what is the safest depth to drill scope mounting screws

[corey012778]

i am working on an MN project. pretty much working on a tight budget and lack of gunsmiths willing or affordable. I am going to (well) bite the bullet and do it my self. I am going to practice on some scrap steel that should be close to the same thickness of the area I am wanting to do.

I am wanting to drill thru the mount I have, down to the rear sight dove tail, counter sink the holes on the base I have and mount that to the dovetail.

mount I am using
144161

dovetail (work in progress, have a lot to do still, planning on cleaning up the outside and refreshing the blue or even rebluing the barrel)
144162 144164

[Char-Gar]

You can safely drill through the side wall of the action or the rear receiver ring for a side mount.

If you are using a mount where you have to drill on the receiver over the barrel that is another matter entirely. In that case, I would go no deeper than 5/32 of an inch. That is deep enough for screw to hold any mount against heavy recoil.

Please bear in mind that if a hole is drilled all the way through the front receiver ring, into the threads on the barrel, the barrel will be a booger to remove should you ever need to do that.

[pietro]

.

Since your pic shows that you intend to drill into an area integral to the barrel, I would advise that the maximum depth your hole(s) can be drilled would be at a point half the barrel wall thickness from the edge of the bore.


.

[LAGS]

Three full threads is a standard.
That gives you a hole drilled into the barrel about .100. to .120 max depth
I do not recomend drilling Half the wall thickness of the barrel especially just ahead of the chamber.
Your screws will probably be 6/48 or 8/40
Devide out the depth of each turn to see about how many threads you will have when the screw bottoms out.
6/48 is 48 turns equal 1" , 8/40 is 40 full turns equals 1"
Now remember, You do not want your screw to Totally Bottom out in the hole.
So a hole drilled .100 deep, will when tapped with a Bottom tap, get you three or even 4 full turns into the barrel
BTW, 6/62 and 8/32 screws are not a good choice for holding on sights.
The threads are too corse, and not as strong as a Finer thread 6/48.
But use a 6/32 to practice tapping on some scrap.
Replacement taps are cheaper and more availabe if you break one.
But do order yourself some Gunsmith size taps and drills from Midway or Brownell's if you havent already.

[corey012778]

I do have some on order can't remember what size

sounds like I should just go with the original plan, but may still practice. was hoping just to go into the dovetail section and not make it in to the barrel.

original plan was just make a spot for a set screw to set in.

[LAGS]

Now, Lets Measure your Barrel.
Measure the outside diameter of your barrel Just AHEAD of your rear sight.
On a MN it is about .760
Then subtract the bore diameter, say .312 and that gives you .448. then devide .448 by 2 and you have a barrel wall thickness of .224 at that point.
Drilling .100 deep is still under half of the wall thickness.
But Wait.
Now Measure the thickness of the barrel at the dovetail from top to bottom.
Take that number and subtract the Barrel Width at the same point on the barrel.
That will show you how much more metal you have on the Top of the barrel at the dovetail.
If it is a little bit more than the wall thickness, then you have a comfort zone when drilling from the top and could go deeper with your hole a little bit.
Now If you are using the screw to keep your scope base from sliding and not just using it to Totally hold it on to the barrel then you could use a 6/32 size and be fine
But max you would be able to get is 2 1/2 to 3 threads on a corser 6/32 screw in a .100 deep hole
Sheer strength would be ok, but Pull out wont be as much as if you used a finer thread.

[corey012778]

the metal stock I am going to use for practice is .12555, mn dovetail is .101 to the barrel. also looking at an exposed pin hole. took a close it is cut into the barrel a little. measured from the top to the bottom of the cut. .110

[LAGS]

If you are going to teach yourself to drill and tap, then I suggest you start off drilling a hole all the way thru something, and then Tap it all the way thru.
Do that several times, till you get the FEEL of what the tap cutting and binding feels like.
Then try tapping a Bottom hole. You will have a better idea of how a tap should feel, and get a sence of what it feels like when you get to the bottom of the hole and need to stop before the tap bottoms out and locks up.

I forgot that you have a 91/30 that has sight base retaining pin holes thru the barrel.
You are safe if you do not Drill any deeper than the bottom of the pin hole depth, measured from the top of the dovetail top flat area.
Good luck.
What Gunsmith Books did you order, ? I may also have the same ones.
You said you want to Reblue your rifle.
Have you thought about Slow Rust Bluing ? you can do that yourself at home for minimal expense and it is WAY more durable than any Cold Bluing Process. I do all my rifles in Slow Rust Blue on my kitchen stove or gass grill in the back yard.

