Old metallic reloaders more valuable than shotshell reloaders?

[beeser]

After a short time of looking at prices of old reloading presses it seems that more value is placed on metallic as opposed to shotshell reloaders. Seems strange to me considering that the later are generally more complex and usually cost a lot more new. Any reason for this?

[ascast]

how old are you talking about? and I think more people shoot/reload for rifle/pistol than shotgun.

[beeser]

how old are you talking about? and I think more people shoot/reload for rifle/pistol than shotgun.

I suspect that's the reason. A good example for my question is the Texan reloaders made in the '70s. A 1974 Texan catalog shows their Model M shotshell reloader retailing for over $300 while their Model 101 turret for metallic going for about $100. Today, the same shotshell reloader can be found for about half the price of the metallic.

[bhn22]

A lot of the older shotshell press manufacturers are gone, and progressive shotshell presses have a lof of moving parts that wear, and get out of adjustment. A friend has six, count 'em, six Texans that he can't get parts for. Since he's a machinist, he's making what he needs to keep them going and is considering making parts for them to sell. Texans are pretty complicated presses, and I'll doubtlessly end up with one of the afore mentioned six presses when he gets them sorted out. He took one completely apart to see what makes it work. It took quite a bit of time to get it back together so it worked correctly. I do also believe that the metallic reloaders are much more desirable, and that's a major reason they're so expensive.

[EDG]

A shotshell press these days will not save much money due to the cost of shot. Many people just gave up reloading and shoot the promotional loads for trap, skeet and upland birds.

A metallic press is more flexible since it can reload hundreds of different rounds. There are only 5 or maybe 6 shotshell gauges that you can reload and only 2 of them are really popular.

[Kevin Rohrer]

I also think that old shotshell loaders are considered to be "old" technology, whereas newer ones are better. The same cannot be said about metallic presses. The technology has not improved any. A Hollywood Model-A made in 1935 will load ammo just as fast and well as a brand-new RCBS Rockchucker.

[Walter Laich]

A shotshell press these days will not save much money due to the cost of shot.
+1
I reload to tailor loads to a shoulder that has undergone rotator cuff surgery

[Tom R]

A lot of the older shotshell press manufacturers are gone, and progressive shotshell presses have a lof of moving parts that wear, and get out of adjustment. A friend has six, count 'em, six Texans that he can't get parts for. Since he's a machinist, he's making what he needs to keep them going and is considering making parts for them to sell. Texans are pretty complicated presses, and I'll doubtlessly end up with one of the afore mentioned six presses when he gets them sorted out. He took one completely apart to see what makes it work. It took quite a bit of time to get it back together so it worked correctly. I do also believe that the metallic reloaders are much more desirable, and that's a major reason they're so expensive.

That free time thing always gets in the way!

[Pressman]

the difference in demand for the old tools is driven by the personalities of the users. Shotgunners are a very different breed than rifle/handgunners. Sgotgunners are gentlemen, rifle men are hunters and folks who drive pickups with guns in the back window and rebel flag decals on the bumper. To the shotgunner the gun is everything. They treasure a fine gun with an unpronounceable European name. The shotshell reloader is just a tool that feeds their guns need for ammo. Sure there are some component experiments that may or may not give a better load, just like there are for rifle shooters. But the amount of custom experimentation is more limited. When that magic load is discovered all additional experimentation stops. Rifle shooters are constantly looking for that magic load. Just look at the selection of powder, bullets, primers and cases found in the laboratory (1930's term for today's reloading man cave).

Metallic presses are just cooler, and more usable for a wide range of reloading tasks. Just as riflemen have a collection of rifles and handguns to reload for.

Ken

[Springfield]

I think it is more of a metallic reloader will work for all our guns, with different dies, and will get used quite a bit, so you want something nice. Whereas a Mec Jr will turn out perfectly fine shells for cheap, no need for a nice cast iron press.

