1888 Springfield Trapdoor in 45-70 caliber

[KenH]

Hello all - I just purchased an 1884 (edit to correct) Springfield Trapdoor in 45-70 caliber. It seems to be in solid condition, but I do have a question about the bore/rifling. Looking down the muzzle end of bore with light shining in via trapdoor, the bore is shiny with only a few spots showing. The rifling sure looks VERY shallow.

I slugged the barrel and find there are wide rifling lands which are very shallow.... maybe only 1 or 2 thousandths deep? Maybe more - hard to measure. The rifling lands are odd placed so there is no way to measure bore or groove with just a caliper or mic. One side is down in groove while other side is up on top.

Anyway - on these old trapdoors - just how deep is normal for the riflings? I have no experience to speak of with old guns. I've got a Rolling Block 43 Spanish and it has much deeper riflings.

Thanks to all for comments and suggestions,

Ken H>

[varsity07840]

Trapdoors are notorious for inconsistent bore/ groove dimensions. They're usually oversize rather than undersize. My '88 has a .4512 bore and .4638 groove. The groove depth is .0063. Your slug has to be measured with a v-anvil micrometer in order to get accurate measurements.
The gentleman who was kind enough to measure my slug is a visitor to this site. Put out a shout to TexasMac.
Duane

[NSB]

TexasMac <texasmac@sbcglobal.net> Probably one of the nicest gentleman you'll ever meet on any site. He never hesitates to help if he can.

[Piedmont]

Trapdoors have very deep rifling. I would start cleaning the heck out that bore.

[Chill Wills]

KenH - I can't answer your question about your rifle barrel (obviously) but I have had any number of these Springfields and as model/class, they are real accurate shooters.
The barrel measures what it does and I think being the first 45 Gov invented I prefer to think of them as not oversize but loose enough to chamber any round in dirty combat conditions. Being a little large compared to today norm of 0.450 - 0.458" bore - groove was not Springfield's goal.... I was not there at Springfield when they made them :D:kidding: so I could be wrong.
To make yours shoot try starting with soft (er) alloy. 20-1, 30-1 or one part WW mixed with three parts soft lead and 1% tin added, any of those will work.

There are a lot of common bullets around that will work that run just under 0.450" on the nose and cast at least 0.459" + in the body.
A 500 - 535 grain bullet whose nose will go in the rifle muzzle with little play.... just stick it in the end of the barrel and see that it fits close, will likely shoot OK or maybe even very well. This assumes a good grade of BlackPowder. Trying to save on the cost of BP is never going to show you the accuracy of any rifle. If just making a bang is all that is wanted then cheap BP will work and forget accuracy. (I'm not trying to be grumpy -it's just a fact)
Avoid sizing the bullet down.
Try shooting as large in diameter as you can chamber. I'll bet it will surprise you. (or not - I don't want to assume anything about your experience) For me anymore, my Springfield out shoots my ability to see and hold the sights.

Have fun and good luck -Michael Rix

[ndnchf]

One of the best bullets available for that trapdoor is the Lee 90268 hollow base. Its a duplicate of the original 405gr bullet.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/363401/lee-1-cavity-bullet-mold-459-405-hb-45-70-government-459-diameter-405-grain-flat-nose-hollow-base

[KenH]

Thanks to all for the comments and info. My experience with Trapdoors is nil- this is the first I've actually held in my hands, and will be for sure the first I ever shot. My experience with BPCR is only a few weeks old - since I started shooting an old 43 Spanish Reformato I've got. I've also got a Swedish Rolling Block 12.7x44R to be delivered tomorrow (Wed) that should be in really good shape. I've got 50-70 brass to use in it. I'm still waiting to get my 45-70 brass for shooting this Trapdoor.

Duane, NSB: Thanks for the info and I will send an email to Texasmac to request he mic a barrel slug I'd be happy to ship him. He could then toss in trash. I plan also to do a "pound (impact?) chamber cast" in the next few days (got to get brass). That should give me a good throat measurement.