[corey012778]

I got something called nu blue, going to try it on an muzzleloader trigger guard that I stripped the blue off of when I was taking care of a rust problem. not near any of that yet. wed. and thur. are busy days personally. plus I am taking it easy for a week or so.

one I can recall off the top of my head is gunsmithing made easy, the other two I had to pull up. gunsmithing rifles and do it your self gunsmith. just the start, going to order some more down the road. had a really old book don't know where it is.

[pietro]

I do not recomend drilling Half the wall thickness of the barrel especially just ahead of the chamber.





FWIW, neither did I - I only posited that depth as a maximum safe depth.


.

[LAGS]

I do have the Gunsmithing Made Easy.
That is very informative, and has a chapter on building a Mauser Action and setting the Headspace on a Short chambered barrel.
I think that will come in handy for that Mauser you may want to Rebarrel someday.

@ Pietro.
Half way is the Max. safe distance you can drill into the barrel, As you correctly stated, But I use caution when instructing someone New, so they Fully understand How you measure a Barrel to determine what is the Actual wall thickness.
Like I suggested measuring the barrel Ahead of the rear sight.
Half that Wall thickness would be safe for the rear of the sight base diameter.
But if you measured the barrel at the rear of the sight base, and used that wall thickness for the Front screw, with a slight barrel Taper, you could be more than half the wall thickness.

Also, Half the wall thickness INCLUDES the Point of the Drill.
But the Tap, will not tap in that pointed area left by the drill point.
But when you measure the depth of the hole you drilled, it usually only reads the Shank or straight portion of the Hole, not the point area.
If they can work with a depth that is Less Than half the wall thickness, the better off they are

[pietro]

.

Yep - If someone's going to err, it's best they err on the side of caution.


.

[corey012778]

lags, I see way you suggest 6/32 screw. can find them just about every where.

think I have a game plan. do all my practice on the metal stock I have. I have to measure the width, but from eyeballing it. it is not far off. since I am planning on drill how thru the mount, I could place the mount on the metal stock and use it to set my drill press stop before trying it on my barrel.

for what I am doing I could just use a 10-24 or 10-32 screw. but good practice for any thing I want to do in the future

[LAGS]

You can practice with the #10 taps, then work down to the smaller tap sizes.
But a # 10 screw is a little big for mounting a scope base.
I am lucky, even though I have several screw sets for doing gunsmith work, I found that a local ACE Hardware store by my job stocks and sells some common screws in Gunsmith thread like the 6/48 , 3/56, and 8/40.
The selection isnt that good but it is a good place to go when I am running low on a certain size and am not ready to place an order with Brownell's or Midway, Nor have the time to wait for them to be shipped.

I looked thru my books, and do not have the other two that you mentioned.
But one reason I suggested looking in Goodwill or secod hand stores is,
Many of the books I find are Old and out of print. Many are from the '60's thru 80's
And many were written before we had all the Gunsmith Jigs and gadgets that you can buy now.
The Books show how it use to be done back in the day. But still is a good way to do things, and in a lot of cases , more economical for the guy just starting out. You learn to Hone your skills and not to depend on some fancy overpriced Jig or fixture.
Before I moved to Arizona, my wall looked like the Gunsmith's wall in the movie "Sniper" , a whole collection of gunsmithing books.
Come to think of it, I do also kinda look like him too.

[LAGS]

If you want to order more Books, I would suggest one called Gunsmithing Kinks 1 & 2
Lots of good tricks of the trade on all kinds of things.
You can learn about perticular Qwerks on a variety of guns.
I consult my books from time to time , just to come up with Ideas for other projects .

[andremajic]

16 oz of Andy's rust blue for only 12.00+shipping in swapping and selling section!

(Shameless plug!)

[LAGS]

Next go round, I may just give Andy's a try

[corey012778]

16 oz of Andy's rust blue for only 12.00+shipping in swapping and selling section!

(Shameless plug!)

shame shame :kidding:

I have the 6/48 tap came in today. ordered a 6/32 tap just in case. do have a little experience in drill and tapping, did homemade ramrods. and drum for a muzzleloader but that has be a while ago.

had every measurement but not the base. well do now, thin area is .499 thickest .900.

