Different crimps requiring different COL?

[Jonesy]

I've been loading my 230gn RN casts for 45 ACP at a COL of 1.90. It's a lee mold that quite a few people have a problem with COL apparently, and 1.90 cycles reliably 100% of the time. I came home today and started fiddling with my crimp as I believe I'm over crimping my loads. After lightening the crimp on the round, the same 1.90 headspaces too short in the bbl. 2.40 now headspaces perfectly without setback upon cycling.

Needless to say, I'm at a complete loss for this, 2.40 passes the 'plunk test' with flying colors, and headspaces perfectly. No signs of rifling shoving into the boolit, and no chambering setback with the reduced crimp. .

Could my heavy crimp be ballooning the case out so it doesn't fully seat in the chamber? Or is there some other sorcery going on here? With my shorter COL I'm able to get good accuracy, but I'm looking for great accuracy. I like to stretch out my reach with the 1911 to over the 100 yard mark and it seems like the maximum usable COL really helps land the lead where I point the thing.

Shooting an old garbage disposal at 140 yards with 1.90 COL lead to more misses then hits, by far.
Same target at 2.10 test loads with same heavy crimp lead to a much more balanced hit to miss ratio, the gun just didn't go into battery every time.

[mdi]

Yes, a heavy crimp can buckle a case. I would lessen the crimp until the rounds stopped passing the plunk test, then add a hair to get them back to dropping into the chamber. I don't "crimp" my 45 ACP or 9mm reloads, I just use a taper crimp die to remove any flare in the case mouth. Neck tension has always held my bullets in place (cast, plated, PCed, HiTek, and jacketed).



Needless to say, I'm at a complete loss for this, 2.40 passes the 'plunk test' with flying colors, and headspaces perfectly. No signs of rifling shoving into the boolit, and no chambering setback with the reduced crimp Why not just seat the bullet to 2.40"?

[jsizemore]

If a 1911 doesn't feed 100% of the time it's useless. There's a reason H&G #68 and it's clones are king at bullseye matches.

[Jonesy]

I'm seating to 2.40 now, I was just wondering what was going on that they would never want to chamber previously and with just reducing the crimp they do now. I've read of a lot of people using my same mold with the 1R ogive have to seat them pretty short, right around 1.90 to get reliability in cycling. There are entire threads of frustrated people using the Lee 452-228-1R mold trying to dial in COL perfectly. I use a RCBS seat/crimp die and it is a real pain to dial in, but I think I have it perfect now. I know most people hate these dies, but it's what I have so it's what I use.

[Scharfschuetze]

My assumption is that your seating die is giving you a roll crimp. If that is the case, MDI (above) has a good suggestion in getting a taper crimp die. A roll crimp die will work if you just iron out the bell from the expanding step, and in many 45s that's all you need; but in my match barreled Colt with a minimum chamber, I need to taper crimp for best reliability.

I use the RCBS taper crimp die without any complaint and with good success. Lyman also make one to my knowledge and either one is worth the expense if you are dialing in you 1911. They won't bulge your cases and your headspace, given proper length cases, will remain consistent. I taper crimp the 45 ACP as a separate and final step in reloading for the round.

Seating depth for reliability can often be influenced not only your lead, but also your feed ramp and even how the extractor controls the chambering of your round. Reliability and accuracy are often a compromise between the two in any semi-auto pistol or rifle.

At any rate, a taper crimp die is well worth the expense for a died in the wool 1911 shooter and reloader.

[jsizemore]

Most folks seat and crimp in separate steps.

[Blackwater]

Crimps are something that many don't fully understand. Let me see if I can help a little. Autos drive the loaded rounds hard into the feed ramp, which naturally tends to drive the bullet backwards into the case. For this, we use a taper crimp, which is just a taper that turns the case mouth back into the bullet and forms a sort of pressure induced "cannelure" around the bullet, and the tiny little ridge in front of the case mouth that is created, simply provides the bullet a ridge that resists being shoved back deeper into the case. That's really the only function it serves in most auto rounds.

