Recommendation sought 45-70 general advice to get started

[stubbicatt]

Guys, today I pick up my Winchester High Wall manufactured in 1888, if I researched the serial number correctly. It is chambered in 45-70. I have no components nor mould just yet. I do not intend to shoot it for BPCR silhouette or any sort of long range shooting or competition at this time, but for occasional plinking etc. once in awhile. I do intend to load black in the not too distant future, but for now trapdoor level smokeless loads. I have been reading all I can about different boolit moulds, and am inclined to either get a 405 or 500 grain mould with the "government" bullet, which has a rather short nose section and broad, flat meplat.

I have to determine bore diameter first, but to do that I need a soft lead ball or slug. To do that I need a mould of sufficient diameter I guess to cast a suitable ball or slug. A cart/horse conundrum it seems, unless one of you has a good idea. I suppose I could do a chamber cast of cerrosafe.

I'm not sure whether to get a gas check mould or plain base. I reckon 30-1 or maybe a little richer alloy, if I can get it to shoot.

I'm seeking recommendations as to the best method to arrive at bore diameter, then which mould, which brass, to arrive at a suitably accurate big bore plinking round. Which dies do you prefer?

Thanks in advance.
Stubb.

[s mac]

You can use a fishing weight, or make a mould by drilling a hole in a piece of wood for your slug. Use soft lead.

[swamp]

Are you near Denver? If you are I could walk you thru slugging the bore and help with boolit choice. 45-70 is one of my favorites. I have a few moulds for it.

swamp

[country gent]

There are some little tricks to use for doing this. A few suitable slugs for getting bore size are easy enough you want at least 4. These need to be expanded to .465 or so diameter. 2-3" from throat, center of barrel, 2-3" from muzzle and one through the barrel. the first 3 will show any "choke" or taper to bore along with dimensions at certain points. The last will show the tightest spot in the bore. For slugs if you have some soft 45 cal pistol bullets these can be expanded to suitable size in a smooth jawed vise or lightly tapping nose with bullets base resting on a solid surface. Go slow and check often, Nice thing with the vise is after the first bullet marking top dead center of handle will repeat compression pretty close. A fishing sinker of appropriate size will also work well. Lightlyoil bore and slug used a square ended round bar to push slug. I perfer a shorter one to start and long to remove and or push thru. 3/8 will work for 45 cal but 7/16 is better. A wrap of electrical tape every couple inches to keep rod from bore contact helps alot. Electricl shrink tubing can also be used if it dosnt make the rod to big. Start slug and with a 1-2 lb hammer push lug into bore to depth. and drive back out. The blow used isnt really a hit but a heavy pushing type blow. A solid padded vise to hold the rifle makes this much easier also. drive slugs and id as done with a magic marker as to breech (B) muzzle (M) center (C) and thru (T). mark this on the base. Measure carefully with good accurate michrometers and record dimensions in rifles records for future refrence. ( also if questions later on a new set cn be made to compare throat and bore wear over the time number of rounds fired between the 2 sluggings.

[stubbicatt]

Thanks fellas. I think this rifle has a single, set, trigger... but then I digress.

Swamp, I am near Denver. I'll send you a PM with my contact information.

I have slugged the bore of a 357 magnum revolver and carbine years ago using a 36 caliber (.375") round ball, and had thought to try to duplicate this approach. So I have a pretty good idea *how* to do it, I'm grateful for the suggestions/advice concerning where to find a suitably sized lead plug.

[bob208]

.490 round balls for a .50 muzzle loader should get you close. drive them through a 15/32 hole. that will get you a .4687 slug.

[Bent Ramrod]

You shouldn't need a gas check boolit at the velocities and pressures you will be using in your High Wall. A good design to start with is the Lyman 457124, or, if you want the heavier ball, the 457125. I've never had a problem finding good loads for either of these designs, and I have four .45-70's, one a High Wall. Some design that's a lot more esoteric (and expensive) might give incrementally better results for target shooting or whatever, but my advice is to get one of these two and get oriented with them first.

Ask one of your muzzleloading buds for a .44 or .45 caliber round ball to slug your barrel with. If it's too small, flatten it a little on a vise with a ball peen hammer before tapping it down the barrel.

[John Taylor]

For slugging bores I use a round ball that will go in the bore and then slide a brass rod in from both ends and hit the ball to expand it then push it out. You can feel tight or loose spots if there are any. I check barrels quite often this way when rifling them to make sure the groove depth is right.

[218bee]

If you try BP, Ive always found the LEE 405HB works well

[EDG]

Dies???
That is a good question depending on how much you want to spend and what kind of bullets you are going to shoot.

