The danger of off-body carry

[Petrol & Powder]

There seems to be an increase in modes of "Off-Body" carry, that is means to carry a concealed firearm in something that's not attached to the user. Purses, backpacks, briefcases, musical instrument cases, sports equipment cases, dedicated vehicle holsters, etc.
I'm not opposed to the concept of off-body carry in general and like all firearms related issues; it comes down to the responsibility of the individual. My concern is for the general increased potential for the user to become separated from his/her firearm or to lose control of his/her firearm.
Off-body carry can offer an attractive option to concealed carry but I fear tragic events related to losing control of the firearm will come to outweigh the advantages. It is human nature to say, "But I'm careful and it will not happen to me", or "I'm not like that guy". The question is not so much about individual actions but more about the overall increase in opportunities for failures.

With the exception of some specialized duties that may require concealing firearms close to the user, I see little benefit from off-body modes of concealed carry in everyday situations. I'm not talking about someone with a handgun or takedown rifle in a backpack while hiking or a gun carried in a vehicle for utility and not personal protection. I'm talking about every day carry for personal protection.

It's one thing to accidentally leave your backpack somewhere with your water bottle, cell phone charger, dirty socks and notebook in it. It's something else altogether to accidentally get separated from your MP5K pistol and 5 -30 rounds mags.

What say you?

[HABCAN]

As you have stated the case, I totally agree with you. Of course, here in Kanuckistan, there's no such thing as 'carry'.

[osteodoc08]

Personal protection is just that, personal. I prefer to keep on body. Exceptions can be made for women who carry in purse if their clothing limits the concealment so long as the purse is on their person and not sat down and left in a shopping buggy or with a child while mamma bear tries on clothes.

[35remington]

I say nobody could carry an MP5K cocealed unless you were an NBA center anyway. I cannot conceive of an arm less likely to be concealed on one's person unless it were a Model 12 duck gun.

Recall the episode where a woman's baby reached into her purse, discharging her pistol and killing her? On her person it would not have happened.

[Petrol & Powder]

I picked the MP5K as an over the top ficitious example because many of the arguements center around, "I want more firepower"; but I hear you.

The tragic event in which the child obtained access to the gun in the mother's purse is exactly type of event I fear would become more common with increased use of off-body carry.
The Off-Body carry didn't cause that mother's death (gross inattention did) but it did help to create the situation where that horrible event was possible.

Great pains are taken in aviation to avoid creating situations in which accidents are possible. The responibility of safety always lies with the people but reducing the opporatunity for accidents adds an addtional layer of safety.

[sundog]

Circumstances will dictate mode of 'carry'. Ever try to conceal a 1911 in your swim trunks at the beach? And I certainly would not willingly go in the water with it unless it was necessary.

[jackhandle]

I would agree with sundog. Employer doesn't allow carry, however 1911 in lunch box which rides in seat next to me through the day is better than no weapon!

[dilly]

I don't like to deal casually in mandates on other peoples' freedom, so I won't say it should be illegal. Personally, I find it inadvisable in most situations except for having it easy to get to in the car. I feel there are lots of places in a vehicle I could access a firearm faster than on my belt, given my small car, sitting down, wearing a seat belt, etc. As that is lockable private property, immobile without keys, I consider it a special case

I got my wife a concealed carry purse when she told me she wanted one, but warned her that she can't leave her purse in reach of children or strangers when she's utilizing that option. She agreed at the danger and doesn't use it very much because she likes to be able to leave her purse laying around. I think a manual safety becomes far more important when the firearm is carried off body.

No off body Glocks for me, thank you.

The concerns for me are, in reverse order of my concern,

1) A gun could more easily be lost or stolen that way. Main concern is loss of money, although keeping guns out of criminals hands is important too.
2) A person could need the firearm when it wasn't available. My wife has been known to put her purse in the sanctuary and go have breakfast in the fellowship hall.
3) A child could pull it out and shoot it. Can you imagine having to grow up knowing you accidentally shot and killed your mom as a toddler?

The manual safety could very likely help in scenario three.

I wonder if they make a biometric, quick access, secure briefcase or something along those lines. Something that would be locked, but present a ready to fire gun at the push of a button without requiring a complete unfolding of the briefcase. I might consider that if I were in the line of work that used briefcases.

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm not opposed to it in all cases but I feel if it becomes a popluar mode of carry we will see an overall increase in unfortuate events. There are times that off-body carry has its merits but I don't think it would be a good thing on a large scale.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I am not a fan of off body carry, if a person chooses to use it they need to be the ones responsible for their gun at all times.

