Load for 91 Argentine

[mrappe]

A friend gave me some loads for my 91 Arg for a Cowboy Action Shoot that shot right to the point of aim (metal plate @ 80 yrds) so I ordered some of the same 180 grn .312 lead gas check bullets from Moyer's Cast Bullets. His box of ammo said that it was loaded with IMR 4198 24 grns. Does this sound reasonable? I don't have a loading book that lists this combination of bullet type and the powder?

[Larry Gibson]

Yes, that is a reasonable load and is about 1.5 gr under Lyman's listed "max". You should be getting around 1800 fps with your load. If the sights are unaltered on your M91 Argie the sights are set for jacketed loads at a much longer rage which is why they are "on" at the shorter range for the slower cast bullet load. Sometimes you get lucky!

Larry Gibson

[leadman]

I agree with Larry. It is possible those .312" boolits might be a shade small. They may slug up but if they give you problems you may want to slug the bore. "Standard" bore size for the 91 is .313".

[DanM]

I use the same bullets and sizing die for my '91 Argie that I use for my #4Mk2 Enfield. That makes for a .315" cast bullet.

[Larry Gibson]

I don't often disagree with leadman (can't even remember the last time:?) and not really disagreeing this time; just pointing out that .313 is the "standard" groove size for the 7.65 Belgian which is most often thought to be the same as the 7.65 Argentine. However they are not the same. It is a common, often stated and often repeated misbelief that the 7.65 Belgian and the 7.65 Argentine are the same cartridge. They are not.

The "standard" groove diameter for the 7.65 Argentine is .311 as shown on the C.I.P. drawings. I've slugged numerous M91 and M1903 Argentines bores in pristine condition and they all have measured .311 - .3115. Having measured several 7.65 Belgians I've found the groove diameter to run from .313 - .316. The headspace dimension of the 7.65 cartridges and chambers are also slightly longer than the 7.65 Argentine's. While you can shoot factory/milsurp 7.65 Argentine ammunition in 7.65 Belgian rifles and most milsurp 7.65 Belgian ammunition in 7.65 Argentines they are not the same dimensionally.

That is why cases formed or sized with Lee's 7.65 Belgian dies many times will not chamber in 7.65 Argentine rifles. While the cartridges may be close to the same in the case of the Lee 7.65 Belgian dies "close" is not close enough. In those instances the remedy is to shorten the Lee 7.65 Belgian FL die .010 - .013 or get RCBS or Lyman 7.65 Argentine dies.

I find the 311299 sized as cast at .312 to shoot just as well as the 314299 sized at .314 in my three M91s and one M1909 Argentines. Actually the 311466 at .312 is the most accurate bullet in all my 7.65 Argentines.

Larry Gibson

[leadman]

Larry, I have 2 new old stock Argentine marked 91 barrels and both measure .313". Also There used to be made a .313" diameter bullet made for the 7.65, a 174gr RN by Speer. Used to buy them at gun shows many years ago as they were discontinued in the late 70s'. My other 2 1891s are both at .3135" or a little more. I have also seen it in print that they are .313". I probably slugged an additional 5 or more barrels for people also and all were .313" or larger.
I posted this picture of my RCBS dies in another thread also. RCBS does not list a die set for an Argentine Mauser, just the Belgian.144527

I went to the CIP website and they list only the 7.65 X 53 Argentine. The projectile dimension is listed as 7.94 which converts to .3125984252 inches. Interesting is case length at 53.6mm long. This must be why some of the old Norma ammo boxes I had listed it as 7.65 X 54. The base is listed as 12.05mm which is .47440944882 in inches. Some of the ammo is that dimension, some is .473".
When I got my first 91 in about 1982 I went to the Phoenix Library and they had a book of the DWM ammo and the dimensions of the Argentine at .313". This is what I have been using since then. Unfortunately they got a head librarian in that was anti-gun and books like it were thrown in the dumpster.
I have never slugged a Belgian bore and have only seen one gun at a gunshow.
As time goes by it becomes harder to track down correct info on these old guns so what you posted could very well be fact. The internet has helped in some way, hurt in others.

[Char-Gar]

I have a primo Lowe 1891 Argentine and the barrel measures .302 X .314.