[LAGS]

Is your 6/48 tap a, Taper Tap, Plug tap , or a Bottom Tap ?
If you intend to tap a hole in the top of the barrel , you will need a Bottom Tap
A .120 deep hole, the tapered tap point will hit bottom before it cuts one full thread.
Also, did you get the right size number drill for a 6/48 tap ?
Close is not good enough when doing fine threads or Gunsmith work.
BTW
Where are you getting those measurments on your barrel.
Is the .499 at the muzzle, or is that the wall thickness at the front of the old rear sight ?
And the ,900 ? where is that ?
Are you using a dial caliper to take measurements ?

[corey012778]

bottom tap, and yes I order the right drill bit.

dovetail scout scope mount. the set screw stinks. wanting a better mount set up. figure I can make it more rock solid.

144234 144235


duh, I did not measure the right areas :groner:

[LAGS]

You should measure the barrel WIDTH at the part right below the front of the sight Dovetail with a Dial Caliper or Micrometer.
Then measure the Barrel Width right below the Rear of the dovetail.
Then subtract the .312 BORE diameter from those two numbers, and then devide each of those numbers by 2.
That will give you the barrel Wall thickness at the front of the dovetail, and the rear of the dovetail.
And that is the area you will be drilling to mount your base.
Your mount has set screws that Pinch the scope base on the dovetail , correct ?
Leaving the set screws and drilling and tapping the Base, so you can add two more set screws going Down may just keep your mount in place without having to drill into the barrel.
And you can install the mount with the top set screws tight, then remove the base, Look for the set screw marks on the flat of the dovetail top, so you can drill two Detent dimples in the top of the dovetail to help front and rear movement.
Then if that doesnt work, you can drill the base out thru the same holes for a screw to pass thru, Then, drill and tap the barrel in the same detents, for the new screw to thread into the barrel.

[corey012778]

I measured from the point of where the mount meets under the dovetail not the width of the flat point of where the mount sets on top. using a caliper and micrometer to confirm my measurements.

[LAGS]

You want to Measure th Round part of the barrel.
You do not measure any part of the dovetail or any where near it.
It is like drawing a Circle in a circle.
The outside circle is the Barrell Diameter.
The Inside Circle is the diameter of the BORE
Barrel diameter, minus Bore diameter, Devided by 2 equals the wall thickness on one side of the barrel.
But that wall thickness is the same all around the barrel, unless you have a Fatter part like on top of the barrel from the dovetail being on top of the barrel.

[corey012778]

ok, had to reread the last 2 or 3 post. got kinda confused.

did find my first slug for these barrel. have a .312. barrel is .757 so it is one side thickness of .2225. remember with out scrolling back. need half of that as the safe depth is half the thickness of one side of the barrel so that is .111. I have an 91/30 that has a sight pin that go thru barrel, I was able the measure the depth of that I beleave ( no notes being pulled up) .110.

I got hung up on the dovetail. lol

[LAGS]

You have got the Math Correct.
The only thing I question is the Barrel Outside Diameter. and that is only because i do not have a 91/30 to measure and compare it with, and the closest thing I have right now is my M-44 which measures .720.
But you may be correct for your model.
I don't want to seem too picky, but I really want to make sure you are understanding what I am trying to explain.
I can not post pictures, but I can on regular Email if that helps you out or is needed.

[LAGS]

BTW
You might consider trying Slow rust Bluing on some of your small parts like the Magazine and such or small parts for your other rifles.
You can boil them on a Kitchen stove in a pan like a old Bread Loaf pan ( steel of corse )
Then you can decide later if you want to buy a Larger Bluing Tank to do the whole barrel and action, or have a tank made at a sheet metal shop near you. Do not make a tank out of Galvanized metal or Aluminum they wont work.
I can fit my Bluing tank on the kitchen stove actoss two burners, if it is too cold or raining outside to do it on my gas burner. ( Yep, you guessed it, I am not Married, I can get away with that kind of stuff in the kitchen , and hanging the parts to rust in the spare bathroom shower stall )
Contact Andy about the acid to use, and there are plenty of things on the net if you need instructions.