Piedmont: The bore is shiny, both on lands and groove. I don't think cleaning will help make the rifling look any deeper at this point.

Chils: Just how do you define "accurate shooter"? To me, to be accurate a rifle needs at least a min of 1 MOA, maybe better. BUT - all things are relative. What I'd not be able to live with on a varimat rifle, would be fantastic with this trapdoor.

I know me and my old poor eyes - just can't see those iron sights much at all anymore. Anything I'm going to shoot for accuracy will require optical sights of sometype.... and a good rest {g}. Off hand shooting with iron sights I'm lucky to hold a 6" group with my pistol at 20 yds! Not good at all. But then, we were all better 40 yrs ago {g}

Here is a quick 'n dirty barrel slug:
144555
rifle almost deeper in photo but could be .002" or better - let's face it - .002" is pretty small to feel with finger!


Thanks again for the help folks -

[StrawHat]

KenH, welcome to the world of Trapdoors. Here is a website for you to visit. It has descriptions of all the models and if you dig deep enough, recipes for loads.

http://trapdoorcollector.com/

I shoot an 1866 (built in 1866) and an 1873 (built in 1878). Each is different but similar. If you want accuracy, stick with black powder. It is what they were designed to shoot. If you can get one of the "better" powders, great but not necessary. I use GOEX and get it to shoot well but it takes a lot of compression. I am happy to get 3MOA from a Trapdoor and have not yet seen one that groups worse than that. Many will shoot better, but it takes load development and I am not willing to put the time into that endeavor.

The book for reloading ammunition to equal what was put out by the Armory is found here.

http://4570book.info/

It is available in book for or digital. Lots of good solid information with only one or two "facts" that have been proven to be not necessary.

Others will chime in on particulars but the trapdoor is a great old rifle that will deliver the goods when properly loaded.

Oh, they use 3 groove rifling so that makes it hard to measure, but the throat measurement is what I think is more important than the bore or groove. Use the largest boolit that will chamber in the rifle. I do not size for either of mine. 30/1 is a good alloy, I find 20/1 to be a bit too hard. 40/1 is not too soft. Use a black powder lube and spark it with non-magnum primers.

Best of luck and keep asking questions until it all comes together.

Kevin

[KenH]

ndnchf: you posted while I was writing up my post - took me a while to get photo of barrel slug. I like the looks of that mold - I just might have to order it. Never fooled with a hollow base bullet. before. I've cast thousands of cast bullets, but never hollow base or nose. I've got this mold: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001TQ3PO2 that I've been shooting for my 43 Spanish Reformato. A buddy purchased it for his 45-70 H&R. I just ordered this http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005KW5DCS/ for a Swedish Rolling Block in 12.7x44R (about a 50-70 brass).

I got my 45-70 brass this afternoon and will be shooting the Trapdoor either tonight or tomorrow - just out the back door so won't know anything about accuracy. Heck, with iron sights I still won't know much about accuracy. My old eyes just aren't what they used to be.

Kevin: Thanks for the info - 3 MOA would tickle me with iron sights! I've just ordered the book "Springfield 45-70" by John Reese - I hope it's decent. Wasn't expensive at all so anything I get from it is a plus. I'm thinking seriously about "The .45-70 Springfield" by Joe 'n Craig. From all reports that is the one book to have. Looking at it I see my rifle (based on serial number) was built in 1888.

This stuff is so much fun - and cheaper than hanging around in bars {g}..... or maybe even golf.

Ken H>

[cold1]

I made some plinking rounds for my trapdoor using the LEE 255 WFN .451. Its for a Colt 45, I paper patched it to .460. Im only using a few grains of REDDOT. It groups nice out at 50 yards.

[KenH]

That sounds like my kind of load - light recoil, but fun to shoot. That's a 255 grain bullet? Must be a real short bullet? How deep into case are you seating?