For the revolver, we have exactly the opposite problem, and the force of substantial recoil, especially in the magnums, drives the gun and its contents, including the rounds awaiting being fired that are contained within the cylinder, backwards. Inertia tends to make the lead bullets (or any other kind) want to stay in place while the gun is driven backwards, and the force resulting from inertia tends to want to "pull" the bullets out of the case, and forward. Exactly the opposite as the case with autos. This is why autos and revolvers take differing crimp types, generally. Revolvers use a roll crimp, which turns the case mouth much more heavily and farther into the crimp groove generally provided. This additional level and amount of crimp is needed to keep the bullets in place in the case during recoil. The speed of recoil is significantly greater than the speed of the slide in an auto, but both are forces to be reckoned with in preparing our ammo for 100% reliability.

With taper crimps, all that's really needed is to turn the case into the bullet just enough to prevent the bullet's being shoved back down into the case, which BTW, CAN cause very high and possibly in some instances, dangerous pressures. Therefore, crimp usually deserves more attention than we often tend to give it.

Roll crimps in revolvers can and should vary according to the load used, and it's good to get one of those split rings with the screw adjustment to lock it down in position on our seating dies. That way, it's easy to adjust the crimp either lighter or heavier according to our loads we're concocting at the time. .38 WC's or any other light load using fast burning powders usually improve in accuracy with lighter crimps, and it's really no big deal to adjust our dies accordingly. This is most true, I think, with the soft lead alloys used in HBWC's. Try it some time, and load a small group with light, med. & heavy crimps and see what it does to your accuracy. This takes really baring down to get absolute accuracy, and for most of us, that means sandbag rests. Just rest the barrel lightly, and let the gun do its thing as independently of your hand as is possible.

Heavier loads with slow powders usually require the heaviest crimps, but as 44man has pointed out to us, case neck tension is a real biggie here, too, but crimp is still needed, generally to keep that bullet from pulling forward in recoil, so I try to use both to the best of my ability.

Crimps are an "invisible" part of our loads, usually, because we just don't notice them or pay much attention to them, and often regard them as "a crimp's a crimp," but they CAN, at least sometimes, be a big part of getting real accuracy. It all depends on whether you're shooting an auto or revolver, and whether you're shooting light loads with soft bullets, or big magnum loads with slow powders and harder lead. I don't think anyone here can fail to understand what kind of crimp is needed and warranted for each type of load, with only a little consideration, so I won't go into that. Just remember that the only reason that crimp is there is to retard bullet movement under feeding or recoil, and sometimes, to retard bullet release a tiny bit so the slow burning powders can get up to pressure and burn better and more consistently, producing (usually) better accuracy and more consistent velocities, not to mention smaller groups. Do a little experimenting on your own. There's really no substitute for that. What we SEE means a LOT more than the things we read here. It's "PROOF," and not just "opinion." So go forth and prove it on your own. It's FUN!

[Jonesy]

144371
Here's what the crimps look like. The short one measures at 1.90 but the crimp pushes lead up from the boolit when seating. The one on the right is 2.40 and has no problems with lead pushing. They both chamber completely flush with the end of the bbl which is the befuddling part to me. Headspacing on both is perfect, but lengths are different. Same casts, same brass, just different crimp leading to a different COL requirement.

I tried getting a good view of how the crimp pushes the lead up from the boolit on the short one, hopefully you can see it on here.

[35remington]

You are not crimping and seating in the same step, are you? If you are, you just discovered your problem. The plowing the lead in front of the case mouth is the clue.

The plowed up lead is "headspacing" the round and accounting for the similar appearance of seating the same.

Never taper crimp and seat in the same step.

[MrWolf]

Yup, that lead ridge is the issue as 35remington stated. Seat and crimp in seperate steps.

[Jonesy]

Yessir I sure am, that's the only die I have to get the job done. I'm what you call "Poor folk" so I cant really afford anything else at the moment. Both rounds were seated and crimped in one step, but you can see the one on the right has no lead plowing issue.

