Wow - NON SBS shorty approved by BATFE

[Artful]

http://www.blackacestactical.com/#!product/prd3/3250932101/black-aces-tactical-dt
http://static.wixstatic.com/media/452ad6_6523620c283640c2a01748719b36b7fd.jpg_srb_p_ 400_400_75_22_0.50_1.20_0.00_jpg_srb


- Short 8.5 inch barrel
- Pro Series 5 mag fed receiver base
- ATI Talon stock with pistol tube adapter
- SIG SB15 brace
- Billet safety
- Bespoked barrel clamp
- Billet magazine tube
- Billet 5 sided multiposition action tube
- Magpul rail
- Magpul RVG
- ONE 10rd stick magazine
-All ATF letters included
- No AOW or SBS NFA stamps required.
- No 6-8 month wait

We've received our letter from the ATF and we have been instructed that our short barrel 12 gauge with the SIG brace is in fact classified as "firearm". What's that mean to you, the consumer? A lot.

It means that you can now have your SIG brace equipped mag fed Pro Series 5 built and shipped to you in lightning fast time, not 6 - 8 months as you would an AOW. It mean there is no tax stamp, and no hassle. No AOW, no NFA. Not a pistol, not a shotgun, not an SBS, not and AOW, strictly firearm.

[dragon813gt]

They can reverse their decision at any point. Just look at the Sig arm brace as a recent example of them doing just this. No way I would fire that w/out it properly placed on my shoulder.

[Whiterabbit]

actually, I bet with the sig brace applied like it is designed to be applied wouldn't shoot too bad with a standard 2.75" load or shorter.

3"+ or buck+, forget it.

[Hogtamer]

is there actually someone out there who will buy this for $1700? At $150 I would say you've been robbed.

[Dryball]

I want one bad. I don't think shooting it would be all that bad as it only comes in 2 3/4" chamber. It would be a great carry gun in the winter or on the bike.

[cwheel]

Cool looking I guess, but how it is not a AOW being a shotgun with a barrel less than 18" is the question. Sure looks like a $200 transfer tax stamp to me. If this is not a AOW, then a shotgun pistol is now legal ?? Is the barrel rifled to get around the no barrel less than 18" rule ??
Chris

[NoAngel]

Aside from blasting for fun, what can you really do with it? This sig braces are wonky and shooting a 12g without a good shoulder lock up ain't exactly accurate either.

I'm glad someone who wants one can have it but I think I will pass and buy something a little more useful and for $1700 that's probably be an 870 and a couple thousand rounds of ammunition.

[bikerbeans]

You can buy two keltec ksr pumps for the cost of that 8.5" shorty.

BB

[EDG]

It is a "firearm" as defined by the NFA? A "firearm" defined by the NFA is a prohibited item.
That means it cannot be possessed without the background check and paying the transfer tax check.

I hope you have an attorney review that letter and all your other documentation.

[cwheel]

The law states shotgun with less than a 18" barrel is a AOW. Also, 26 1/2" OAL comes into play, this gun is neither of those. It's a AOW with the $200 tax stamp required unless they have thrown out the 1935 gun law. Very unlikely that they have thrown out that law. Doesn't mean you can't have one, just need a form 1 and payment of the tax. For the $1700 pricetag, I'll just take a plain old 870 with a 18" tube, it's much more useful anyway.
Chris

[NoZombies]

This is neither an AOW nor an SBS simply because the overall length exceeds 26". Mossberg, Ithaca and others have over the years made 'firearms' chambered in shotgun chamberings that had barrels under 18" but overall lengths exceeding 26". This one simply uses that stupid brace to add length to the rear of the gun.

It isn't a handgun because it wasn't 'designed to be fired with one hand'.

The regs are stupid the way they're written, even stupider the way they're interpreted.

The crazy thing is, because of the way federal regs read, the length is measured in the maximum possible overall length, so even if you added a folding stock adapter to the pistol 'stock' tube, it would remain a legal and non-NFA configuration.

The regs that make this legal are a joke, but they are the law, nonetheless.

[NoZombies]

The law states shotgun with less than a 18" barrel is a AOW. Also, 26 1/2" OAL comes into play, this gun is neither of those. It's a AOW with the $200 tax stamp required unless they have thrown out the 1935 gun law. Very unlikely that they have thrown out that law. Doesn't mean you can't have one, just need a form 1 and payment of the tax. For the $1700 pricetag, I'll just take a plain old 870 with a 18" tube, it's much more useful anyway.
Chris

Just to clear a few things up:

AOW transfers are $5.
NFA was 1934
You can't form 1 an existing NFA weapon
Price tag is $1179

[Elkins45]

Put the brace against your shoulder to fire it and you have just committed a felony, based on the language of the ATF's Sig brace clarification letter.

I would rather buy a stamp and have a true SBS for half the price, although I do find the detachable mag appealing. I want a gun I can legally fire from the shoulder.