[Lead pot]

A V block is an easy way to measure odd grooves. Here are some ways to do this http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?239450-Vee-block-for-measuring-odd-numberof-lands-and-grooves

I have two 78 TD's one was decommissioned in Pennsylvania and the other came from Montana. I guess I'm fortunate that mine have a .459 groove. The grooves are shallow and very bright and they shoot a PP and the Lyman postell quite well.
I had a 73 and this rifle had a .461 groove and it shot the Lyman 500 gr as well as I could shoot.

[fouronesix]

Most trapdoors I've been familiar with have a land-groove geometry somewhat similar to many of their immediate predecessors- the rifle muskets. Makes sense from an evolutionary development perspective. The major difference being the faster twist to stabilize the longer 45 cal conical bullet in the 45-70.

When you do get to shoot yours at a target and if it has original sights, expect the point of impact to be quite a bit higher than point of aim at the shorter distances- under 100 yds. Just something to be aware of when setting up a target.

[Chill Wills]

__________________________________________________ _____

Thanks to all for the comments and info.

Chils: Just how do you define "accurate shooter"? To me, to be accurate a rifle needs at least a min of 1 MOA, maybe better. BUT - all things are relative. What I'd not be able to live with on a varimat rifle, would be fantastic with this trapdoor.

I know me and my old poor eyes - just can't see those iron sights much at all anymore. Anything I'm going to shoot for accuracy will require optical sights of sometype.... and a good rest {g}.
Thanks again for the help folks -

KenH - I guess I would call Trapdoor accuracy something 2 moa or less, 1.5moa is even better if you can develop a load and still see well enough to shoot it. I have competed in NRA BPCR national match 'Issue Military class' events. A Springfield 1884 with Buffington sights in good hands will place half to 2/3 up the pack in mid-range matches against purpose built BPCR Target rifles. Springfield's are not target rifles and as we all know, weren't built for that but they are one of the more accurate service rifles of there period that are eligible to compete in military class. Some issue Rollers are very accurate and could compete for this title but the service sights issued with them often knock them out of the running.

I have shot NRA BPCR silhouette matches with my rifle also. I have, once, shot nine of ten Turkeys in a match which is as much luck as anything but I did it! Accurate ammo can be assembled for this purpose but LEE hollow base bullets wont get you to first base - use a good mold design - even the Lyman 457 125 will be a good starting choice. It comes out of the mold about 520grains and 1.350" long and shoots to 500 meters well in light conditions. Do not be worried about loading it to some stated "book" over all length. Seat the bullet to lightly engrave the first driving band in the rifling. This will also create room for a slightly larger powder charge. It's black powder so that is fine. Velocity will be in the 1175 -1225 fps range with Swiss powder and that will get you a load that will shoot to the sight markings on the Buffington sight staff or very close.

These old Springfield rifles are amazing really! Even more fun when you get with others that have them for a little friendly match competition. Lots of support and helpful ideas from the other riflemen.
I hope this gives you some ideas...
Michael Rix

[KenH]

LeadPot - thanks for that link. I got some good ideas from it. Seems the simple method is to make a Vee block with exactly .500" from bottom of Vee to other side allowing quick 'n dirty measurements. While there might be errors due to number of lands, I'll bet that would be less than .001".

As I said before, with the iron sights accuracy is a mute points since I can not see the sights very well at all. I need a way to rig up a scope {g} - but with the trapdoor it would have to be a long eye relief scope for sure. I'd forgot I have a Dr's appt this morning for labs, x-ray, etc so won't be able to do much until after lunch. I did check the bore last night. I turned a 1" long brass plug that is .4505" diameter. well oiled, it will slide down the barrel - have to push a bit at muzzle, about half way down it slides a tad freer. I'm calling the bore .451", My simple measurement of slug gives perhaps .458/.459" so the rifling is deeper than I thought just by looking down the bore. This is the first time I've ever seen 3 land riflings and they look a bit different.

I did pop a primer last night just to see the firing pin works - it does so I do think I've got a shooter that will be more accurate than me with iron sights.

Thanks again to all for comments - they are all helpful in building my base of knowledge.