I've also been typing 1.90 as my COL for the short ones, they're 1.190, please disregard the typos. 1.190 for the shorter ones with heavy crimp, 1.240 for my lighter crimp. I don't know how I missed that :?

[35remington]

Given you now know that you don't squeeze a case mouth smaller while a bullet is being shoved into it, get the needed separate taper crimp die.

Taper crimping and seating at the same time is bad reloading practice. If you don't want to buy another die you must apply no crimp while seating and do all your cartridges, then back off the seating stem and apply your crimp. No choice.

[crackers]

I'm at a loss for how you and Woody measure things but I think in the land of precision works you should get a handle on the measuring thingy pretty quick before you shoot near me.

[Jonesy]

I agree this die is a *** and requires real wizardry to get it to work well, but it does eventually work. I spent about 2 and a half hours adjusting last night and can get it to seat and crimp in one step without pushing lead or making anything dangerous. I'm finally happy with it and since I've got no money to afford a separate crimp die, it'll have to do.

And if you're referring to my 1.90 typo, it was just a repeated typo. They measure at 1.190, I've just been up all night dealing with a cranky baby and somehow managed the same typo throughout the majority of this thread without noticing.

[Jonesy]

Take a look at the picture I posted and tell me what you think about the crimp on the right, I think it looks pretty good for being made on a one step seat/crimp die.

[35remington]

Jonesy, what you're lacking is knowledge, to some degree. Different length cases will see different amounts of crimp applied, and until you measure the diameter of the crimped case mouth you do not know if the round is within spec for best functionality. A longer batch of cases will plow lead on a setting that works fine for short cases if seating and crimping are done at the same time.

Spending hours adjusting a die is a waste of time given that no matter what you do, it's still less than correct.

In other words, there's a better way. You don't know that because you haven't experienced the better way yet. Years ago I tried various methods and wound up seating and crimping in separate steps. Taper crimp dies are cheap and the "better way" ensures things really are as they're supposed to be, all the time.

Given how case lengths vary if you think about it you can see how seating and crimping in the same step is less than ideal. Further, separate seating and crimping allows you to tweak one or the other as you go along without fear of losing the adjustment and taking too much time to get it back.....and rest assured, wherever it's adjusted now is likely not right at some point in the future.

Varying case lengths are the situation when loading 45 ACP. Going to two dies saves both the need for exactingly adjusting the die (which still won't be correct) and saves time and aggravation. Better ammo, faster, is obtained with two dies.

You'll have to take my word for it if you don't want to try it. Few experienced reloaders of autoloading pistol cartridges seat and crimp in the same step. There's a good reason why.

[35remington]

And.....if you want to see if the crimp is correct, don't post a picture on the Internet and ask if it looks okay. Measure it and know for sure it IS okay. All flare must be gone and all case mouths should be below maximum SAAMI spec for the cartridge, even if case lengths vary.

[Blackwater]

Good advice above, and all I can add is that the only dies I have in .45 ACP are the seater die, and no other special dies. It's really all in how you adjust and set them, and that takes a little practice and experience and experimentation. Just have at it until you get it right, and then the light bulb will go on, and "bing," then you'll REALLY have a good grasp and understanding of it all. There's really no quick and easy path to real understanding of what we do, EXCEPT trial and error. By that, we learn the subtleties that affect our hobby so very much. So your die isn't a POC, you just haven't learned how to use it to best advantage yet. But you WILL, I promise, if you just keep tinkering. When that light bulb goes on, if you're like I was when I went through it, you'll then wonder how you didn't see it to begin with. All I'll be able to say, with a big ol' grin, is "Join the club, brother!" And once you do it a time or two, you'll actually find your attitude changes from that it's a "problem," to that it's just fun and edifying.