[Geezer in NH]

The law states shotgun with less than a 18" barrel is a AOW. Also, 26 1/2" OAL comes into play, this gun is neither of those. It's a AOW with the $200 tax stamp required unless they have thrown out the 1935 gun law. Very unlikely that they have thrown out that law. Doesn't mean you can't have one, just need a form 1 and payment of the tax. For the $1700 pricetag, I'll just take a plain old 870 with a 18" tube, it's much more useful anyway.
ChrisWrong!

Only a new never been a shotgun receiver can be an AOW, AOW is NFA needs same as a MG forms only cost will be $5.00 instead of $200.00. AOW is not a SBS.

It cannot have a stock fit for the shoulder as that makes it a SBS with the $200.00 transfer.

Get real on the nfa or don't give advise.

I agree $1700 for a SBS is a rip-off. A form 1 and $200.00 tax make your own 870 super short or just under barrel length and who care if it has a PG or stock. it still will not be an AOW.

[Artful]

I agree $1700 for a SBS is a rip-off. A form 1 and $200.00 tax make your own 870 super short or just under barrel length and who care if it has a PG or stock. it still will not be an AOW.

The Price for the DT version is $1,179 - NOT $1,700.
And for those living in a state that doesn't allow AOW or SBS, the option is probably highly reasonable - I just found it interesting they found the loophole - now how long until someone else undercuts their pricing with similar product or the loophole is closed.

[Smoke4320]

or a year from now ATF decides to change THEIR definitions of the law and declares it illegal. Then makes you recall all the product and destroy
IE: Atkins Accelerator

[dragon813gt]

They WILL reverse their decision on this. I'm all for repealing the NFA and GCAs. That's the only way to straighten this mess out.

[Artful]

or a year from now ATF decides to change THEIR definitions of the law and declares it illegal. Then makes you recall all the product and destroy
IE: Atkins Accelerator

as I recall it was the "spring" that was declared a NFA device and had to be destroyed they "let" you keep you expensive stock. It's too bad that Bower's et al hadn't flooded the market with many thousands before they changed their mind and to top it off there is still a similar design just using you as the "spring".

[glenr1]

On the shot gun forum the owner and inventor of Black Aces Tact joined the debate about the legality of the gun. When somebody that didn't know the laws was posting not quit the facts about it.
Here is a link to GunsAmerica blog post on the gun and the legal issues.
http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/short-barrel-no-hassle-black-aces/

[Artful]

https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/452ad6_d269cec5c7434210812bd886c18d235d-1024x1024.jpg
https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/452ad6_2d30b3c4e7d14141b4616f8f85efb853-1024x1024.jpg

[Geezer in NH]

Folks if the smooth bore barrel is under 18 inches it is NFA regardless of any letter.

A letter is only for the addressee. AND the best thing to remember the ATF screws up an awful lot but they will still prosecute you for their mistake.

IT IS NFA with all needs for the legal possession.

Fees=

Form 1 for SBS, SBR, Suppressor, AOW =$200

Form 4 for SBS,SBR, Suppressor,=$200

Form 4 for AOW =$5.00

Don't get caught without an approved paid for one.

[NoZombies]

Folks if the smooth bore barrel is under 18 inches it is NFA regardless of any letter.

A letter is only for the addressee. AND the best thing to remember the ATF screws up an awful lot but they will still prosecute you for their mistake.


Not so.

There are a number of firearms that have been made over the years that meet the definition.

Just because you don't think something is legal, doesn't mean it isn't.

145025

As for the letter thing, there are (at least) two types of letters; individual clarification letters (these are good only for the addressee) and manufacturer classification letters.

A clarification letter sent to an individual is providing the person information about the legality for them to possess, use, or do something.

A classification letter is sent to a manufacturer giving them a determination on whether the item in question would be legal to manufacture and sell. A classification letter can be rescinded, but even in the Akins accelerator case, the item submitted was substantially different from the product being manufactured. And in that case, even though there were hundreds that had been sold, none of the buyers were prosecuted of anything, and simply had to surrender their springs.

And for the record, it's Akins, not Atkins, Bill Akins is a cool guy who casts and shoots his own lead bullets as well.

[NavyVet1959]

Same legal reasoning as this one:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/10/foghorn/franklin-armorys-new-ar-15-is-neither-a-pistol-nor-a-rifle/

[EDG]

I believe this is the interpretation of a sawed off shotgun. Less than 18" is illegal.

If you want to squabble with the BATF get new never was a shotgun type receiver and put a straight rifled barrel or very slow twist barrel on it.
You no longer have a smooth bore and then you can try to call it a 12 ga slide action pistol.


Folks if the smooth bore barrel is under 18 inches it is NFA regardless of any letter.

[Artful]

I believe this is the interpretation of a sawed off shotgun. Less than 18" is illegal.

If you want to squabble with the BATF get new never was a shotgun type receiver and put a straight rifled barrel or very slow twist barrel on it.
You no longer have a smooth bore and then you can try to call it a 12 ga slide action pistol.