Vehicle carry is a bit different than other forms of off body , it should be out of sight , don't advertize it may be there , and the vehicle should be locked any time your not in it


the very sad reality is , that mothers have been shot by their toddler children , because they placed the concealed carry purse in the cart with the child at the grocery store

it is absolutely scary how fast kids pick things up , we didn't notice it with our kids so early but my niece at less than a year old would take your smart phone and use her thumb to swipe the screen , trying to unlock it both my brother and his wife use their smart phones alot and she was watching.

[bedbugbilly]

I agree with the OP . . but with all things, there are "exceptions".

First though . . . I was always taught that my weapon was MY responsibility . . and that it was my RESPONSIBILITY to keep it under MY control at all times . . . regardless of if it was on me, being carried by me as in hunting, etc. or in my house or place of business (I was self-employed).

I have a friend who is a nurse . . . and of course, she cannot "carry" in the hospital or on the job . . . but, she can have it in her car. She works long hours and has a drive to get to work and get home. In her case . . . I see no problem with "purse carry", etc. BUT . . . she is a responsible person who knows it is her responsibility to keep her handgun under her control at all times . .. .and if left in the car, to see that it is secured. I have no problems at all with situations such as hers . . and several LEO have told her that she should be carrying since she has a CCW for her own safety.

When my wife goes shopping . . . I often just sit in the car and wait . . maybe bring a book or some paperwork to get done. I am always amazed at how many times I see women . . especially those alone . . . of all ages . . . who come back to their cars and fumble around in their purse for several minutes to find their keys. Or, if they have packages . . . they lay their purse on the hood or top of the car . . easily a target for a quick snatch and run. The same goes for shopping in a store . . . they leave their purse . . . often wide open - i.e. unzipped, etc. . . . in their shopping cart while they leave the cart and walk down the isle picking out what they are looking for. In fact, I have on a number of occasions, said something to these women about not leaving their purse unattended and inviting theft. Now maybe they aren't carrying in their purse . . . but if they were . . . . .

And . . it's not only women . . . it's men as well. If carrying in a back pack, bike pouch, etc. . . . all it takes is a few seconds of being un-attended and the firearm could be "gone" . . . without the knowledge on the part of the thief that there is even a firearm in whatever was snatchedd.

In the end though . . . it's up to the individual as to how they "carry". If they have gone through a CCW or CPL licensing class . . . I'm sure that it has been adequately covered about their weapon and their "responsibility". I am permitted in AZ and in MI (CPL) and quite a bit of time was expended on just that topic in all of he classes for the permits as well as other weapon training classes I've taken. Personally, I won't carry if I can't carry "on the person" . . but that's me. If someone wants to carry "off the body" . . . that is certainly their option. Unfortunately . . . even with all the classes and time spent on a person's "responsibility" . . . . you can't teach "common sense". I'm not saying that a person who carries "off the body" does not have "common sense" nor do I mean to offend anyone. What I'm saying is that all it takes is a "lapse" of concentrated thought about sitting something down that contains a weapon and how quickly it can be snatched and "gone". Once "gone" . . . it is too late. I certainly would not want to live with the fact that I "lost" my weapon through "carelessness" and it ended up being used for taking another's life during the commission of a crime.

So if "off the body" is one of the only "options" for a person to carry . . just be aware of where it is at all times and never leave it "unattended".

Just my thoughts .. . . . others have their own. :-)

[MrWolf]

Wish we had that concern in this dang state :evil:

[Artful]

I say nobody could carry an MP5K cocealed unless you were an NBA center anyway. I cannot conceive of an arm less likely to be concealed on one's person unless it were a Model 12 duck gun.

http://www.finnrappel.fi/EagleSMG2.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_D-7-vLzKc

Duck Gun
http://www.campussafetymagazine.com/images/legacy/L-CS7weapons-open-poster.jpg
Only slight modification as used by the shooter in the Naval Shipyard shooting.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BVBtgyrCQAAAuZk.jpg
https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/382926378439426048/photo/1
NOTE: his weapon was NOT an AR15 as widely reported by the Media.

[Artful]

I picked the MP5K as an over the top ficitious example because many of the arguements center around, "I want more firepower"; but I hear you.

Most common option is GLOCK with 33 round stick to go in it.