Some seaters might not be large enough inside to seat a .462 bullet like some I load.
I think the Redding Competition seater is probably the best seater but it is very expensive. It is nice to use but I am not sure that you get much accuracy improvement.
Standard seaters that I think are ok - RCBS, Redding and Lyman (Lee seaters are poor with short bullets)

If you need to vary expander diameters there are several companies that sell custom expanders to fit the RCBS, Lyman and Lee dies.
You can check those out at Track of the Wolf for the Lee expanders and the others are at NOE bullet molds and at Buffalo arms.

Standard expanders that are ok Lyman, RCBS, Redding
The Lee is one of the sorriest things around with the Lee expander plug but the custom plugs sold by Track of the Wolf work pretty well in the Lee die body.

Resizing dies - I like open top dies that are easier to clean

That said some of the best dimensioned dies are closed top.

Older RCBS dies (1960s to early 1980s) have a removable top bushing for the decapping rod and are easy to clean out but tend to be too tight (size too much) in the lower half of the die.

The later RCBS dies have a closed top but the interiors are better dimensioned.

Lee FL dies are closed on top but have some of the best internal sizing dimensions very similar (or better) to the later RCBS dies.

Redding dies internally have a short neck section. The body is left larger but the length of the sized neck is short.
Makes for good body sizing but a gas check might be unsupported if a bullet is seated more than one caliber deep.
Redding also makes a neck die if you would like to play with that. It only sizes the neck about 1 caliber deep.

I do not have a Lyman 45-70 dies but based on my 40-65 Lyman dies the Lyman M expander is excellent.

I think that the best off the shelf set of 45-70 dies to be used without modification would be close to a 3 way tie between Lyman, RCBS and Redding.

If I put an ideal set together I would use the Lee expander body with custom expander plugs or custom expander plugs in the RCBS, Lyman and Redding dies.
The standard seater I would use would be either of the Lyman, RCBS or Redding.
Get both the long and short seating punches for the standard Redding dies. They sent me the short punch (for long heavy bullets) at no charge.
If you can afford it the Redding Competition is better but it might not accept the fatter bullets. The seater bore is .4615 in my die. So I have to size my .462 bullets to .460. I don't have a .461 sizer die.

The RCBS Cowboy seater would be good seating oversize bullets up to about .461 or so.

If want to use a die set off the shelf with no added dies I would favor the RCBS Cowboy dies. I do not own a set but I have them in 40-65 and they are very good.

[stubbicatt]

OK. Update is due, and more questions.

I bought a Lyman 500 grain government mould, which turned out to be a really sorry purchase, throwing bullets at their largest diameter at .456 and .452 at the smallest base ring diameter. This mould was returned and exchanged for a Hoch nose pour 510 grain "government" mould, which casts .459 to .460. Very happy with this mould. Round consistent bullets.

On recommendation I bought RCBS "cowboy" dies, which work well. Though I have only used the expander plug die and the seating die, not having sized any new cases.

I loaded up 25 cases yesterday, shot 24 of them this morning, and my shoulder still hurts! (I talked some unwitting bystander into touching off the 25th cartridge... he gave me a look of betrayal as he handed the rifle back.) I used the starting load of AA5744 in effort to fire form for black powder later. The sights are still off, as I forgot to bring some sort of rest. I was able to get close from a seated, unsupported, position, but they are pretty good for elevation but still shooting to the right. That is an easy cure next time I go to the range.

Strange phenomenon. I took brand new Starline brass, ran it over the expander plug until the mouth flared sufficiently to accept the base drive ring of a bullet, and seated the bullets. I did not crimp the case mouth, and so it remained expanded, and chambered freely, no resistance, and required no extractor action to simply fall out of the chamber when the muzzle was tilted up. Upon firing, the case mouths have returned to nearly new, unsized, unexpanded dimensions. Without resizing any fired cases, I expanded one of them large enough to accept a lubed bullet, and oddly, it was a hand press fit into the case after passing the case mouth... just what I wanted for black powder loading, but it leaves me with an icky feeling. I had to run the expander plug about ¼ turn deeper to get it to flare the case mouth, suggesting to me that the cases have shrunk upon firing. Measurements confirm.

New brass measures 2.096" long, fired, unflared, unsized, fired brass measures 2.093" and flared and fired brass measures 2.092"

If only the last .04 to .05 or so inch of the case mouth is "flared" by the step in the expander plug, and the remainder of the neck is large enough to accept a .460 bullet, press fit by hand. What is pinching down the very end of the case mouth itself? I am guessing that perhaps upon firing, brass may have flowed into the "leade" of the chamber and been pinched off there? This doesn't really make any sense to me. This theory suggests the brass is too long, but it is shorter than new brass which chambers easily, even with the mouth flare intact.


What do you fellas think? What gives here?