[corey012778]

next thing is on my list is finding the center of the scope base and marking that. all the practice. did not like any of the drill presses the local hard ware stores had so I ordered one, wait for that to come in.

[LAGS]

Lacking the machinests centering Tools. I suggest using a Combination square and some Dye Chem.
If you dont have DyeChem, then you can use a Black or Blue Felt tipped Marker to darken your dovetail flat for clearer marking.
To use the combination square, measure the width of the dovetail Flat.
Devide that measurement By 2.
Now lock your Combination square at thar measurement.
Place the square on the side of the Dovetail, and Mark a line in several spots with a scribe or razor knife along the Flat.
NOW
Put the square on the other side of the dovetail, and make a centerline, without changing the Combination square adjustment.
The Lines may not come out exactly the same, but that is OK.
The space Between the lines will be the exact center of the dovetail flat.
The ink makes your marks more visable when you scribe the lines.
Or you can use the square to mark your sight base for centerline, drill It, then mount it on the barrel and mark the holes on the dovetail flat thru the holes in the scope base.
I drill the base, then drill one hole into the barrel.
Then I mount the base with that screw to hold it in place, Mark and drill the second hole.
Doing one hole first also lets you make any right to left adjustments you need to make Before you drill the second hole.

[NoAngel]

One thing to remember when drilling and tapping ANY hole, anything over one and a half times the diameter of the thread is a waste of time. Threads deeper than this give zero advantage.
A half inch bolt threaded in 3/4" deep is at its maximum strength.

[LAGS]

You are correct for Pull out.
But if needed, and metal Permitting, the extra depth can add Lateral stability, even though the sheer strength remains the same.
Lateral stability is Not needed for mounting Scope Bases.

[corey012778]

problem is, is with my mount, I have a set hole but it is going to be 10x or more bigger then I am planning on using so setting center on it will be hard. the other. it is still new, crisp black coating dont know if it is a paint or a powder coat. so I would need a color other then blue or black. white grease pencil or a silver marker would work well. worst case, I could just strip the finish and powder coat i after I drill it.

the dovetail of the gun I am going to clean the old silver solder and dirt and grim off before I do some drilling.


the blue on the magazine is in great shape. I don't see even a scratch on it. the barrel look horrible. going to have to think of something other then the blue i bought already (nu-blue off fleebay). reblued the trigger guard on a inline muzzleloader. coming out looking pretty good. I strayed a little from there directions. first time I seen someone write use paper towel to apply anything. I used my favorite thing to apply some type of solution with, a cotton makeup pad. took me an hour to apply the first treatment took an hour second and third was an hour total. half hour to hour between. it is a instant blue. seeing if it will darken anymore if I let it set overnight and then do the last two steps.

[LAGS]

When i said use a Black or Blue Marker to marl your holes, I neant.
The Top of the dovetail on the Barrel.
You are going to clean off the silver solder off the flat surface right.
Then you color The top of the dovetail base with Ink, so when you scribe your lines, you see Silver lines from scribing in the black or blue inked surface.
Now if the hole in the Mount is way larger diameter than say a 6/48 screw , you can always make a Sleeve or Bushing that fits into the hole in the scope base, and that has a hole thru it that the 6/48 can pass thru.
i use Brass tubing from local Hobby shops , Model Shops like for Trains , Planes or R/C cars.
Find the size that fits in the scope base, and if the inner diameter is still too large, then insert the next smaller size tubing into the first tubing.
Then if that hole is Too small to fit a 6/48 screw thru, then you just drill out the hole.

A Tip; If you have to use a Tube in a tube to make the right size tube, then solder the tubes together when you slip them together. Then they wont come apart, and are esentually one thbe or bushing.
A Bushing is better than using too large of screw just to fit the hole.
And the screw is holding Down, the tubing only centers the scope base to the hole.
To mark the hole, wither With or without the bushing, Take a peice of round rod that fits thru the hole in the scope base. If you dont have one, Make one with your Poor Mans Lathe and a file.
Then put a Slight point on the rod using your Poor mans lathe.
Now, with the flat Inked, you install the scope base on the dovetail, then insert the pointed rod down thru the hole in the base, and tap it a few times Lightly straight down into the hole.
When you remove the scope base, you will see a shiny mark from the point of the rod in the inked surface.
That is the Center of the hole, and will be centered on that hole no matter if you use a 6/48 or a 10 screw.
Now they make Punches called Transfer Punches just for this type of work.
But I cant see you buying a whole set of punches just to do one scope mount.
I have transfer punches, but most of the time I have to make one like I described, because of Odd Hole sizes or holes being Metric or something.

