What was the standard 45-70 bullet for 1886

[Just Duke]

What was the standard 45-70 bullet weight and profile for 1886 with smokeless powder?
I kind of wanting to replicate it for a couple 1886 rifles I am looking to pick up.
Just wanting to relive the old west so to sense. Black powder makes me nervous so I want to stay with smokeless.
Also which profile is more accurate, the round nose or the flat nose.
TIA,
Duke

[Lloyd Smale]

540s at 2000 fps;) ;) just look at your avatar name. you should know that!! serously i have no clue. there wasnt really a standard ammo for an 86. they were shot with what could be found I would guess that lots of it was roundnosed pure lead probably around 400 grain and probably loaded in the 1300 fps range.

[charger 1]

The gould 330 grain. However if'n you take the notion to put an RCBS 405 over 37 grains of RL7 you'll have no dissapointments. I've since HP'd that mold and cut that group to one worm hole. If your gettin an older one with slower twist and the 86 Gods smile on you so its not a gravel road bore you'll find they do quite well
http://usera.imagecave.com/chargerdive/HPIM1069.JPG

[Just Duke]

The gould 330 grain. However if'n you take the notion to put an RCBS 405 over 37 grains of RL7 you'll have no dissapointments


Is that you in the avitar Charger? Your bear? If so, what lever is that action and caliber if I may ask?

[Just Duke]

The gould 330 grain. However if'n you take the notion to put an RCBS 405 over 37 grains of RL7 you'll have no dissapointments. I've since HP'd that mold and cut that group to one worm hole. If your gettin an older one with slower twist and the 86 Gods smile on you so its not a gravel road bore you'll find they do quite well
http://usera.imagecave.com/chargerdive/HPIM1069.JPG

They are both new in the box Charger. One is take down and the other is not. That is some good shooting there.:drinks:
What rifle are you shooting those great groups out of?

[charger 1]

year one production
http://usera.imagecave.com/chargerdive/HPIM1068.JPG

[Just Duke]

Wow! Thats nice. If she ever comes up for sale give me a jingle first. That is a great rifle sir.

[6pt-sika]

When I first started casting it was for the 45-70 .

The first bullets I cast were the Lee 340 and 405 tumble lubed and loaded as cast . Surprisingly they shot very well , but I never liked the alox on the nose , so I ordered from Lyman the 330 Gould HP mould and never looked back !

However I do have one complaint with the Gould bullet and that is the fact that its in a single cavity mould .

I still use it but more for hunting then shooting paper any longer !

I however really really like the pair of Ranch Dog moulds and have a 6 cavity of the 350 grainer on the way when his buy comes in !

Sad to say it looks like a 6 cavity of the 425 grainer will never happen , but you can still turn out a bunch of these bullets working a pair of double cavity moulds at the same time [smilie=1:

[Don McDowell]

The standard factory loads for 45-70 were the 405 gr bullet at a claimed 1300 fps, and the 500 gr bullet at 1200 fps. The 500 gr load was dropped in the 1930's , but the 405 gr lived on until the rebirth of the 45-70 and then folks forgot all about what it did in the beginning.

[Just Duke]

I have broused the mould catalogs and seen the 500 grainer but most traditional round nose don't have gas checks. What would be the velocity to load these at without gas checks?

[Rowdy]

I shoot the Lee 459-405 HB that is close to the original 500gr bullet in exterior dimensions. In my Marlin 1895 CB using Trail Boss. I shoot it as cast, pan lubed, at 1100 fps and very accurate. But would not use it in a tube magazine, for single shot only.
I have lapped my mold to cast .462 on the rear driving band.

[Ricochet]

Nothing's wrong with loading those boolits to original blackpowder velocities in the 1200-1300 FPS range. The 330 grainers out of a .45-90 went something like 1500-1550 FPS, which is about the top end of the range the plain based boolits generally like.

[Just Duke]

Nothing's wrong with loading those boolits to original blackpowder velocities in the 1200-1300 FPS range. The 330 grainers out of a .45-90 went something like 1500-1550 FPS, which is about the top end of the range the plain based boolits generally like.


Respectfully "NO WAY!!!" lol To much chance of ka-boom. I live in Vegas but I am no way a gambling man. lol
I'll stick with smokeless powder.;)

[Just Duke]

I shoot the Lee 459-405 HB that is close to the original 500gr bullet in exterior dimensions. In my Marlin 1895 CB using Trail Boss. I shoot it as cast, pan lubed, at 1100 fps and very accurate. But would not use it in a tube magazine, for single shot only.
I have lapped my mold to cast .462 on the rear driving band.

