Skipping the sizing process altogether? (And using LFC die to do the job)

[nitrohuck]

I currently do this...

1. Cast bullets from lead alloy
2. dry tumble and powder coat bullets
3. size powder coated bullets one by one through a Lee .401" sizer
4. Load bullets into rounds on dillion 650 with Lee factory crimp die as the final station


My goal is to skip step #3

and simply do this...

1. Cast bullets from lead alloy
2. dry tumble and powder coat bullets
3. Load unsized bullets into rounds on dillion 650 with Lee factory crimp die as the final station


The idea being the LFC die does the sizing step for you...

Has anyone else ever done this? My powdercoated bullets come out to .405" so the LFC die should be swaging them in the case down to spec.

[Cowboy_Dan]

Try a couple and pull them. I get the feeling that when you measure them they will be all over the board. But, it just might work.

[reddog81]

It might work. I have had good luck using .358 bullets in my 9mm cz. I just lube and load the bullets as they are cast.
Some considerations would be that you will have to expand the case mouth considerably in order to get a .405 bullet into a 40 s&w case. If you don't expand the case enough you will be shaving the coating or lead and that Dan cause problems. The bullets will be sized down to different diameters unless all the brass has the exact same thickness.
I'd say try it and see what happens.

[mac60]

I believe Ed Harris once said he did the same thing.

[tazman]

The size of your boolits after going through the FCD will vary with the thickness of the brass casings you use. Yes, it will size them down, but not with the consistency the sizing die will.
Different manufacturers produce brass with different wall thicknesses. This variable is being included when you use the FCD to resize.
If you work with one brand of brass only, the problem will be greatly diminished.

[tazman]

I believe Ed Harris once said he did the same thing.

He did that with 9mm for mass producing ammo for testing purposes. In that situation, he was not worried about accuracy as much as that the cartridges would function in the guns they were testing.
This works great for blasting ammo. Target ammo may require more care.

[GrayTech]

They are unlikely to produce consistent accuracy this way. As long as they will chamber they will shoot though.

[jaysouth]

What size is your mold dropping bullets? If each cavity is consistent and the "as cast" diameter works with you gun, go for it.

[blikseme300]

No matter how good the mold is that you use things don't always work out as planned as slightly oversized CB's will be dropped from time to time. Don't cut corners by not sizing as the targets don't care if your groups are lousy but you might. If time taken to size is of concern look into getting a Star sizer with a feeder & collator.

[bangerjim]

Don't ask us......try it and see if it works for YOUR guns.

I would not do it.....at all. Ever. I rely on the sizing process to bring all my PC'd boolits into spec. But it depends on how your boolit molds drop to size, your casting temp, and your alloy. All can vary the size widely.....the reason for SIZING!!!!!!!


But is it YOUR boolits, YOUR gun, and YOUR time. Do what you find works for YOUR needs. I know what works for me!

Sizing is NOT a waste of time for me and most others I know.

The FCD is not a cure-all for sizing! Not intended for that purpose at all.

bangerjim

[dudel]

Since brass has a different springback than lead, I suspect your neck tension will be very loose. This could result in boolit setback, pressure spikes and other bad things.

You're using a Dillon 650 and trying to cut a step. That makes no sense. Finished round isn't coming out any sooner.

Update: my apologies to OP. It was early. I see now that he is trying to avoid the separate boolit sizing step; not the case sizing step. I still think there will be a problem.

Boolits are sized after PC because they aren't always 1) universally round and 2) the size is inconsistent. Putting a non round, odd sized boolit in the case and having the FCD size it, will certainly happen. The FCD will make it round and will size it (if oversized). The brass will still have a different springback from the lead, and you case tension will vary due to how much the boolit got sized, what kind of brass was used.

I use the FCD, and like it a lot. Ideally, the FCD does very little work. It's like the FCD is serving as a case gauge and post sizing only those rounds that are out of spec so they will chamber. If all your rounds are out of spec and getting a lot of sizing in the FCD, you have a problem that the FCD was not designed to correct.

Look at it this way, a sized case and a properly sized boolit will get very little done to it by the FCD. A sized case, with an unsized boolit is going to stretch the case. Running it through the FCD will resize both the case and the boolit. When it leaves the FCD, the boolit will stay sized; but the brass has some spring back that will leave the boolit looser than before. A loose boolit is not a good thing.

If sizing is too much of a effort, try plated bullets. Sizing is the most tedious part of the whole process. If your lucky, your mold drops a boolit that is spot on (round and correct diameter). Tumble lube and load.

[Tatume]

Don't ask us......try it and see if it works. . . .

Let us know what you learn.

[Blanco]

You're using a Dillon 650 and trying to cut a step. That makes no sense. Finished round isn't coming out any sooner.

Same number of pulls on the handle, So why leave a station open ?

[Handloader109]

A lot does depend on consistency of the cast bullet, and how are y'all PCing? If spray, then you have a LOT better consistency than tumble. I HAVE to size my bullets as coat is heavy and I really don't have any control when swirl them in the bowl. I like the Lee fcd, but all you are going to do is cut into pc. It won't size the bullet. It may shoot, but not as good consistently as a sized bullet. It is still a crimp die.