The tragic event in which the child obtained access to the gun in the mother's purse is exactly type of event I fear would become more common with increased use of off-body carry.
The Off-Body carry didn't cause that mother's death (gross inattention did) but it did help to create the situation where that horrible event was possible.

That and not having a correct conceal carry purse with locking compartment and using it.



Great pains are taken in aviation to avoid creating situations in which accidents are possible. The responibility of safety always lies with the people but reducing the opporatunity for accidents adds an addtional layer of safety.

Poor planing can cause major disasters anywhere in life.

Off-Body is an option that suits many uses - I didn't start CCW until an friend (LEO) mentioned that if I came home and found bad guys armed with my weapons and I didn't have something I would wish I did. I carried a 1911 in a briefcase for many years and felt just fine with it that way. The key is to be observant no matter what your carry method is - remember Col. Coopers(RIP) level's of alertness?

White
In condition White, you are relaxed and unaware of what is going on around you. Ideally, only in white when asleep

Yellow
In condition yellow, you remain relaxed, but are aware of who and what is around you. This merely means that you are paying attention to the sights and sounds that surround you whether you are at home or moving in society. Condition yellow DOES NOT equate with paranoia or any other irrational fear of persons or places. Instead, you simply have moved your alertness to a level of attention that will prevent you from being totally surprised by the actions of another person.

Orange
In condition orange, you have identified something of interest that may or may not prove to be a threat. Until you determine the true nature of whatever has piqued your interest, your “radar” is attuned to concentrate on the possible threat(s) and will remain so focused until you are satisfied no threat exists.

Red
If the focus of your attention in condition orange does something you find threatening, you will shift to condition red.[/FONT][/COLOR]

Notice here that condition Red IS NOT the firing stroke, as some instructors have misconstrued from Cooper’s teachings. Instead, condition red simply changes the focus of your attention from a potential threat to a potential target.

You will only draw your weapon, or move still further to sight acquisition, only if the potential target’s actions dictate such a response. Once you’ve shifted to condition red, you cannot be surprised by your primary adversary and you are fully prepared to repel boarders should he push the incident that far.

But, your intense concentration on a forward threat will lessen your ability to maintain some degree of 360-degree awareness for unknown threats that may come from other directions. Effective training under high-stress conditions will help you avoid the tunnel vision that some describe as “akin to looking through a toilet paper tube.”

[rondog]

I'll continue to carry the BHP in my backpack at work, thank you.

[Petrol & Powder]

Once again- I'm not opposed to it in all cases but I feel if it becomes a popluar mode of carry we will see an overall increase in unfortuate events. There are times that off-body carry has its merits but I don't think it would be a good thing on a large scale.

On a daily basis I see adults separate themselves from their own: backpacks, purses, wallets, keys, cell phones, jackets, rain coats, briefcases, toolboxes and other containers. I'm sure that Off-body carry has its place but I'm fearful that if it becomes widespread it will result in an overall increase in negative events.

I just do not think it is within the envelope of discipline for most people and that includes people responsible enough for CCW permits. Sorry but the Off-body carry requires constant vigilance and VERY few people are capable of that in every day life.

[FergusonTO35]

My rule is, that if a gun is somewhere other than in my hands or otherwise carried on my body, I better be comfortably leaving it there unattended. This not only applies to off the body carry, but other situations. For example, its not a problem if I leave a gun on my workbench in my garage or in the glove box of my car, accidentally or not. Its a huge problem if I leave a gun on the roof of my car while loading things and then drive off, or if I am carrying in a coat pocket and then take my coat off and put it in a public cloak room. If someone ever asked me about carrying in a purse, backpack, briefcase, or other off the body item I would say that the same rule applies. Make sure it is always positively attached to you in some way and never, ever sit that item down even just for a few seconds unless you are comfortable leaving it there unattended.

I always carry in my pocket, IWB, or in a belt holster. When I can't carry, my gun is locked up in my car or truck.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

We had a guy leave his pocket pistol in his vehicle while he got out of the car to pump gas. His child retrieved the gun from under the driver's seat and shot and killed his infant daughter who was in a child car seat. This pocket pistol was equipped with a laser and his young son was fascinated with the laser. The newspaper brought out how the father should have exercised more caution knowing that his child son was fascinated with the laser on the pistol.

Interestingly the 4 universal rules of firearms safety do not include anything about never let your firearm come into the hands of anyone you do not authorize.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

When I say "We had a guy..." I used the term loosely. He was an individual in our community.