[LAGS]

When i said use a Black or Blue Marker to mark your holes, I meant.
The Top of the dovetail on the Barrel.
You are going to clean off the silver solder off the flat surface right.
Then you color The top of the dovetail base with Ink, so when you scribe your lines, you see Silver lines from scribing in the black or blue inked surface.
Now if the hole in the Mount is way larger diameter than say a 6/48 screw , you can always make a Sleeve or Bushing that fits into the hole in the scope base, and that has a hole thru it that the 6/48 can pass thru.
I use Brass tubing from local Hobby shops , Model Shops like for Trains , Planes or R/C cars.
Find the size that fits in the scope base, and if the inner diameter is still too large, then insert the next smaller size tubing into the first tubing.
Then if that hole is Too small to fit a 6/48 screw thru, then you just drill out the holein the tubing.

A Tip; If you have to use a Tube in a tube to make the right size tube, then solder the tubes together when you slip them together. Then they wont come apart, and are esentually one tube or bushing.
A Bushing is better than using too large of screw just to fit the hole.
And the screw is holding Down, the tubing only centers the scope base to the hole.
To mark the hole, with or With or without the bushing, Take a peice of round rod that fits thru the hole in the scope base. If you dont have one, Make one with your Poor Mans Lathe and a file.
Then put a Slight point on the rod using your Poor mans lathe.
Now, with the flat Inked, you install the scope base on the dovetail, then insert the pointed rod down thru the hole in the base, and tap it a few times Lightly straight down into the hole.
When you remove the scope base, you will see a shiny mark from the point of the rod in the inked surface.
That is where you will Center Punch a dent and drill your holee into the top of the barrel.
That is the Center of the hole, and will be centered on that hole no matter if you use a 6/48 or a 10 screw.
Now they make Punches called Transfer Punches just for this type of work.
But I cant see you buying a whole set of punches just to do one scope mount.
I have transfer punches, but most of the time I have to make one like I described, because of Odd Hole sizes or holes being Metric or something.

You can clean the ink off the barrel with Alcohol or Acetone, and even Nail Polish remover you sneek away from your wife.

[corey012778]

I have alcohol (a staple in most of my cleaners from guns to bowling balls. sometimes the same cleaner hehe). and acetone. just reminded me, need to stop by the hobby shop and order my dermal workstation. owner is a friend of the family. one hole is drilled in the mount for a set screw so, I should be able to take a bushing/metal pipe, solder it in place. silver solder?
I would have to pick up a small enough rod, was going to ask if a nail would work, but I don't think I have one on hand long enough to work.

I did buy a punch set. not for these project. either misplaced, lost, or let people barrow some of the ones I had. I was needing a new set.

[LAGS]

To solder the sleeve or Tubing together, all you need is regular solder either plumbers or electrical solder.
Heck, I even Crazy glue one brass tube inside the other, and have even Glued the busings into the parts so they didnt come out and get lost.
Now , you are Getting A Dremmel work station ?
Now remember, A Dremmel Tool is "Bubba Gunsmith's" Best Friend, and also his worst friend.
Do not resort to using a dremmel for everything, Think the project thru, an look at all options, rather than grinding and cutting with a Dremmel to save time, or get things done faster. They are a Precision tool in the right hands, but also a great way to screw up a project in record time.
I think you can make a transfer punsh out of a 16 penny framing nail.
They are about 1/8" shank.
Just cut off the head of the nail with a saw or dremmel tool, then chuck it in your drill or drill press and spin it and run a file on it Flat to bring it to the Diameter you need, then while it is spinning make a shallow Point on the end.
It doesnt have to be tempered or anything for what you are doing, you will probably throw it away when you are done marking the scope base hole.

[corey012778]

I do a lot of polishing with a dremmel a lot for polishing, getting the work station for an extra hand.

[LAGS]

I have three Dremmel's or rotary tools, so I dont have to stop and change tips when I am doing something.
I even have a Air Die Grinder for that heavy stuff, like Rasping a stock to shape.

