Incipient case failure at shoulder in 43 Spanish Jameson brass

[ohland]

I noticed a little groove about 1/4 of the diameter of the shoulder on two JBA 43 Spanish brass, might be from the recent BACO order.

Whazzat? Only been BP (or BP w/ 5gr 5744) fired through them to my knowledge. We only have one 43 Spanish, so different headspace isn't an issue.

144270

What could be going on? With modern bottleneck cases, I see vertical splits in the neck, or the ring down towards the head, but this split following the shoulder is new to me...

:veryconfu

[Don McDowell]

Did I read in the single shot section where you had been duplexing that also?
Most likely it's from a chamber problem.
Might want to contact Captec and see what they have to tell you.

[Lead pot]

It's not only Jamison but also Starline. Here is the last batch of Starline .45-100 fired just a few times. I sent them a E-Mail and photo's and never got a reply from them.
No problem with the old brass from them, or the Cases from Norma.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_2339_zpsylmw7wen.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_2339_zpsylmw7wen.jpg.html)

[Gunlaker]

Kurt when you posted those pictures on Don's site I mentioned that I'd had a few Starline .45-90 cases start to separate. I haven't had any completely separate, but they start to form a crescent shaped indentation on the inside. Always at the same spot. Well last night I had a look at a bunch of brand new cases and about 25% of mine have faint creases on the inside at the same spot!

Chris.

[Jim2]

This has me looking into all my straight-walled Starline case, new and fired a few times. None of them showed creases or stretched marks inside or outside. I will keep an eye on them though. Thanks for the heads-up,

Jim

[Gunlaker]

I imagine I just got a bad batch. Probably from the same lot as Kurt's :-). I've had bad batches from a few different manufacturers over the years. The only thing I really don't like about my Starline brass is the rim thickness variation. This is common to all th Starline brass I've ever used. My favorite brands are Norma and Remington. I have yet to try the new Captech stuff but might at some time. It's bit trickier up here in Canada as it's much harder to get anything even slightly unusual.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

Chris.

It's not just and me having separations at the base. At the last gong shoot a couple weeks ago we were sitting in camp and another shooter had this problem also. I had three during the week just like the once in the photo above. Yes there is a lot of rim thickness variations but I shoot tight fitting PP rounds and I let the breach block cam the round in as much as the block allows to do this and that eliminates the rim head space.
The problem I see with the cases above is the base diameters. They run by average .499 +- and if you make a chamber cast and measure the base diameter of your rifles you will find the diameters run .502" plus and if you split one of those cases that show a ring a 1/4" above the rim you will also see that ring on the inside of the case. The 4 cases that pulled apart 1/2 way, thse cases are about .004" thick at that point.

ohland,

neck separation on the blk powder bottle case will happen if you set the shoulder back to far using an improper sizing die adjustment, bullet with a crimp holding it. That portion of the bottle necked case of a blk powder cartridge case is a weak point. These cases are a lot thinner then a HP case in the shoulder.
Back your sizing die off a little so you stop necking it down ahead of the shoulder.
Back your seating die off a little so you don't put a crimp on the case mouth.
Trim your cases so they are of equal length and adjust your seating die for those cases without putting a crimp on the case mouth.
Get a proper case mouth expander for minimal neck tension. To much neck tension will pull the necks off or the shoulders setback to far on these thin walled case necks.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_2411_zpsu9eib1nn.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_2411_zpsu9eib1nn.jpg.html)

[ohland]

neck separation on the blk powder bottle case will happen if you set the shoulder back to far using an improper sizing die adjustment, bullet with a crimp holding it. That portion of the bottle necked case of a blk powder cartridge case is a weak point. These cases are a lot thinner then a HP case in the shoulder.
Back your sizing die off a little so you stop necking it down ahead of the shoulder.
Back your seating die off a little so you don't put a crimp on the case mouth.
Trim your cases so they are of equal length and adjust your seating die for those cases without putting a crimp on the case mouth.
Get a proper case mouth expander for minimal neck tension. To much neck tension will pull the necks off or the shoulders setback to far on these thin walled case necks.



Arrgh. Bear with me, it's the old retrobate reloading these. First, I LOATHE the Lee Universal expander. If God had meant us to use a funnel to expand our cases, he'd have done so. On Monday I'll call NOE and see about getting a Lee / Lyman expander plug made. When I called Lyman about the 43R, there was a the sound of one hand clapping.

UPDATE: Neither Lyman or RCBS have .439 as a stock neck expander size... I'm shocked, simply shocked.

I can measure the unloaded cases, I know that one was 2.258, and the case should not be longer than 2.250.

A little help, here. Not many case trimmer pilots for the .439 boolit. Any recommended ways to trim the case back? I'd have to get a Forster #4 Collet and have a pilot made up for the .439 diameter. I think there is an Acculine (orange) trimmer, that MIGHT have a suitable pilot. I know the rim holding arrangement worked with the 43 Spanish (or I think it did).