Was the original 500 grain a flat nose Rowdy?

[Don McDowell]

Respectfully "NO WAY!!!" lol To much chance of ka-boom. I live in Vegas but I am no way a gambling man. lol
I'll stick with smokeless powder.;)

:roll: You're alot more likely to ruin a fine old rifle like that one by doing stupid crap like shooting smokeless powder than you ever would by loading blackpowder, just the way it was designed to use.:???:

[Old Ironsights]

I just bought a Lyman/Gould HP for my 2001 1886 TD and also ordered a Ranch Dog 460-425gc.

I honestly don't think I'll need anything more than that, and if I do, I'll order some Monolithic Solids first. ;)

[Jon K]

Ditto, Ditto what Don said. Duke, you can't double charge BP, like you can smokeless.

Just for fun, in my 1895 CB, I loaded 60 gr Swiss 1 1/2 FG behind a 410 gr RN(2.575oal/WLRM/.060 wad), and took it to the range yesterday, shot accurate, and wasn't as dirty as I anticipated. I didn't get a chance to chronograph it, maybe next time.

Jon

[Lloyd Smale]

My GOD thats beautiful. Ive wanted an 86 forever and just found a good deal with some trading on a newer tang safety win. light weight rifle and i was proud of that up till i saw this post!!!!
year one production
http://usera.imagecave.com/chargerdive/HPIM1068.JPG

[Rowdy]

Was the original 500 grain a flat nose Rowdy?

It was a round nose, like this.[smilie=1:

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k114/Rowdy_444/100_2644.jpg

[Just Duke]

Which mould is that Rowdy? That's some good shootin.:drinks:

Hollow base? Is that for Black Powder Rilfes?

405 Grain ?
13 grains of Trail Boss
What would the velocity be Rowdy?

[Just Duke]

One of the 1886 Rifles I ordered (the non take down) arrives Monday. :-D
I will post pics on another thread when she arrives.

[NickSS]

The 45-90 was Winchesters name for the Sharps 45 2.4 inch case. Winchester loaded this case with 90 gr of powder and a 300 gr bullet and called it the 45-90. This was an express load that was designed for hunters. Express loads were the super high velocity rounds of their day and the rifles that shot them had a slow twist to stabilize them. They were none to accurate past 200 yards or so. Other rifles that were made with a faster twist (1in 20 or so) shot ammo that was labled 45 2.4 Sharps. By the way the Government loaded 80 gr of powder and their 500 gr round nosed bullet in the 2.4 inch case, and Sharps loaded a 550 paper jackedted slug and 100 gr of powder in the 2.4 inch case. So pick your load it was probably used by someone at sometime in the 45-90 case.

[Boomer Mikey]

Respectfully "NO WAY!!!" lol To much chance of ka-boom. I live in Vegas but I am no way a gambling man. lol
I'll stick with smokeless powder.;)

The 1886's are fabulous rifles... Charger 1 that's one beautiful rifle!

Duke,

You'll give up and call a truce before the rifle will; 45-70's don't need gas checks unless you're looking for a high velocity load or refuse to use boolits large enough (0.461"-0.462"). 350 - 405's will do anything you need to do in North America at 1300 - 1500 fps but 1000 - 1200 fps will be more enjoyable and 1300 fps with a 405 will make you feel like you've been "NUKED" if you forget to plant the rifle against your shoulder properly.

If you prefer reduced loads, Trail Boss is a good powder to work with and the Lee 405 hollow base boolit is a good one to use when cast on the soft side (BHN 8-12) as it's base will expand to fill oversize barrel grooves.

If you really must have a GC boolit, RCBS 45-300-FN P\N 82051 and 45-405-FN+ P\N 82053's are as good as any.

The RCBS 45-325-FN-U P\N 82045 and recent 462420-PB group buy mold are my favorite plain base molds for the 1886 and 1895 rifles.

Boomer :Fire:

[w30wcf]

DUKE NUKEM,

1890's Winchester catalogs illustrated 4 different .45-70 cartridges:
.45-70-300 r.n.f.p.
.45-70-330 hollow point
.45-70-350 r.n.f.p.
.45-70-405 r.n.

These were lead bulleted cartridges loaded with 70 grs. of b.p.

The .45-70-405 smokeless factory cartridge used flat nosed metal patched bullets (jacketed) over 28grs. of DuPont No. 1 bulk smokeless. That can be replicated with 28 grs. of 4198.

Rowdy,
Great shooting!!

w30wcf

[Old Ironsights]

... 45-70's don't need gas checks unless you're looking for a high velocity load or refuse to use boolits large enough (0.461"-0.462"). ...