[EDG]

I think your Starline brass is very hard and very springy at the case mouth. Lightly anneal a few cases about 1/2" down the case mouth and it will quit springing back.

[Hiwall55]

Yeah,I always anneal twice with new Starline brass.

[stubbicatt]

Another update. Shot 5 black powder loads yesterday, and 14 smokeless. I must be getting used to things with this rifle. Sure is a lot of fun. I was able to load 53 grains of 1.5F Olde Eynsford powder with a cardboard wad and the 510 grain Hoch "government" bullet. About .1 inch compression. I understand that balloon head brass was used as well as some different techniques, but that's a far cry from 70 grains of powder under the bullet! Perhaps one could get a couple more grains of 2F in there? Still, far from 70 grains.

The recoil is not severe, but I have great admiration for the Snuffies who carried and shot trapdoor rifles throughout the latter part of the 19th century. Those fellas were what? 5 foot 5 inches or thereabouts for the most part, maybe 130 pounds? That's a lot of gun for a gentleman that size.

About annealing: Man, I just don't want to have to purchase yet another expensive gadget, and I don't trust my skills with a propane torch and lug nut socket, rigged to spin slowly in an electric drill. Over on Accurate Shooter there is or was a guy who advertised that he could anneal folks' brass for a fee. On the other hand, I've heard about decapped cases and dipping in 700 degree melted lead for an anneal. Any other options?

[rfd]

i only black powder load into "fire formed" brass and no longer ever load a .45-70 with that nasty white stuff to fire form new brass. instead, i use a BACO .460" straight expander to prep new brass (starline or ww) to accept a thumb set .459" sized bullet. works even without annealing that hard starline brass (though annealing first is best). those are my only needs for a press - compressing the bp or expanding new brass. once the brass is truly fire formed, and is soft enuf via that process or annealing, i'm good to go. the best neck tension is no neck tension.

[Lead Fred]

I'm not sure whether to get a gas check mould or plain base. I reckon 30-1 or maybe a little richer alloy, if I can get it to shoot.


Got two words for you: Paper Patch

I was gonna sell off my H&R BC, fore I could not get it to group over 150 yards for nothing.

I slugged the barrel, did a chamber cast. Then mailed the numbers off to Canada, where a guy made me a adjustable mould
custom for that rifle. At full length its 540gr, shortened all the way its 355 grs.

I started out full length, and cranked it down until I got good groups.

I now use that mould for my other 45/70s, but it works best in the long barrel

[Bent Ramrod]

If you have the torch, you've got the expensive part already. Go to your local resale store and find two cake or pie pans that fit one inside the other. Fill them with water so that the top one has water up past the web of the shell and will float and spin freely on the water in the lower one.

Put a shell in the center, spin the upper pan and play the torch on the case mouth till you see a brownish/bluish discoloration go halfway down the case and the water around the shell is boiling. Knock the case over with the torch, fish it out,and put in the next one. Repeat 49 times.

If you use grease groove bullets, that should set you up for at least a few months' worth of firings and reloadings. Paper patch may need it more often. It shouldn't take an hour and the capital investment should be about $2, if you already have a torch.

You can squish Olde Eynsford a good deal more than 0.1". I use 66 grains OE 1-1/2 under a 540 gr boolit (with card wad) and it shoots good to a half mile or more.

[stubbicatt]

I must say, after reflection, I like shooting black powder. I am still digesting the experience and mulling it over in my mind, trying to glean any lessons I can from it for the next outing.

Do you fellas find that different amounts of compression improve the fouling or do you find that with more compression you get crustier fouling, more difficult to remove? Reason I ask is what I do with the rifle is glorified plinking, and while poor accuracy is not acceptable, gilded edge accuracy doesn't really matter to me, but I would like to be able to shoot several cartridges without needing to resort to what I see as extraordinary measures like blow tubes or wiping between shots. *IF* after 5 rounds I didn't see anything crusty in the bore, I wonder how 10 will do, or 20, before having to clean the bore. That and the simple cleaning regimen, say at 20 rounds, could make a convert out of me.

I was able to clean up the 5 black powder shots with 2 patches of moose milk, and a dry patch. After I switched to the AA5744, I shot 14 rounds and called it a day. It took 3 or 4 wet patches and a brush to get the bore clean, using harsh solvents, once I got home. I don't remember how many dry patches. It seems that one gains authenticity, accuracy, and easy clean up when he uses black powder. I find these to be advantages. The only disadvantage I can see is the comparatively longer time actually loading cartridges, the wad, compression, etc., that one futzes with using black powder. But on the range, it pays off.

Thanks so much.

ETA: Though I notice my fired cases readily accept a thumb seated bullet, and I don't have to resize, expand, etc., which may turn out to be a time saver, overall.