[LAGS]

I noticed something in the pictures of your scope base.
Basicly your base is a groved peice that Slides onto the dovetail on the barrel like a 22 scope rail, then is held by 4 Pinch screws on the sides.
Or do the lock screws hold on Side plates that do the tensioning, ( There are so many different models )
If the base is sliding front and back or coming loose, then you might have an easier option than drilling into the barrel and tapping it, if it has the set screws that pinch against the barrel.
You just have to make Detent notches in the area of the dovetail for the lock screws to lock into.
Just look for the marks left on the barrel where the lock screws marked the bluing or dovetail, and use a 1/8" Ball cutting point on your Dremmel to maks a depression for the set screw point.
No Tapping required.
Then you can also possibly put the sight retaining pins back in thru the barrel, If it is the model that has side plates to retain it and make notches in the scope base side plates for the pins to go thru.
Also , If the Base does now fit really tight to the dovetail on the rifle, You can put release agent on the barrel, then smear the inside of the scope base with JB weld after you clean it with Acetone or Alcohol and Glass Bed the scope base to fit your dovetail on the barrel.
It will come off after the epoxy hardens if you use release agent on the barrel.

Try the other Options First if you can.
I believe in the K.I.S.S. principal.
Keep It Simple Stupid.
Do not always jump to the most Radical option First.
Try the others, and you can still upgrade later.
But once you drill things, you are stuck with that.

[corey012778]

Then you can also possibly put the sight retaining pins back in thru the barrel, If it is the model that has side plates to retain it and make notches in the scope base side plates for the pins to go thru.

may take a closer look, may not be an bad idea, I don't think the sight pins are long enough. may have buy some or custom make them. doing a notch should not be hard. done that for a few other type project.

I most likely switch out the screws all around. I have found on these type scope set ups. that the screw are not the best. and the heads round out easy. nothing I done.

on mounting plate, I wanting to put long screws and tap the whole base out. they used almost the same length (just a hair longer) for it as they did ring screws. found I switched the ring screw and the plate screw.

may still work on drill and tapping barrels start with the metal stock I have and then with pipes. then hunt up or when I honed some skill and do a barrel change on the mauser I was give. and use the old barrel as a drilling practice for firearms.

[LAGS]

Try the pin thing first, and yes you can make the right diameter pins in your drill, with a file.
I too change out the screws on the " Less Expensive Mounts "
Be carefull, the threads may be Metric.
I have Two old Mauser barrels that I practiced cutting Dovetails or Stamping Calibers and such.
I also have two servicable Mauser barrels , One off a 98k and one off a Yugo Mauser, plus the Husquvarna sporter barrel in 8x57

[corey012778]

would be shocked if it was not metric.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

If the depth of hole is critical, and it looks likely to be here, it is a good idea to grind the end of a tap flat, right back to the complete crests. You can't start a hole with one in that condition, but it will deepen the usable thread available in one you have tapped as far as you can get with a bottoming tap.

I think the coarse thread in the American, British and metric systems are the strongest, when the hole is in good steel. Make the pitch finer, and the threads will strip first. Make it coarser, and the screw will break in two. The reasons to use a finer pitch, such as 6-48, are to give greater mechanical advantage and resistance to vibrating loose, and perhaps to stop people using a screw in inferior metal, which used to be commoner than they are today.

[corey012778]

yeah they where metric screws did not even look at any sae screws until I was done gathering.

[corey012778]

I cut the notches in the base for a retaining pin. a hand drill, started with a bit the size of the holes in the barrel. pin would not go thru moved up one size. I am just missed alined by a shade. can't find my round file at the moment. when I do I should be able to fix that in no time.

144469

144470

[LAGS]

I think you have it this time.
Give that a try, and then see if you still need to go to the trouble of drilling and Tapping the barrel.
BTW.
A Black Felt marler will touch up that shiny bare metal , there is no need at this time to refinish the whole scope base

[corey012778]

may end up making a pin. the sight pins are just long enough but I would like to have one a little longer. meet edge to edge of the base.

[LAGS]

I cant remember, but I think a 4/40 screw will fit thru the hole in your barrel.
If you can find one long enough, you could put a nut on the other side.

[corey012778]

Thought about that, have two places to look. Right across the street from each other. There on my way home so I can check,

[corey012778]

made the indentation for the set screw feels like I need to go a touch deeper. I used a cordless drill to do the work. lower power then a corded drill. better feel then on depth, for me, then a drill press.