[3006guns]

I have a three die set for 12 gauge, virtually new, that will thread into a Herter's metallic press. I only use the sizing/decapping die for my paper hulled black powder loads and even that really isn't necessary as all the operations can be done with simple home made tools. The other dies sit unused on my shelf and as already stated, once I found a satisfactory load that performed on jack rabbits...which didn't take much...further development/experimentation stopped dead. I cast my own #4 shot with a hand held mold, load with 2fg and go bang away, perhaps twice a year, and it's done for fun more that economic reasons.

Pressman is correct. Metallic reloading presses are far more popular due to their flexibility and broad range of possibilities. He is incorrect about metallic rifle and pistol shooters however...........I am a gentleman, dang it! :)

[W.R.Buchanan]

Pressman did get the point out about Shot Gunners being Gentlemen,,, or at least thinking they are.

I have a friend who is such a person. Extremely knowledgeable about guns in general and Shotguns, especially the nice ones, in particular.

He did the wood on my Ithaca and it came out great. I have seen other work he's done on High Dollar stocks where the blank of wood was worth $5000!

An Decent Quality Entry Level O/U Shotgun,,, IE; a Browning or Beretta will set you back $2000. A nice Beretta or Browning is more like $5000. Kreighoffs start at about 10K for nice used ones like a K80 Trap gun with 250,000 rounds thru it,,, and about $16 grand for a new K20 20/28/.410 set. These are entry level Kreighoffs! and all parts of a given model are completely interchangeable. In other words you can buy sets of barrels, stocks, receivers etc. and everything goes together with minimal hand fitting... As a result the guns never wear out. It is nothing for a nice shotgun to shoot 100,000 rounds a year and need new springs about every other year. They are made for the long haul, and that's why they cost more than a Remington 870.

The really good stuff starts off at about $40K and goes strait out the top. The wood and the engraving are the Wild Cards in this stuff.

My friend finally received a Perrazzi a year ago that he had bought 2 years earlier for $52,000. It was made for him, fitted to him, and even has his initials in gold inlay on the bottom of the receiver. It is a K20 with 2 sets of 32" bbls in 20/28 ga. It came with both a single trigger lock and a double trigger lock that he can use for Hunting or Sporting clays. It already after just one season has 25,000 rounds thru it and he shoots Skeet and Sporting Clays with it. He also shoots about 3-5 times a week and mainly shoots the 28 ga. barrels. I have held the gun and it is spectacular!!

Needless to say he reloads all his 28 ga. hulls as no one could afford to shoot as much as he does buying factory 28's at $12-14 a box. He has 3 MEC reloading machines which reload all his ammo and usually spends one full day of loading per week and also stock piles ammo during the off season.

This guy is NOT rich. He simply loves his shotguns and has several safes full of them and has spent most of his life collecting them. He also has never been married and has no kids! He is a retired Toolmaker from Abex Corp. and has a nice pension which he is enjoying the way he wants to. He has got some really bitchin' guns.

My point is Shotshell Loaders are tools which are usually used to load 1 load, but load a lot of them. I have 5 machines from a Single Stage Pacific that I load all my .410's on, to a Spolar which is the Cadillac of Reloading Machines and well in excess of even a Dillon 1050. My Spolar is virtually new. I could sell it for 98% of the current new price in 15 minutes on the Trapshooters.com website. That would be about $1700!

There are also a lot of inexpensive machines out there like MEC's that work just fine and start at $190. However don't be fooled into thinking shotshell presses are normally cheaper than metallic presses. It all depends on what you want. you can spend as much as you want and the difference between a MEC and a Spolar, is the Spolar will do 900 rounds an hour!

There is an **** for every seat.