[Larry Gibson]

leadman

Said I was just "pointing out. The RCBS dies are for both cartridges and size to 7.65 Argentine dimensions. Thus they will fit both chambers as I indicated. Lyman's 7.65 Argentine dies will fit both chambers also. There is another thread currently running on Lee 7.65 Belgian dies not sizing cases sufficiently for 7.65 Argentine chambers. That is and has been a common thread topic for as long as this forum has been.

"I went to the CIP website and they list only the 7.65 X 53 Argentine. The projectile dimension is listed as 7.94 which converts to .3125984252 inches."

That is correct for the max projectile diameter on the C.I.P. drawing. However the topic is the groove diameter. Go to the next column which lists the dimensions for the barrel. They are 7.65mm for the bore and 7.92mm for the groove diameter. That converts to .3006 and .3112 respectively. Go to http://www.cartridge-corner.com/metric.htm and you'll see the differences in cartridge dimensions between the two. You might also look in Lee's reloading manual, 2nd Ed, at the 7.65 Belgian cartridge drawing dimensions and compare those to CIP's 7.65 Argentine dimensions. Those that Lee uses appear to be close to correct for the Belgian 7.65 and are probably what Lee cuts his 7.65 Belgian dies for. Dimensions given for cartridges and bullets, especially concerning milsurp cartridges is most often quite different from the dimesnions of chambers and bore/groove diameters. I alsways hesitate to actually use cartridge/bullet dimensions when discussing barrel dimensions but it is of common concern in this discussion.

As I previously mentioned I have slugged numerous German made M91 and M1909 barrels and find then not to be over .312. My two shooter M91s that were "sporterized" for sale have .3105 and .311 groove diameters. My original M91 rifle has a .3114 groove diameter. A DWM M1909 that was re-chambered to 31-06 had a .312 groove and my DWM M1909 7.65 Argentine also has a .3115 groove diameter. I don't doubt the probability of larger dimensioned barrels, especially some of the Argentine made barrels. Perhaps I just measure differently? The OP probably will probably find the .312 commercial cast bullets over his charge of 4198 to shoot just fine. Were he to cast his own I'm sure we'd all agree he needs to slug the barrel for selection of a proper mould.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Here is some of the last actual 7.65 Belgian milsurp ammo I found to test. It is a crush fit in all my 7.65 Argentines especially my M1909 in which it took a lot of force to close the bolt. Interestingly it pressure tested (in a M91 via Oehler M43) very consistently with Argentine milsurp ammo. Considering the Spanish? writing on the package I origianll thought it might be FN made ammo for Argentina? But on inspection and attepts to chamber I found the ammunition was made to 7.65 Belgian dimensions. The bullets mic at .314 - .3145 BTW. The smallest 7.65 Belgian bullets I've mic'd were some AP FN 39's which mic'd at .313.

Larry Gibson

144529144530144532

[leadman]

Not sure where my NOS barrels were actually made but they do have the Arg. markings on them. I would like to find another barrel.
The only 1909 I slugged was corroded so badly I was unable to get a decent reading. It is now a 6.5-06 in a heavy McMillan stock.

Of the 6 barrels on my guns not a one was smaller than .313". I must be lucky 'cuz 4 of my Mosin Nagants and two 7.7 Arisakas all measure over .313". M 2 Lee Enfields measure over .312" also. Even my 1917 Enfield 30-06 measures .312" except in the counterbored muzzle.
These differences are the reason I tell people to measure the bore, meaning get the max groove dimension. Makes life interesting playing with these old guns.
I looked at the info on the different cartridges and noticed that the year of introduction for the 7.65 Arg. is 1914. What did the shoot in the guns made prior to 1914? I also noticed there is a 7.65 X 63 Arg. Navy listed but is the same case length as the 7.65 X 53 Arg Mauser at 2.09"?? This is why I made the statement that good information is becoming increasingly hard to come by.

I am of the opinion as long as people are made aware of the possible differences in the cartridges and guns and we are able to get them on the right path all is good. I do agree that the OP load will probably be fine as it should have enough pressure to make the boolit obturate.

[Larry Gibson]

"I lookedat the info on the different cartridges and noticed that the year ofintroduction for the 7.65 Arg. is 1914. What did the shoot in the guns madeprior to 1914?"