I can think of another case where an officer with an agency other than mine was shot in the back of the head by his daughter in the back seat. The papers ran it as an accident however there are reasons to believe the daughter intended to murder him...those reasons will not be discussed here.

[murf205]

Circumstances will dictate mode of 'carry'. Ever try to conceal a 1911 in your swim trunks at the beach? And I certainly would not willingly go in the water with it unless it was necessary.

I can't carry my 1911 in my shorts/swim suit, but a Kel-Tec P3at fits in the pocket very nicely. I take it to the beach regularly, but don't get in the water.

[murf205]

What about belt pouches? Any body know of a good secure belt pouch that doesn't take forever to withdraw a gun from?

[w5pv]

I carried a .22 long rifle derringer for years,while working.Would have been fired if came to light but silence and no brag.Don't let your left hand know what the right is doing so to speak.

[Mike Kerr]

I carry on body when I am not at home. Any other form of carry such as car center console is very very rare. It makes me uneasy when I don't have it on my person. There are a very few exceptions in the course of daily life but the more I carry on my person the less the exceptions come into play.

[Artful]

What about belt pouches? Any body know of a good secure belt pouch that doesn't take forever to withdraw a gun from?

https://www.google.com/#q=pistol+concealed+carry+pouches

I have tried some but I'm not a lover of the zipper closures on them not quick.
OK, to have zippers on something located in front of you like a fanny pack but not on
my hip or back.

[charlie b]

so what do you guys do when you find the need to enter a facility that does not allow ccw?

you cannot carry on body all the time. better to figure out how to deal with it ahead of time. and pulling the weapon out in the parking lot to lock it in the trunk is worse, imho, than leaving it in the "console" all the time.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

so what do you guys do when you find the need to enter a facility that does not allow ccw?

you cannot carry on body all the time. better to figure out how to deal with it ahead of time. and pulling the weapon out in the parking lot to lock it in the trunk is worse, imho, than leaving it in the "console" all the time.


yes when one is going to a federal building . post office , police station , or school there is no option besides leaving it in the vehicle , but hat is locking it secured and out of sight the gun stays in a controlled space , locked and out of sight

yes I make a point of securing my gun before I arrive and while no one can see what I am doing

[Silver Jack Hammer]

The gym is where vehicles get broken into all the time, I hit the swimming pool and like GREENCOUNTYPETE I pull over at my secluded side of the road and lock my pistol securely away before arriving at the pool. I don't carry while swimming laps. Car prowlers have bragged about watching people arrive at the gym parking lot and place their valuables under the seat. The prowlers just break the window after the victim walks into the gym.

[FergusonTO35]

Careful trip planning. I always stow my piece securely before I arrive.

[bearcove]

I think it depends on where you are and are young kids involved. I live in the country mostly and keep a gun in the truck sometimes. Also when I travel for work. Can't take it in to work so it stays in the truck. I don't concealed carry at all. Open carry when out fishing or hunting,hiking,camping...

[Artful]

What about belt pouches? Any body know of a good secure belt pouch that doesn't take forever to withdraw a gun from?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmcyyJ83TNg
go to 30 min in to see a belt carry that looks fast

[Blackwater]

I read an article recently by an old marine who was speaking of survival afield, and he made the comment, "belts and pockets are made for survival; backpacks and carry bags are for convenience." That pretty much sums it up for me, and if we CCW, it's for "survival," and NOT for convenience.

[murf205]

I like the magnets on the Bulldog pouch. IF they are strong enough, they would beat a zipper for not having to fumble with. If you ever need to get to your gun you are going to be excited enough without having to fumble with a zipper and maybe having the little tab break off in your fingers when you REALLY need it to open the pouch!!!

[charlie b]

I have an Uncle Mike's fanny pack. The gun compartment is velcro. Doesn't take long to open it. Perfect for those times when my wearing apparel does not permit on body.

I ride a motorcycle a lot. I have experimented with different carry methods and all of them lack a bit. Best so far is a pants pocket. Problem is having to change layers on cold days or having to 'wet down' on hot days. And frequently done where there is no privacy. Still looking for a good carry method.