OH! And don't forget to make up some dummy rounds at the correct OAL and crimp, with no powder or primer, and keep them in your die box so you can set the seater very quickly. Use those, after you find what works best in your gun, and only slight adjustments will be necessary after you set it with the dummies. Very easy and quick, really, and avoids SOOOOOO many problems! Just another lil' tip that'll help give you perfect loads in the quickest amount of time possible, and with the minimum "wasted motion." Sometimes, doing it right the first time really DOES save us a LOT of wasted time later. Good luck. I've got total faith in you.

[mac60]

Jonesy, I don't think your RCBS die is junk at all - far from it. Evidently I'm in the minority here, as I seat and crimp in one step (if I'm loading 50 rds. - that's 50 strokes of the press handle I just saved myself). It involves more exacting die adjustment but it can be done - as you now know.

[Jonesy]

I see what you guys are saying here. My crimp measures at .471 and I actually measure my brass length to make sure they are the same as I foresaw that being a problem. In a perfect world I wouldn't be struggling to make ends meet and would have a separate crimping die as I do believe that is a much better way to accomplish what I'm trying to do without all the hassle I'm going through at the moment with this. Facts are, I understand this isn't the best way to go about this. This is the only way I CAN go about this right now. I'd rather put a toy in my kids play box before I put something in mine. If a round seems off in the slightest way, I don't use it.

I'm not entirely ignorant on this subject, though I'm not entirely knowledgeable on it either. That's why I'm here asking for advice. I'm positive I'm not the only one using this die here, and if it was a total piece of junk, they wouldn't likely produce it. Hopefully not at least. I understand pressures and where the line is drawn on safety and I would rather not compromise my hand or weapon just to go out and make some noise at the range. I'm broke, I have less than ideal equipment, and would like anyone who has previous experience to hopefully shed a little light on this as I'm sure this problem has arisen in places other than my garage.

I really just wanted to know why the shorter rounds chamber at the same depth on the hood as the longer ones. The brass and boolits are all the same, just with a different crimp. I'm rather anal with my reloads as I like to upset my buddies at the range and shoot what they cant all while bragging about the low cost compared to their factory ammo. If it doesn't look, feel, measure, or even smell right, I leave it home. I've only got one 1911, and it's pretty dear to me, I don't want to feed her junk food.

[popper]

Single stage press, seater die under the powder hopper holder. Seat all, then remove hopper & die is set for heavy crimp BUT I use lever pressure to really set the amount of crimp - I don't trim 40 or 9 brass.

[Swede 45]

I'm on a small screen phone, so I might be wrong here..
But at the pic, doesn't it look like both rounds has a roll crimp? Left worse than the one to the right.
Roll crimp on cases that headspace on case mouth is a bad idea what I've been teached..?
So is extreme taper crimp!?

[bhn22]

Try this: seat the bullet to the desired length, with the die set so that it does not crimp. Seat all bullets thusly. Then remove the bullet seating stem from the die and reset the die to crimp to the desired dimension. This may get you by for a little while, it's certainly better than what you're doing now. BTW, that little ring of lead that has been plowed up by your current procedure could have serious consequences under certain circumstances. The crimping shoulder in the die is designed for use with 45 Auto Rim cases and bullets with a crimping groove. I've long felt that 45 ACP die sets should be sold as four die sets, not three. You do need a taper crimp die to do this right, and this may get you by long enough to be able to afford one.

[David2011]

^^^^ Exactly what I was going to say. IMO RCBS is one of the better, more reliable die makers. Definitely not ***. That said, I use Lee dies as well.

Lee .45 ACP taper crimp die- $12.79: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/244052/lee-taper-crimp-die-45-acp
Maybe you cold get a buddy to put it on his order to save on shipping.

Your target COL and crimp size are good; just need to modify the technique.

David

[35remington]

Just saying that having separate control over the crimp is an advantage. I load either semi progressively (load testing, less common) or progressively and check and gauge sample rounds as I go to make sure I don't make a lot of copies of marginal ammo before I detect a problem.

As the other guys said, dummy rounds greatly speed die setup.