Oh, guys, he is sizing the bullet before he gets to loading on the 650 B-)

[Litl Red 3991]

Stretching the brass excessively to get an oversized bullet into the mouth, then "sizing" excessively to mash an oversized case and bullet to fit into your chamber does a couple of things. Creating a loosely held bullet has already been mentioned by more than one.

What hasn't been mentioned that I've seen is excessively working the brass. If you don't recover it, no problem. If you do, you just may see split mouths a lot sooner with that brass. And you're hardening those mouths faster, probably creating a wider range of neck tension than usual.

Over the years, my reloading has produced better accuracy and longevity when all the dies used match up with all the others appropriately. And that isn't guaranteed by any die manufacturer so far. And certainly doesn't happen when you throw in the monkey wrench yourself. The Lee Factory Crimp die for example when used to make up for dies that aren't appropriate for the bullet you're using.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

This \/ \/ \/

Since brass has a different springback than lead, I suspect your neck tension will be very loose. This could result in boolit setback, pressure spikes and other bad things...
especially when trying to fix .004" of oversize using a Lee (pistol style) FCD.
Personally I never use the Lee (pistol style) FCD for cast boolits...but others do, seemingly with success :veryconfu

Now, if you could get a mold that would cast an undersized boolit, so when you PC them, they end up at the desired size (.401"). Under those circumstances, I could see getting by without sizing.
That's me 2¢
Jon

[gloob]

You will have poor neck tension.

The brass has to be made smaller than the bullet before you seat. And to get the brass 2 mils smaller than the bullet, the sizer has to bring the case to at least ~4 mils smaller than the bullet diameter, because it'll spring back out about 2 mils when it comes out of the sizing die. You can't move the casemouth 4 mils smaller than bullet diameter with the bullet in the case!

If you do the math, here, your brass is being elastically stretched outward by ~2 mils when your 404 bullet is forced in there. So the new, natural resting position of the ID of the case would be about 402. That's what the ID would measure if you pulled the bullet. When you push this cartridge through the FCD, the case is squished down to about 400-401 ID (depending on the thickness of the brass), which is still within its elastic limit (402-2 = 400); so the case is not sized, at all, by this process. Only the bullet is sized. So the bullet gets squished and stays at around 400-401. Case is still 402. You might retain a frog's hair of tension at the base of the bullet where it got swaged to heck by the case. But essentially your bullets will fall out.

[gloob]

I avoided loading cast 40 for years, because there was no suitable off the shelf expander for this caliber that I could find. I suggest if you want to make life easier, and you haven't already, to research the use of custom oversize expanders. It just might be possible for you to stop powder coating, altogether, and you might even get increased accuracy.

[bangerjim]

I avoided loading cast 40 for years, because there was no suitable off the shelf expander for this caliber that I could find. I suggest if you want to make life easier, and you haven't already, to research the use of custom oversize expanders. It just might be possible for you to stop powder coating, altogether, and you might even get increased accuracy.

Stop Power Coating Altogether???????????? That is blasphemy! :bigsmyl2:

[gloob]

I wouldn't want to deprive anyone of their fun. And powdercoating does look like a good a way as any to pass free time, I suppose. I am not the one to pass any judgment, there. But do look into the issues that might occur with any oversize cast bullet, and how the proper sized expander can improve your shooting. Even with powdercoated bullets!

[MT Chambers]

Why bother sizing the bullet? The Lee die will size that at the same time, smart those Lee people.

[gloob]

It's all fine and dandy if you just need to knock an out of round bullet down by a mil on one edge to ensure reliable chambering. Trying to size a full mil in diameter will wreck your neck tension. Two full mils and say goodbye to all of it. It's not even a question. Smart product? Yeah. Smart implementation by the end user? Not always.

[Garyshome]

The pc'ing will make the boolits out of round. Most pistol boolits do not need pc'ing anyhow just a good lube should take care of it [if it is the proper size in the first place] So they still need to be sized....in my opinion.

[rsrocket1]

I actually did do what the OP asked for a while. I wanted to see if I could get away without buying a Lee .401" sizing kit.
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj96/rsrocket1/Shoot/Powder%20Coating/11cec18b-c949-4324-a90d-cc0b03d2f5b8_zps7924cbfc.jpg

This is how it had to be loaded. The loads worked, but the case length had to be nearly perfect. If the boolit stuck out just a hair higher, the fat bullet would not enter the throat on my M&P 40 which was 0.401" wide. This would cause failure to plunk, failure to chamber and light off-center primer strikes when the slide would stop maybe a few mils from fully closed.

Even when sized to 0.401", if I used the Lee FCD, the brass would swage the bullet down and the powder coat was so slick that I would be able to pull the bullet out with my fingers. I wouldn't get set back because the case was smaller than the bullet, but if I tried to unchamber an unfired round, the bullet would often get pulled out and spill powder all over the gun.

I found the best practice was to coat, size, flare the mouth, load, taper crimp to close the bell.
I'd get good neck tension, nice plunk test, nice shooting bullets with no leading, no smoke from the lube and easy clean up.

The best proof for the OP is to try it yourself. It may work out, and it may not.