Ken H>

[ascast]

KenH lots of good stuff has been said, I will add I have an '88 that is about as close to mint as you'll find. I never could get it to shot for beans. Then I did a "chamber cast" of the muzzle about 4 inches. Discovered the cleaning rod wear was deeper than the cut groove in one spot. 2-3 inches of counter bore made it a real shooter.
Just something to check before throwing a ton of money at it.
have fun

[fouronesix]

If rifle has the Buffington rear sight, which is correct for that model, there should be a peep hole in the rear leaf. Raise the staff, set the windage to zero, lower the blade all the way down and use the peep. Might help a little for sight resolution. The original thin front sight blade with a sharp edge also doesn't help sight resolution. Easy to replace the original blade with a homemade blade that is taller and flat topped.

[KenH]

OK, just a short update. I didn't get time to do much today - I made a couple of rings for my granddaughter who's visiting this week. Made a spoon ring and a ring from a 2000 yr quarter - her year of birth. She's happy with both. I did get a chance to load up one round for the Trapdoor using a soft lead cast with the Lee Precision 457-340-F Double Cavity Mold. I had to seat almost all the way to the crimp groove - the bullet just touched the riflings. For a quick "cowboy" load I used 10 grains of PB - popped nice, and shoots good. I even hit the knot in tree I was aiming at.... from 20 yds away {g}.

I also got a Swedish 12.7X44 in today - that thing looks almost new. I loaded a single shot with it also using 50-70 brass - just a drop in fit once the rim is turned down to .630" diameter.

Anyway - thanks to all for comments and help. I'll be back in 3 or 4 days - got to carry granddaughter home and will be out of touch after tomorrow.

Ken

[John Allen]

Ken, hi an easy way to check the bore especially on the older rifles is to put a sheet of white paper on the opposite end and look through the bore at it. I think it works much better on the older bores when you are looking for imperfections.

[KenH]

Hey John - yep a white paper in breech does how show up the bore nicely. I also use a small flashlight to shine in bore and look down muzzle to see. Trick is for flashlight not to be too bright and wash out any imperfections in bore. Many years ago I had a bore light that used fibers so you could put light inside the bore and it now be too bright. I got to look for one of those.

Ken H>

[kootne]

Ken, if you are really concerned about groove diameter, turn up a ring with a .458" hole. Try your bullet, with it still in the lathe. If the bullet doesn't fit, open the hole till it does and mike the hole.

[KenH]

Thanks - there is always more than one way to skin a cat!! I'm thinking of making a "Vee" block, then use a "pin" that's about the same size as the bullet, mic that with a mic, then put bullet in same Vee block and measure with mic. The reading on the mic would give the diameter of bullet by either adding or subtracting the mic reading from the original reading. Make sense?

Thanks again to all for comments and suggestions.

Ken H>

[StrawHat]

KenH,

The throat of the barrel is going to be bigger than the bore. Fit the bullet to the throat and it will swage itself down to bore size.

Kevin

[cold1]

That sounds like my kind of load - light recoil, but fun to shoot. That's a 255 grain bullet? Must be a real short bullet? How deep into case are you seating?

To the crimp groove on the bullet. I didnt want anything fancy, just something that would let me get the old rifle shooting again. Would like to try squirrel hunting with the round but I dont think my eyes wil let me.

[KenH]

OK, I'm back from trip.

Cold1, thanks for the info - that's how I crimp my bullets (on the 5 I've actually loaded:). Anything longer and the nose of bullet hits the rifling and won't chamber until bullet is seated deeper in case.

I did some more work tonight slugging the barrel down at the chamber area. There it seems like I have a .454 bore, with about .004" rifling that gives a groove diameter of .462". These measurements are I think pretty solid for ±.001". Out at the muzzle end, I think the bore is more .452". These measurements "should" allow shooting of a .457" bullet with lube grooves and LLA lube - comments? I know there is no way to tell until actually shooting, but should be a starting place? Comments please.

Thanks again to all for comments 'n suggestions.

Ken H>