144567

[LAGS]

You should have blackened the top of the Dovetail flat with a Black Marker first.
Your mark or dimple would show up way better.
Was that marked thru the hole in the scope mount ?

[corey012778]

Yes, cleaned it off and marked 3 times, the set screw hole on the mount is off center when the base is fully tighten.

[LAGS]

That can be normal for the base to be off center, because it has one fixed clamp and one moveable clamp , correct.
If it has two movable clamps, then it can be centered more easily, and you would mark the true center of the barrel dovetail, drill and tap that hole, and then center the two clamps to make the base more centered.
But no harm for this type of scope to set off to one side.

[corey012778]

One clamp.

[LAGS]

People dont realize that those clamp on mounts are not always Centerline of the barrel.
But if you were going for real precision shooting, then they would be buying a more expensive mount.
But they do work, and work good, even offset to one side.

[corey012778]

inside a 6in paper plate (distance depends on the gun) is all I will every ask for out most guns, anything smaller is on me.

went with the screw idea. bought too long of a screw. may get a shorter one or just cut the ones I have. be cheaper to just buy the shorter one. few cents vs a few dollars.

[LAGS]

You should be able to keep all your shots on a 6" paper plate at 300 with that rifle and handloaded ammo.
I think you would need a higher power scope to get much less at that distance.
But the rifle will probably be capable of it no problem off a rest.

[leadman]

I just used a set of Weaver scope mounts for the grooved 22 LR barrels on my Mosin Nagant. I don't shoot mil-surp ammo though.

[corey012778]

I have shot the last of the mil-surp I had. for some reason I can't find the factory ammo. guess I just have to load some cast up. lol

[LAGS]

What powder and boolits do you plan to use ?
My MN's like cast

[corey012778]

I have the lee c312-185-1r. have varget on hand. but no load data for it. so I am going to some homework and get the powders. need to get some rifle primers. only have pistol primers right now.


sorry would of replied sooner, hit the busy part of the week for me. bowl two leagues, then my wife makes plans for all weekend.

[LAGS]

I dont think Varget is a good choice for cast Boolits.
I know some people might use it, but there are better choices.
You have to load powders like that too low, to kep the pressure down for the cast boolits.
You load Pistols ?
What pistol powders do you have ? Maybe Unique ?

[corey012778]

have not been able to find unique local.

do have (pistol powders have been hard to find local)
win 231
bullseye
powerpistol
cfe pistol (find what you can get when you can get school of thought.)

[LAGS]

I do not have any loads for the 7.62x54R with those powders, but I know they use the Bullseye in other CB rifle loads.
But they are not that high of velocity.
Maybe someone else has a load they have tried in this caliber.
I mostly use Reloader 7 , 5744 , Imr4198 and 2400 is my universal CB rifle powder, but I cant find any.

[LAGS]

My Lee Second Edition says that for the 180 grain Jacketed bullet the starting load is 43.0 at 2400 FPS.
The manual does not have Powder reduction factoring numbers for this caliber or I could tell you what load you would have to reduce it by to get to a lower pressure compatable for cast bullets.
But I would say that if you reduce the load below 40.0 gr, you would likely have to use a Dacron Filler because of the low case fill ratio, being less than 60%.
Maybe one of the others can help you better than I can or have tried a load with this powder.
They use 4895 and 4064 on this caliber with Cast bullets, but I dont know any tested loads, or if they use fillers.

[corey012778]

gotta pull out my lyman cast loading manual. maybe I can get some ideas from it. maybe try that new cfe at 30 to 35 grs with Dacron or cow.

[LAGS]

I prefer Dacron or Pillow Stuffing.
COW can sometimes cause problems from Humidity in Bottleneck cases forming a plug if it is Humid when you load.
Straight cases dont pose that issue as the Plug just blows out behind the bullet.
Be safe and fire the first loads off of a Cradle or as we call it, Absent of the Body.

[corey012778]

I have a lock down rest I use for cleaning. it is a shooting rest I did not like. I have twine so I can remote shot it to be alittle safer. think a ratchet strap to hold the rest and a bungee to help hold the rifle.