[Blackwater]

I have one of those type pouches that imitates a cell phone carrier, and it's nowhere near as fast or reliable as pocket carry, so I never use it. I have some neuropathy in my hands, to I tend to stumble more than some would with it, but I'd still take pocket carry any day over that type of carry. If I have my pants on, I've got that little Taurus .380 on me, 24/7, and it does a good job of staying out of the way while still being there in pocket carry. It's the best pistol and method I've found so far to allow me to carry without any real problems involved, but we all have differing builds, talents and preferences. It helps to have pants with the right sized pockets, of course, that are big enough to hold the particular pistol involved and preferred, and yet small enough to keep it from turning upside down as we move about during the day. Lots of things relate to carrying concealed, and it's the minutae that often have the greatest effect on comfort and efficiency of carry. Lots of ways. We just have to find what works best for each of us, really.

[dragon813gt]

I have an Uncle Mike's fanny pack. The gun compartment is velcro. Doesn't take long to open it. Perfect for those times when my wearing apparel does not permit on body.

I ride a motorcycle a lot. I have experimented with different carry methods and all of them lack a bit. Best so far is a pants pocket. Problem is having to change layers on cold days or having to 'wet down' on hot days. And frequently done where there is no privacy. Still looking for a good carry method.

Tank bag. You don't want it on your person in a crash. It will cause more damage then the crash already will. It causes all types of issues w/ getting it onto your person when arriving at your destination. There is no perfect solution for carrying while on a motorcycle.

[xman777]

I carry in a messenger bag. My work policy is such that it is necessary to do so. I wear an IWB holster and transfer to it when I get in my car. This is not always adhered to because what is the sense of wearing a holster when there is no firearm in it. Therefore the pistol gets holstered in a Velcro style rig on the inside of my messenger bag. It's the best way to assure that I have what I need for my own personal security and my company policy is followed.

I don't think a general "Carrying off body is bad" theme is necessary here. To each his own. Some of us cannot carry where and how we want so we have to improvise.

[AggieEE]

I would prefer on body carry but sometimes not possible. As to walking away from your off body carry, I seem to remember a few years ago, I think they were rent a cops, that left their duty guns in public restrooms. I'm a little to paranoid for that. When I have to use a public I check that I'm not leaving anything when I leave, even if I'm not carrying.

[FergusonTO35]

Hmm, never heard of an employer that allowed you to carry a gun in your bag but not on your person in a holster. Pocket and IWB are my favorite ways to carry. They both have times when they are appropriate. IWB is much faster to draw from but not as secure and more of a chance you'll get exposed. Pocket is more secure and incognito but much slower to draw from and really not suited to any pistol bigger than a small .32 or .380.

[Petrol & Powder]

As for carry on a motorcycle, I've been down that path. I've gone through phases of riding and not riding for most of my life and I'm currently in the no motorcycle phase but based on my record, that will change. Carrying on a motorcycle presents some real challenges.
A high ride, strong side, pancake holster that could be covered by my riding jacket was easiest to conceal and switch from riding gear to street clothes but it requires some pre-planning. (you have to carry a second shirt most times)
Pocket carry was the next best option but required that I transfer the gun from my riding jacket to my pants pocket, which wasn't ideal. I could carry a small revolver in my pants pocket but depending on the bike and riding position, that wasn't always ideal when on the bike.
A dedicated cross draw holster sewn into your riding jacket is also an option and transferring that gun to a pocket can been discretely accomplished if you want to take your jacket off at a destination. I had friends that employed that method but I preferred the single strong-side holster carry.

BTW- blued carbon steel guns and all weather riding do not mix! Concealed carry is demanding on the finish of any gun. Add motorcycles, sweat, rain, heat & cold to concealed carry and you'll gain a whole new understanding of rust :shock:.
Stainless steel, aluminum alloy, polymer, electroless nickel and other high performance finishes become the minimum.

[xman777]

Our rules state that there can be no "printing" (meaning something beneath the clothing shows through) on our clothing. That includes my Copenhagen can! Keys, Phone Etc... Nothing can stick out of my clothes because I work in a cleanroom environment in a full smock with head and feet covers.

[FergusonTO35]

Oh, I see. FYI, my little Kel-Tec P32 does not show at all in a Desantis pocket holster.

As to security guards leaving guns in bathrooms I can believe it. A buddy of mine worked as an armed guard in college, both armored car and on site security. He said that both places were scraping the bottom of the barrel as far as employees go, neither place paid enough to attract anyone with LE or military experience. If you had a pulse and the ability to lawfully carry a gun you were hired. The on site security outfit required no training if you already had your CCW license. The firearms part of the armored car training was almost identical to the Kentucky CCW course. Watch a few hours of videos, sign some forms, and prove that you can place 11 of 20 shots anywhere on a huge silhouette target at 7 yards.