it, to my regret. It was stocked and barreled by P.O.Ackley. Beautiful myrtle stock.
Morgan

[Boz330]

Not to stir the pot here but the game was based around the Buffalo and target rifles used in the 1870s and 80s, which were primarily exposed hammer single shots. I'm not saying it is right or wrong just the way it was. If it was Buffalo guns only it would primarily be Trapdoors, Sharps, and Rollers. Many of the allowable rifles were designed and built after the Great Buffalo Hunts.
There were probably some of the other guns that found there way to the west but not that many.
BTW I have several Martinis, hoping to get one of the reproduction Peabodys when they are available. They are supposed to be NRA legal. Shot an original over the weekend, a real hoot.

Bob

[45 2.1]

BTW I have several Martinis, hoping to get one of the reproduction Peabodys when they are available. They are supposed to be NRA legal. Bob

Who is making the Peabodys and when are they supposed to be available?

[jhrosier]

Most of the shooting "games" have rules to protect the gamers from the great unwashed (that's us.)
That is their business, but I think that they are missing the boat by not being more tolerant.
Comradship, like found here, goes a long way in promoting and growing the shooting sports. :drinks:

Jack

[jhrosier]

Who is making the Peabodys and when are they supposed to be available?

http://www.peabodyrifles.com/

I'm starting to get interested but the prices, when they are announced, may dampen my enthusiasm.

Jack

[13Echo]

As far as I know only BPCR Silhouette restricts the firearms to exposed hammer, single shots from a restricted time period with further restrictions on weight, stock design, cartridges allowed. If you want to shoot Creedmore the firearms allowed are more inclusive and for buffalo and gong shoots like the Quigley, almost anything goes. Apparently many local shoots will allow non-qualified rifles to be shot but they won't count for score. I'm sorry the Borchardt wasn't included in BPCR Silhouette but "them's the rules". The rules are restrictive and enforced so competitors know exactly what to expect and it has kept down the appearance of "raceguns". The rules aren't to keep out the "Great unwashed" so much as to keep the playing field level.

Jerry Liles

[JoeBrotch]

I have an 1881 converted to centerfire I am selling if interested.

Frank Ambruso
226 F Street
Redwood City, Ca 94063

Home: 650-363-1651

Cell: 650-504-8401

[batjka]

It's been a while, but I finally am purchasing an Italian Vetterli-Vitali in 10.4x47R. Woo-hoo!!! It's Russian-marked and has a tremendous history, having been used in WW1, in Russian Civil War, and then in Spanish Civil War. I was looking for it for a long while, but now she's mine!

So, here comes the question: how do you load for one? What dies, bullets, brass? What are the best sources of Vetterli reloading components? Has anyone had any experience ordering from gadcustomcartridges.com? They have 20 rounds for $30 as well as bullets.

Any help is appreciated.

[mazo kid]

If you did get some of Gad's ammo you would save a lot of time in trimming and fireforming either .348 Win. or 8mm Lebel. Lee makes 10.4 reloading dies for the Vetterli; I don't know if they would full length size the 47mm length of the Italian gun completely. A call to Lee might answer the question. They also have a .430 310 grain bullet mold which works well in the Vetterli.

[prs]

I looked at that boolit on the Lee charts and it seems to be a gas check design; is that correct. If I were to have PRS version made using a nice heavy non-gas check flat base, plus teh bige ole PRS lube groove; would anyone here be interested? If enough, maybe Dick Dastardly would broker it for us. Dick already has a .429/.430 boolit like that, but its too light -- its for 44/40.

prs