[LAGS]

I think that 30 Gr of Varget with a Dacron Filler is a Safer Choice than 30 gr of CFE.
CFE is for Smaller Cases with Lighter Bullets.
At least you know that Varget is used in that Capacity case WITH that weight of Bullet.
You are trying to Reduce the load.
I see no where where CFE is used in a similar Capacity Case with that heavy of a Bullet say like in a .303 or 30-40 Krag

[LAGS]

I just found Varget listed in the Lyman 4th edition for the 30-40 Krag
173 Cast 27.5 to 34.0
The 200 gr lists 25.0 to 35.0
You can use loads similar to the 200 gr bullet for the 180 gr, but Start LOW, and for the first loads, try a .5gr, fluff of filler.
Does anyone else concur with my thinking ?

[corey012778]

use to load 30-06 with varget. I know it was an 150gr j word. can't remember the charge. no longer have that gun.

[LAGS]

I think I can at least get you started with the loads that I found for the Krag.
It is a Similar case design and capacity, in a rifle in the same Chamber pressure range.
But keep your eyes open for a more suitable powder for cast boolits that have published data.
I swear by the Reloader 7 , itworks in all my rifle calibers with cast bullets

[corey012778]

ok here is what I found on hodgdon site for some data on varget and 7.62x54r

jwords

180gr start 43.0grs max 46.5grs
200gr start 41.0grs max 44.0grs

pull out all my manuals and cross reference some things.

[LAGS]

A 25.0 load is 58% of the same weight bullet using the 43.0 jacketed load.
That is why I recomend a filler for that much of a reduced charge to reduce the chance of a Flash over.
And a 30 gr load is 69% of the charge for a 180 gr bullet using 43 gr jacketed load
That is above the limit where you might experience flash over, but I would still use a filler to keep the powder near the primer better.
But the max load for the 30-40 is 35 gr, that is 81% of the 43gr load for the jacketed bullet
These loads are all experimental, and should be tested carefully and the cases and primers watched for pressure indications.
But then these may not be the Top loads for your rifle either.
There are several factors that even though the cases are similar, could effect performance.
And too, the pressures are different using Jacketed Vs Cast Bullets using the same load.

[LAGS]

What did the Hodgdon site say the loads for the 30-40 Krag were using Varget and the same Jacketed bullet weights for comparrison.

[corey012778]

no data for a Varget for the 30-40 krag.

[LAGS]

My Lyman 48 has Both calibers listed with the 180 grain Jacketed bullet and Varget.
This will give you a good comparrison.
7.62x54 R
180 gr starting load with Varget is 42.0 at 2261 FPS
the max load is 46.5 at 2542 FPS
No chamber pressures are listed.

Now the 30-40 Krag
The 180 gr Jacketed bullet with Varget starts off at 36.0 with 2077 FPS at a pressure of 28,900 CUP
The Max load is 40.0 going 2341 FPS at 38,900 CUP

The book lists loads for the Krag with a Cast bullet from 190 to 210 gr Start at 25.0 gr Varget at 1514 FPS on the 190 and1515 for the 210 gr.
No pressure is listed for the cast bullets.
But you can load a slightly lighter bullet like even down to 180 with the 190 and 210 bullet loads
Max loads are 35.0 for both bullets, but the 190 is going 2065 FPS and the 210 going 2046 FPS

[LAGS]

You need to start a Thread in one of the Reloading sections where more reloaders might be able to see it.
A lot of reloaders dont scroll thru the Gunsmithing section for reloading or would see your thread and be able to give their input.
I bet there are others that Have tried Varget in the 7.62x54 already.

[corey012778]

yeah we got a little off topic after I finished up the base. (maybe finished the base)

[LAGS]

It is your thread, you can go where you want to.
It isn't like someone else Jacked your thread.
But you will get more viewers on a reloading Question Thread.

[corey012778]

did a little research, may have found something. an old thread with some varget data. but think I would post and research. maybe something will come up.

[LAGS]

I think you can see that the Krag loading data should give you a starting point.
I used the data like I showed you for a starting load for my MN's using a 155 gr cast boolit when I could not find any data for that weight boolit and any powders other than Unique and 2400.
I just used the starting data for the Krag and the 160 gr Cast boolit and have worked up loads fore IMR 4227, RL-7 and IMR 4198 so far.

[corey012778]

I am going to see what I can find. did find the factory ammo I had. 3 boxes of ppu 185 (?) spbt. it was setting right in a ammo box in the open in my reloading room.