Randy

[wv109323]

With the price of shotshell ammo per 100 it is hard to come out on shotshell reloading. Wal-mart sells 100 rounds for about $26.00 or 26 cents per round . For the occasional shooter a couple hundred rounds per year is enough. It would never have a payback to invest in reloading equipment at that rate.
Locally lead shot is around $50.00 per 25 pound bag. That is 12.5 cents per round. Powder is going to be around 10 cents per round and primers around 4 cents per pound. Wads are 2-3 cents.
You could have more in reloads than you could buy promo ammo for.
The only way it makes sense to reload shotshells is to buy shot by the pallet or truck load. Trap or skeet clubs can make it worth while to reload but the average Joe can not come out.
Therefore shotshell equipment is not in high demand and priceed accordingly.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Where shotshell reloading really comes into it's own is in High Volume. Guys shooting 1000 rounds a week can't afford to shoot that much with Factory ammo, even from Walmart. Typically this time of year, or more properly right before dove season, they sell cases of 10 boxes/250 rounds for around @$45.00 which is pretty cheap. (.18 per round) But it is only on sale once a year and there are limits as to how much you can buy. The hulls don't reload that well either.

But if you are serious competitor you would never feed your $20,000 shotgun with that garbage. You would use only nice Winchester AA's Or Remington STS's at $$8.00+ per box or .32 a round. Those Hulls do reload nicely so there is a bit of investment in future ammo included with the initial purchase.

Using Reclaimed shot at $25-27 per bag is 6-7 cents per round + .03 for the primer and .03 for the wad. Powder is .06 per round for a grand total of .19-.20 per round. this is for 12 gauge.

When you start looking at 28's or .410's the picture changes dramatically.

First there are no cheap factory .410's or 28's,,, they are all $12.50+ a box which is .50 per shot.

A .410 uses the same primer at .03 and the wad costs the same at .03. however it only uses 1/2 oz of shot which means 800 rounds per 25 lb bag of shot. Now with .410's you pretty much have to use new shot which is about $45.00 a bag for #9's so figure .05 per round and powder is also lower at 435 rounds per pound of H110 or .05 per round. For a grand total of .16 a shot which is 1/3 the cost of factory ammo. So you can see the savings there.

I have enough powder, shot, wads, and primers to load thousands of rounds of both 12 ga and .410's and I bought this stuff several years ago for a lot less than current prices. I can load about 3-4 boxes per hour of .410's or 12's on my single stage loaders. I can load about 8 boxes per hour on my DL366, and about 30-36 boxes per hour on the Spolar.

Lots of high end shooters use Spolar's simply because they are the Cadillac's of all Reloading Machines, and the production rate is so high that the time invested is minimal. That's if you are adding your time into the equation which really you should be doing.

If you are going to shoot alot you simply have to reload, or else get someone to sponsor you to ammunition.

Good luck on that last one.

Randy

[baogongmeo]

I reload my 28s a lot cheaper than I can buy them and my pheasant load is an ounce and a half baby magnum 12ga AA hull load that I first started loading back in the 70s for ducks and now days they cost me 20% to 25% of factory equivalent

[Mike Kerr]

Boy, I like this thread. Got Ken and Randy both involved.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Always willing to drop in my .02

Randy

[beeser]

Always willing to drop in my .02

Randy

Randy,
I may have asked this before but are you any relation to the Buchanan associated with the development of the Star and Dircks loaders as mentioned in articles written by Ken Walters of Handloader's Digest?

[W.R.Buchanan]

No,,, but the name is spelled the same. There are other "Less Pure" spellings.

The Buchanan Machine which someone posted pics of once was the basis for the C&H Auto Champ and RCBS Green Machine.

Randy

[tonyjones]

The pool of reloaders shooting metallic cartridges is, I suspect, much larger than the group of folks reloading shotshells. That would account for metallic loading equipment commanding a higher price. It also seems to me that, as a group, shotgunners are not all that nostalgic about their loading equipment.

I hand load shotshells and metallic cartridges and have done so for 50 years. I will continue to do so for several reasons:

The factories do not produce the loads I shoot. For example, my favorite 12 ga. dove load is 3/4 oz. nickle plated #8 shot at about 1,700 fps mv.