Removal of all case flare.....positively, on every round, is a big step toward load reliability. Given bullet type, band width, seating depth and bullet hardness I find I want to tweak taper crimp every now and then. That may be just me, but It's what I do. Lube buildup sometimes requires die removal for cleaning and those dummy rounds help me get going again quickly.

Adjusted your way, the die setting will work most of the time as that's probably a good midpoint with most brass and bullets. My way is a bit more of a probability of working with lots of ammo loaded and doesn't require looking for yet another problem caused by trying to do two things at once. Lee went from a three to four hole turret in acknowledgement of the superiority of separating seating and crimp.....or that's a darn good reason to suppose they did so.

[Jonesy]

I've got a 4 hole turret with the 3 die set, go figure. I use the open hole to hold my bullet sizing die that makes for a wonderful powder drop sort of die as I have my dispenser directly above it mounted on a swivel. This way I don't have to remove a case to charge, just raise up until it touches the sizing die, and drop powder straight through. When I need to size bullets, the powder hopper swings off to the side and the bullet catch container goes right on top. The only time I need to remove brass is to verify charge weight as I load.

I'm definitely going to get a separate crimping die eventually, just don't have the cash right now. Money is tight enough that I fashioned myself a bullet puller out of a sprinkler head zip tied onto a hammer. My brass tumbler is an old power wheels type motor mounted inside of a speaker box with pvc pipes as rotors to turn my tumbling container. The two pipes are connected with an electrical tape drivebelt. This should give an idea on my reloading budget. If I was rich, I'd still use my tumbler, but I'd definitely buy a bullet puller and a separate crimping die.

I love my tumbler, even added lights inside so I can watch the action as it goes. Been run for hundreds of hours without a hitch, and can clean about 200 cases at a time, more if I skimp on the media a bit.

[35remington]

If you're loading on a turret you owe yourself some sort of powder through expand die so you can speed up production. Here doing two things at once is a good thing.

When you can afford the cheap crimp die, get it, and sooner rather than later if possible.

[Jonesy]

Once I get a start date for my new job, I'm buying toys. I'll bring home nearly double what I currently do, so I'll have wiggle room to buy the kids and myself toys. Better crimp die, better bullet puller, and a few cases of primers are top of the list.

My die seems to be making real nice rounds at the moment, but I won't know how they shoot until I pick up some more primers. I always get things ironed out when I'm out of a critical component.

[mdi]

Slow down. RCBS makes a great seating/crimping die and I don't know anybody that dislikes it. It seems you are disrupting both bullet material and the case with your crimping methods. I'm not a know-it-all 45 ACP reloader, but I know what works for me and how I arrived at it. Try this; continue with what you're doing up until bullet seating. Back off the seat/crimp die so it does not crimp. Readjust the seating depth. Seat all bullets. Back the seating stem way back and lower the die until you start to feel a crimp. Slowly add the crimp until the cartridge passes the plunk test. This is how I did it on my single stage, I separated the seating/crimping so I could master both, without trying to find that "perfect" adjustment where both operations stop at the same spot, without any damage. No need for an extra die just use the features of the die separately. When you gain experience you can go back to seating/crimping at the same time, if you choose, but for now separate them and get some good, shootable ammo now...

[Char-Gar]

Jonsey....I find threads like your extremely frustrating. Folks have been handloading the 45 ACP round for over 100 years and there are no secrets and no improved/better ways of doing things. If you follow time tested loading procedures there will be no problem. For the umpteenth time on this board here is it;

1. Pick a bullet style that is compatable and time tested with the 1911 pistols. A good 220-230 rounds nose, or a SWC like Hensley and Gibbs 68 or Lyman 452460. These are proven designs.

2. Size and lube the bullets .451 or .452. I prefer .452, but if you find your barrel won't take .452 bullets, the use .451 or send you barrel to DougGuy for throating.

3. Full length size and bell/expand the cases to seat the bullet without shaving lead.

4. Use powder that produces the proper pressure to make all the moving parts in a 1911 work in sequences they way they should. For me, this means Bulleye, Unique, 231 or AA5.