UPDATE: Lyman nor RCBS show a standard pilot for .439.... But the sorta close .44 is a .429 diameter... close enough for BP.

I don't believe the OR is crimping, more that the cases run into the end of the chamber.

Remember, reloading saves you money... :veryconfu

UPDATE: The Lyman shell holder gizmo won't hold the 43 - it's a little too big. I did find a Forster pilot that fits fairly well, but all THREE case trimmers are pre-2010, and the opening into the collet housing is TOO small to accept the .595 diameter rim... SNAP!

[Lead pot]

Lee loading equipment is ok for a low budget reloading but sooner then later that stuff gets pushed under the bench and replaced.

I would not get a trimmer that uses a collet to hold the case. Here is why. A collet is drawn into the tool to hold it tight and you just cant get a precise length cut because of the rim diameter variances and the amount of pressure you draw the collet in. I know that I will get some disagreements saying that, but I been down that road.
My choice is the Wilson trimmer. http://ads.midwayusa.com/find?userSearchQuery=wilson+case+trimmer&cm_mmc=ps_google-_-google-_-RL_Metallic_Reloading_Equipment_Beta_G-_-wilson+case+trimmer&gclid=CMCeosip1MYCFQ-IaQodogkC5A I turned to this trimmer I have been using this trimmer and loading and dies since the mid 60's and it has not failed me. I also bought a trimmer for the .50 Sharps.
If you want or need a special holder for any shape of case just send them a case and they will make a holder for it. If the hand crank is to slow for you, they have an adapter for a drill motor.
Buffalo Arms http://www.buffaloarms.com/reloading_supplies_pr-4427.aspx will make you just about what ever you need for reloading.

[Don McDowell]

http://www.buffaloarms.com/.385_.449_custom_expanders_pr-4167.aspx?CAT=4167

If you can get Lee to get you a properly sized shell holder for their trimmer, the 444 marlin case length depth guage and cutter work pretty well.

[Dan Cash]

Forster will modify your smaller collet holder at no charge as I recall. Criticism of collet holding systems apply to trimmers such as RCBS wich does pull the collet . The Forster system pushes the collet against a dead stop and the length is the same regardless of the torque applied.

[Lead pot]

Dan.

You are correct about the forester trimmer. It does push the collet forward to a stop and the collet is not threaded to be pulled back into the closing cone. Forester makes excellent reloading products. I just live a couple miles down the road from them and they have done a lot of custom work for me.
And they will also make a custom diameter pilot to fit your case.

[ohland]

Dropped hammer on the Forster Original Case Trimmer Kit. Didn't want to go that much, but the pilots, collets, AND the .610 diameter collet housing opening makes up for the butt pain. I ordered a #4 collet already.

Off in the future, the outside neck trimmer fits on the original, not on the classic, so this will be good for me... I hope.

OK, mark one down, excessive case length. I suggested to the OR that perhaps he should go straight black. He demurred at the time, but on a later phone conversation, he mentioned to the unindighted co-conspirator that maybe his duplex was not helpful....

I'm going to have to fix the boolit as well. He lathe turned the RCBS 44-370-FN from .445 to .440, how they will shoot, I have no earthly ideal. I am sure the Red Chinese that slapped the lathe together never sold a bullet holding chuck...

Now you all can see the results of trying to do a nice thing snowball into buying more gear to fix underlying faults. I should have left the 43 Spanish RB in the corner at the rate this is going...

Weaver scope base, machining to adapt it to #10 screws.
Jameson Brass (two smoked so far)
Case trimmer suitable for 43 Spanish
439186 boolit mould (inbound)
Aggravation over the failed Cerrosafe chamber cast (leave cast in for less than five minutes!!!)

After the OR gets his fill of the 43, I want to get a 44-77 reamer and FIX the neck...

[Lead pot]

[smilie=f:It wont end here :)

[ohland]

[smilie=f:It wont end here :)

If I survive his infatuation with the 43, I can make it better (IMHO) with the 44-77, because that SHOULD allow me to load 45 caliber minie balls (280 grains!) and let the HB do the work.

[ohland]

Well, the OR staggered up the steps, and the two lathe turned bullets needed to be crimped, and then they wouldn't fit in the RB.

[John Boy]

Jameson Brass (two smoked so far) And whatever do, don't order any Betrams!
I'm convinced lathe turned brass far exceeds the quality of extruded cases. And Rocky Mountain Cartridge stands behind what they produce ... http://www.rockymountaincartridge.com/index_htm_files/RMC%20Product%20List.pdf

Example: I bought 40 Stevens 25-21 very thin wall cases made by Bertram. First shooting at the range - 39 of the 40 had a case crack about an inch plus long. Have shot the RMC 25-21's multiple times and not one case failure

[EDG]

I has seen these neck and tube shoot offs complained about on other forums where only BP is used. It usually happens when some on is mopping the bore out between each round and the round is fired with a wet chamber.