My handloads for the sub bores cost about 1/3 as much factory ammo.

For my purposes, my handloads are superior to factory ammunition and they offer a huge performance advantage over the promo loads sold by the "big box" stores.

Not everyone will agree and that is fine as there are valid reasons to take an alternate path.

Best regards,

Tony

[W.R.Buchanan]

as Tony said there are advantages to loading shotshells, and the cost of the sub bores is one, but being able to load unique loads is another.

Nobody makes a Pumpkin Ball or Slug Load at 1100 fps as a factory load... I do. My shoulder is still in place after shooting a bunch of them as they are simply my normal trap loads with a ball instead of shot.

My shoulder required 3 trips to my Chiro after shooting just 2 rounds of Federal Slugs which turned out to be loaded to 1600+ fps in a 7 lb shotgun.

I no longer have this problem!

Reloading Shotshells falls right in with Loading Boolits, it is just slightly different but it all comes under the heading of Reloading.

People who load their own ammo tend to shoot more, and that's a fact.

I shot today. I sucked outright but I still pulled the trigger 50 times which is more than most did today. I shot all reloaded .303's with Cast Boolits. Next time it maybe .45 autos or my Skeet Gun. About the only time I shoot factory ammo is when I need cases to reload or shoot a .22.

As far as the relative cost of the equipment. I buy whatever it takes to accomplish what I want to do. I also shop for the best prices.

I am into "good deals." so I seldom pay full pop.

But if you compare Dillon Equipment or Hornady stuff to MEC shotshell loaders there is a significant difference. The reason for this is the manufacturing cost not the volume of sales. Numbers of used machines on the market also will affect prices. My Pacific DL266 in 12 ga. cost me $50 and was almost new. My Pacific DL266 in .410 cost me $250 and I was lucky to get it at any price. Point being less of the .410's were made, and now, none are made.

If you compare Dillon Shotshell loaders to Dillon Metallic loaders You will see a definite similarity, and also Hornady loaders to each other. Pricing of these machines used is either driven by condition or popularity. Some people just price stuff to get rid of it. MY Pacific DL366 sat in a guys garage for 20 years. I paid him $150 for it which was what he paid for it used 20 years earlier. It took me about 6 hours to tear it apart and clean it up. I now have a virtually new DL366 which will easily outlast me. I will easily get $350+ for that machine just because it is in excellent condition and all the parts are still made by Hornady.

Also I have a PW MetalMatic II which is a $500 machine but their Shotshell loaders are more even though they are similar in nature but the shotshell loaders are generally more complicated machines so they cost more.

I hadn't considered this earlier when posting on this thread but really comparing Dillon Metalic Presses to MEC Loaders is comparing apples to oranges.

If you compare machines within the same brand you will see that pricing is commensurate to the complexity of the machines and the used ones tend to be priced according to condition. This is the only really valid way to make this comparison. I know I will get nearly new price for all my machines when I decide to sell them.

Randy

[bhn22]

That free time thing always gets in the way!

Aye. The time issue rears it's ugly head again.

[Greg S]

The problem with the old progressives shot shell presses were alot of casted parts for use in a high production machine that saw very little full lube maintenance. Parts wear out, companies close and repair parts become unavailable which results in scavenging 2-3 machines to make kne functiong copy. About the most cost effective is the MEC but after a few years parts replacement becomes common and stuff goes outta adjustment easier.

The new loader or more $$$ (think PW and Spolar) are/were designed for high volume. Spolar went out on his own after working at PW and PW was not looking to improve their machines any longer and just run the course of the design.

So, to get back on topic; it is kinda hard to kill an old RCBS Rock Chucker made of a machined iron casting with hardened steel components when compared to a stanped steel machine or one using pot metal castings for high load use. Does an aluminum Lee press with 20 years of hard use, no maintenance and 50K of primer residue grinding the shaft and casting still hold its value. I think quality of materials and design trump the used market.

Oh BTW, Spolar shotshell reloaders rock!