5. Make a dummy round and seat your bullets little by little until the case head is dead even with the end of the barrel hood.

6. After all your rounds have the bullets seated, now it is time to crimp. Use a separate TAPER CRIMP die and here is how to adjust it;

A. Put a factory commerical or military load in the shell holder and life the ram to it's highest point.
B. Screw the TAPER CRIMP die down on top of this loaded round as hard as you can using hand pressure only and no tools.
C. Set the die lock ring and your are done.

This is very easy stuff, if you follow the rules. If you don't follow the rules then you will be like the dog chasing it's tail. The 45 ACP round is very easy to load for accuracy and reliability in the 1911 pistol but you must follow the rules and not try and reinvent the wheel.

Addendum: Seating and crimping in the same operation is NEVER a good idea for autopistol rounds. Seating and crimping in the same operation MIGHT be a good idea, IF the crimp groove is wide enough to not shave lead from the bullet body when the crimp is applied.

[Blackwater]

Char-Gar gives excellent advice. We "moderns" often get in TOO big a hurry, and when that happens, errors are sure to follow. Do it right the first time, which really doesn't take any longer, and you'll profit immensely. Jonesy, you seem to be at that "between" stage where you've still got things to learn so you can load without such problems, so follow Char-Gar's instructions to the letter, and see if all your problems don't go away. The process is called "edification," or "learning," and we ALL, each and every one of us, had to go through these stages. You can too, if you just will. And your ammo will be 100% dependable, which might not be a small thing one day. Education always has its price, and we ALL have to pay it. It's just your turn today. Later you'll be giving newbies advice yourself, and helping THEM, instead of the other way around. That's how it's always been, and always will be. Just get your education stage over with as quickly and painlessly as possible by following Char-Gar's instruction, and you'll be giving out advice very soon, I think. Just keep a stiff upper lip as the old Brits used to say. You'll conquer it all if you stick around here very long. I learn new stuff to me all the time, and I've been casting and loading for 50 years. We're one and all in a stage of refinement and further learning, and a group like this one is a tremendous help.

[Jonesy]

I think I'm coming off as completely unknowledgeable here. I'm not completely, just partially in my limited defense. I've been loading for some time now, but as most of us surely did, I started with factory bullets. I got into casting to save a buck, and found the addiction that comes from it. I do seat and crimp in one step, and have considered breaking that into two steps using the one die, I just really like to tinker with things to get them to work. My loads really don't shove lead up as shown in the picture, that's the worst example dummy round I had to take a picture of. I've got the die dialed in where I feel it's perfect, they all plunk right in, just kiss the rifling, and seat flush with the hood.

My question was whether overcrimping a round would require deeper seating as both 1.190 (overcrimped) and 2.40 (properly crimped) seat totally flush on the hood. I have learned a few things from this thread though, and I really do appreciate all the advice. No one would learn with out criticism!

Mind you, I haven't yet fired any of my longer loads, but I have confidence they will function just fine as they all drop right in with a nice plunk, feed and eject well, and do not have any setback once chambered.

I am totally guilty of overcrimping which lead to a fair amount of swaging inside the case, and plenty of leading when the day was done. I ran out of unique but was gifted a few pounds of CSB-1 M pistol powder which works very well for me.

I should've used a better picture of my loads, as that lead pushing was really bad on that round. I did have a minor amount on the actual loads I used, but nothing close to that. It was always a tiny ring that just peeled off when running my fingernail over it. The boolits were getting sized down to around .449-450 from .452 at the bases though, which I believe lead to my filling the barrel with lead glitter. Currently, I've got no lead pushing up, the brass is not digging into the lead at all, and the mouth sits right at .471. Once I get to the shop and pick up some primers, I'll know for sure if this has all worked or not, thanks again everyone for the advice, I've got no one around me that casts or reloads so I kinda rely on the experience and wisdom of you guys to help me with the issues that stump me.