My (2001) Win 1886 TD slugs at .456... wouldn't .462 be a bit more oversize than prudent?

[Boomer Mikey]

My (2001) Win 1886 TD slugs at .456... wouldn't .462 be a bit more oversize than prudent?

Not at all; if they chamber freely, lever gun chambers are typically on the sloppy side. We may not be able to use a longer COL in lever guns due to feed length issues but we can improve chamber/throat/cartridge alignment with boolit diameter. Same idea with partially sized cases... why full length size if they're going to rattle around excessively? Sure, size to chamber freely but not sloppy. A Redding Profile Crimp die can provide additional uniformity to hand loads using minimum chamber clearance.

5 out of 5 of my 45-70's will chamber 0.461" boolits.

Sure, 0.005" oversize boolits will develop higher pressures than 0.002" oversize boolits would but nothing approaching the pressure a 0.458" Jword bullet would in the same 0.456" bore.

That's why we make hand loads for each of our rifles, not reloads to fit any rifle.

Boomer :Fire:

[Old Ironsights]

OK, so what you are saying is that I should see what my RD 460 drops at, then try to load it unsized. If it chambers, then I'm good. If it binds I need to size down.

I'm picking up a .457 sizer this week and had already planned on opening it up a little, but it's hard to put metal back on...

I haven't checked my 457122 yet, but I don't think it's going to drop at .460...

[Boomer Mikey]

Sorry Duke Nukem, I didn't intend to hijack the thread but this info will make it easier to find those excellent cast boolit groups everyone searches for.

The old 0.001" - 0.002" over groove diameter convention would be fine if rifle chamber/bores were made to SAAMI specifications. Sizer die and loading die manufacturers provide us with "Reloading" dies that will work with everything (under size to fit in any chamber).

The best way to figure out things is to make an impact cast or Cerrosafe cast of your chamber including the throat and compare it with measurements of a boolit and case. For many; this is too much work, so make a dummy cartridge with an unsized boolit and see if it chambers OK. As you say, you can size down from there.

Generally, if the boolit drops from the mold large enough and chambers why make it smaller? The only reason to size boolits is to make them small enough to chamber or/and to apply lube. One of the reasons our group buy forum is so popular is because guys are searching for larger diameter boolits to fit oversize chambers/throats/bores properly.

After going through the process a dozen times or more you begin to get a general idea of what will fit in most rifles for a given caliber... for 45-70 it's 0.461" - 0.462", for 44/444 rifles it's 0.432" - 0.434", for 45's it's 0.454" - 0.456" and for 357/358 rifles it's 0.359" - 0.360". Of course, there are always exceptions like Freedom Arms revolvers with perfect chamber/bore dimensions.

Sizing dies for these "oversize" boolit diameters aren't available commercially as a catalog item in most cases, and you'll need to get one opened up or open one up yourself. You can order custom size H&I dies from Buffalo Arms and Buckshot has been making them for our guys with outstanding quality. If you own a lathe, even a Mini-Lathe they're easy to make. Buckshot has; on several occasions, posted how to make them and how to open them up to produce boolits at the size you desire.


Boomer :Fire:

[EDK]

You might want to buy/borrow a copy of Mike Venturino's SHOOTING LEVER GUNS OF THE OLD WEST. He has some data and a lot of historical information.

MARLIN submitted their 1881 lever gun in 45/70 in government trials, but had EXPLOSIONS IN THE MAGAZINE using the government issue ammo. In old LYMAN cast boolit books (the little spiral bound jobs from the 60s/70s; wish I had more and had taken better care of the ones I have!) they specifically identify boolits for the MARLIN 45/70.

A flat point boolit in your lever gun magazine is not a discretionary item!

:cbpour: :redneck: :Fire:

[405]

Thanks w30wcf for the catalog info! I imagine that's about as original as it gets :mrgreen:

Duke Nukem,
I think owners of 86s would have used any type of ammo they could get but some may not have worked thru the 86's tube mag repeater action. The nose lengths, profiles of some of the 45-70 ammo available during the '86s time were designed for single shots like the trapdoor. BTW, I've had excellent luck using 300-350 gr RNFP cast bullets in my original Win 86s.

Here's a pic of three original 45-70s from the late 1800s. The headstamp on one, a service cartridge, is dated '92. I think all three are from that era. All are loaded with black powder and no I'm not going to dismantle to weigh the charges or study the powder or study the bullets :) Two of the cartridges are WRA headstamped.

45-70s from left to right....

500gr RN.........................nose length= .640
400-405gr RN..................nose length= .425
330gr (Gould) HFP...........nose length= .385