Altering an existing shotgun, rifle or handgun into a configuration of something that's manufactured into this configuration is making a NFA item (SBS, SBR, AOW) but if your buying from the maker a NEWLY MADE in a specific configuration that is BATF approved as a NON-NFA item different laws apply

- Remember like the IRS - BATF is making it's own regulations and applying them as they please, common sense and logic as nothing to do with the regulations and their enforcement.

[Avery Arms]

I would admonish anyone considering such a firearm (sig brace SBS/SBR or 26"+ AOW) to forget it and go buy a standard rifle, pistol or shotgun or a normal tax paid NFA firearm and not play games with ATF regarding whatever rulings they decide to issue next regarding these "loophole" guns. These recent rulings do NOTHING to help firearm owners and only serve to seriously complicate an already poorly understood national firearms act and create new "loopholes" for ATF to allow people to buy "gray area" guns then turn around and ban them or else just wait around and arrest people caught firing them from their shoulder or concealing them or whatever.

I'm all for repealing the NFA completely along with the FOPA, GCA etc but there is no victory to be had finding tiny loopholes that are liable to clamp shut as soon as you have your hand inside. Just imagine trying to take an illegal-to-shoulder gun to the range and let your friends or kids shoot it. What are you going to do go running and screaming every time someone is about to raise it to their shoulder? The sig brace "loophole" benefits no one except a government agency trying to drum up more violations and arrests.

Also a letter from ATF may not hold any water with your state if your "loophole" firearm is found to be in violation of state laws. Most all states have their own laws regarding NFA type firearms and these laws are often based on federal laws but are not always worded the same or ruled on the same way in court. As an example the State of Indiana convicted a man for carrying a handgun in his car without an Indiana state handgun license. The firearm in question was a pistol grip mossberg 500 shotgun which at that time was classified by ATF as a shotgun/long gun but which the state of Indiana ruled to be a handgun for the purpose of state law requiring the man have a state handgun permit for carrying a handgun in his car. The point being there is nothing to stop any state court from ruling the black ace or any such questionable firearm to be in violation of state laws that restrict shotgun barrel lengths etc and then you can be in just as much hot water as if the feds came after you.

I would not trust the black ace design one wee bit unless I had personally obtained letters from both the ATF and the Florida attorney general. Even then I would see it as a major liability if I was to move to another state or died and left it to unsuspecting family members.

[NavyVet1959]

With an AR in "handgun" configuration, you have a buffer tube, but no stock over it. All of my ARs start out this way, even if I eventually convert them to a rifle configuration. The ATF says that this is the way you need to do it and since it doesn't really cost me any more money to do it this way nor overly inconvenience me, I go ahead and do it that way. The thing is, you *can* shoot an AR handgun with the buffer in your shoulder. They supposedly changed their mind on the Sig brace with respect to how you use it constituting "making" it a SBR, but what about just a buffer tube? Are they going to now claim that the buffer tube is now just a somewhat painful stock? What about wearing a heavy coat and using it to soften the blow to your shoulder? What if your coat had a reinforced pad in it that was somewhat firm so that the force could be distributed across more of your shoulder?

What it all boils down to though is that the ATF's category system for SBRs, SBSs, rifles, shotguns, and handguns is completely illogical. Although I completely oppose the mere existence of the ATF, I could see how using their (perverted) "logic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_death)" that they might want to have rules about what constitutes a rifle or shotgun vs a handgun, but why should the barrel length make any difference? If someone wants to *decrease* the ballistic performance of their rifle by shortening the barrel, why should the ATF care as long as they keep it over a certain total length?

[Artful]

Avery Arms (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?5169-Avery-Arms) makes a good point to check with your state and local laws because they don't always match the way the federal government regulations.

Want to get confused some more
http://paladinarmory.com/Photos%20for%20PA%20website/Bush_Scout.JPG
This is a cut down Savage 24 - one rifled barrel and one shotgun barrel
the barrels on this are cut at 14" - it started as a long gun from the factory
so it falls under NFA registry - but is it
1) Short barreled shotgun with a $200 tax to transfer
2) short barreled rifle with a $200 tax to transfer
3) Any Other Weapon with a $5 tax to transfer

Oh and to make your decision easier - if the barrel was shortened under 12" it
would change classification.

and if you want to cheat before I post an answer
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guides-importation-verification-firearms-national-firearms-act-definitions-any

[Garyshome]

12G? how do you hold it to shoot it? 1Hand? I'm to old for this stuff. Is this really stupid or is it just me?

[Artful]

12G? how do you hold it to shoot it? 1Hand? I'm to old for this stuff. Is this really stupid or is it just me?

It's not a hunting gun - more a personal defense weapon - and you'd use two hands to shoot it in most cases but the option is to use one hand and the forearm brace.

[Geezer in NH]

Avery arms

Great post Thanks