Not sure why the 1914 date unless that's when the spitzer shaped bullet wasadopted(?) except numerous “authorities” have that as occurring in 1909. The210 gr RN bullet was used at first and my M91s were made before 1914 and theM1909 (M98 action) in 7.65 Argentine was adopted in 1909. It ismy understanding the Argentine Navy or Argentine Policia adopted the M91Carbine first and it was the same cartridge as the Belgian(?). Could bewrong but I recall reading that.

I see Wikpediasays all the 7.65 cartridges are the same.......once something is in print,especially on the internet, it becomes the “truth”. To the contrary militaryfactory.com statesthe M91 was adopted and put into service in ’91 in the “local 7.65 Argentinecartridge”. I suppose I could spend $75and buy Webster’s Argentine MauserRifles, 1871 – 1959 and see if the answer is in there. However, it’s not all that important.....justa topic of discussion is all. Perhaps ifsomeone has Webster’s book they could answer? Found this at www.carbinesforcollectors.com/mauserhistory1.html (http://www.carbinesforcollectors.com/mauserhistory1.html).

by Dan Reynolds
Argentina: ………..The Army adopted an improved Turkish Mauser Model1890 as the 7.65 mm Modelo Argentino 1891. This Mauser was produced overa span of 10 years, first by Ludwig Loewe until 1897 when it was merged intoDWM and then by that firm and so marked on the
receiverrails. During the life of production, five distinct variations were madeas improvements to the magazine and action. Several types of crests arefound representing Army, Navy and cadet rifles for the military and navalacademies and at least one university.
Riflesare most often found with the national crests ground off. This is due toan old Argentine law which mandated that this be done before export; the lawwas changed in the later 1960’s. All DWM rifles I have seen had darkwalnut stocks as opposed to a lighter
blondishwalnut found on Ludwig Loewe made pieces. There are two types of M91carbines that I know of, these being the original cavalry carbine and amodification with swivels and bayonet attachment device to accept a cut downversion of the M1879 Rolling Block sword bayonet with brass grips of Germanmanufacture. This is sometimes called the engineer carbine or M91/16although I don't know if this is the official Argentine nomenclature. Argentina supplied weapons to Paraguay in the period 1901-05 and during theGran Chaco War in the early 1930’s. These pieces would have crestsdefaced. Interarmco imported large numbers of brand new and excellentM1891 rifles around 1961. They cut down many into Mannlicher style carbineswith 22" barrels and a newly fabricated nose cap which many today mistakefor original carbines. These conversions were rumored done in a shop inPuerto Rico, but could have been done at the large facility Interarmcomaintained outsideLondon in the free zone atHeathrow.

We also see many commenting on the “history”of the M91 Argentine stating it was chambered in the “7.65x53 Mauser cartridge”.

Certainlydo concur with you that “good information is becomingincreasingly hard to come by.” Have enjoyed the conversation and tid bits of information. I now know "De" is for Germany!

Larry Gibson

[30calflash]

A long time ago I loaded 20 grains of IMR 4198 in an 09 Argentine mauser rifle for CBA benchrest postal matches. The mold was an Ohaus 30-220, like a Lyman 311284. Norma brass, std LR primer.

It shot 2.2" average at 100 yards with issue sights. You can go with the load you used or maybe a little lighter may work also. IMR 4198 is a decent powder to try in a military bolt 30 cal rifle.

[leadman]

I also noticed in that sheet of metric cartridges the Argentine Navy rifle had a .313" bullet. Could this be the reason we are seeing some guns with .311" bores and others with larger .313"?
While I was producing large quantities of boolits awhile back I slugged lots of guns at no charge for people and found there was alot of variance away from the "standard" bore sizes for most older guns, military or civilian.

Today I was working on an old 1891 Arg Mauser that had already been "sporterized" long before I got it. I have the jig from Midway I bought years ago to drill and tap the receiver that is supposed to fit "all Mausers". Found the distance between the bridges is much shorter than the 93s or 98s I have D&Td before. Also this is the hardest receiver I have ever drilled. Got the front 2 holes done but have to jerry rig the jig to do the 2 rear holes and was getting tired so decided to save it until tomorrow.

The Mauser safeties I bought off the guy on GunBroker that came from Kimber for the 96 Mausers does work with a few modifications. He has about 1,500 of these bueler style safeties.

[joatmon]

leadman could I get the user name for the man with the safeties?

Thanks Aaron