Here is my theory

I have seen photos of a fired BPCR round after the bullet has exited the bore about 2 inches. A lot of the the powder is blown out of the muzzle too and it looks like a burning dirt clod at the base of the bullet. BP kernels are sharp edged and have sharp corners. I think when a BP round is fired the kernels compact into a mass that is highly compressed. The compression forces the kernel edges outward against the case walls and the sharp edges grab the inside of the case. Because the outside of the case is compressed against a film of water that will not compress the case outside cannot grab the chamber and is able to slip. The friction with the clod of compressed BP pulls the case neck or body off. Sometimes it sticks in the bore and sometimes it exits the bore.

Like I said it is my theory. I have fired thousands of smokeless rounds in BPCRs at the original velocities. The total number of rifles is over a dozen and I have never had a case fail in that manner.

[ohland]

I has seen these neck and tube shoot offs complained about on other forums where only BP is used. It usually happens when some on is mopping the bore out between each round and the round is fired with a wet chamber.

The previous range day was with 80gr FFg, and I remember the odd black line on the shoulder rim. We were running a patch down after each shot for awhile, there were lead sprinkles on the patch (we were using .445 boolits sized to .439). After a few more shots, the sprinkles went away. I have seen fouling on cases up near the neck from low pressure loads / stiff brass / whatever, and it was never as highly defined as that thin black line.

[Lead pot]

Ed what you say about moped chambers is quite probable in a wet chamber, no doubt about that.
A bottle necked chamber in the black powder cartridge rifle is more prone to stretch and separate case necks then the straight walled cases. At present I'm shooting three bottle necked rifles and what stretches the necks faster in those is a heavy compressed load of black powder. I don't load rounds with brass not properly cleaned because a dirty neck will stretch. Not because of the powder grabbing it so much but more from the wads and bullet that expands when the charge goes off. This is real evident if you look at recovered bullets that are not damaged. You can see just how far a bullet moves and expands in that short period of time before it leaves the case. and if you have a crimp or dirty un chamfered case mouth or a case to long for the chamber the bullet will pull the case neck over the 45 degree transition in the chamber holding the bullet even tighter the case neck pulling the neck. There is not just one or two causes that pull the case necks.
If you look at the photo below. Five out of five rounds suffered from bullets stretching the case necks.
In this case I was developing some PP loads and they were loaded with out a lube wad and a .030 plastic wad over the powder and a .023 OJ carton wad under the bullet and a 100 gr load of Swiss 2FG. The lack of lube gave the wads and bullet extra friction on the case neck and pulled it. I also had some loaded at that time using Goex express and it did not separate the necks but it did stretch them slightly. Why did the Swiss cause more damage?????? don't know!!!
I also loaded several .45-2.4 rounds in the same manner and I had no problem in the Rem Stretched .45-70 brass.

Kurt

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_0431.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_0431.jpg.html)

[ohland]

A bottle necked chamber in the black powder cartridge rifle is more prone to stretch and separate case necks then the straight walled cases. At present I'm shooting three bottle necked rifles and what stretches the necks faster in those is a heavy compressed load of black powder. I don't load rounds with brass not properly cleaned because a dirty neck will stretch. Not because of the powder grabbing it so much but more from the wads and bullet that expands when the charge goes off. This is real evident if you look at recovered bullets that are not damaged. You can see just how far a bullet moves and expands in that short period of time before it leaves the case. and if you have a crimp or dirty un chamfered case mouth or a case to long for the chamber the bullet will pull the case neck over the 45 degree transition in the chamber holding the bullet even tighter the case neck pulling the neck. There is not just one or two causes that pull the case necks. Kurt

What kind of action are you shooting? Falling Block or rolling block?

[ohland]

Well, shooting the frankenboolits wasn't bad with the recoil pad, but lathe turning boolits is not condusive to accuracy.

The trimmer and collet arrived, a .432 pilot is close enough, and now all I have to do is boil out the new (to me) 439186 and cast some boolits.The alloy is down around 12 BHN, the old retrobate will load straight BP, mabe good boolits will straighten some things up. There were about 6 boolits that were in the 9 ring at 50yds, but I could use some frequent flier miles... Finally unshipped the front and rear sling swivel posts, they hang up if you aren't careful EVERY shot.

The OR will probably use the over power wad... it just makes me wonder if an OPW isn't sitting below the neck and jacking things up.... On a positive note, the 439186 has a lot better lub setup (more lub luv) than the old boolits....

I should do some RCBS 45-300-FN and 439186 so I can keep up a good cadence...

BTW, I picked up two of the CB annuals, and in one article, the OP mentions with bottom pour, have the lead pour onto the sprue plate and then flow into the mould, so that impurities can float to the top... I must try it. I'll try a lot of things once, and if it feels good, I'll do it again...