45-70 BFR 7.5" accuracy loads

[mcal762]

Trying to work a load for my 45-70 BFR 7.5" barrel.
I was told that SR-4759 is the powder of choice but its all gone.. I was thinking Blue Dot or RL#7 would be worth a try.

I've shot 4198, 2400 so far and accuracy was poor.

Shot 20.gr blue dot with 300 cast and had 1/2 group at 25yds 1265 fps.. looking for Vel of 1450 fps with 300 gr...

looking at a 405 gr load with BD at 1250 fps velocity.. can you go to 25.0gr Blue dot with 405 gr and safely?


Goal is a 405gr cast or JSP bullet around 1250 FPS with 1.5 group at 50 yds...

Anyone have any ideas..
thanks,
Mcal

[waco]

I would wait for 44Man to chime in.....

[44man]

Hard to say since 4759 was the best. I got stocked heavy with the powder. Try Varget.
The 300 gr needs 1632 fps plus. The gun does not like slow.
i never used BD, don't have any. 4198 sucked. but it worked with the 300 gr jacketed. It worked different between jacketed and cast.

[mcal762]

ok I'll look at bumping of the velocity on some of these rounds. I tried some Sierra 300 gr JHP with 4198 but no luck either. also Remington 300 JHP with 30.0 gr 2400 with no luck.. Just picked up a can of RL7 so might try a load with that.. saw a post with 35.5 gr with a 405 gr as the sweet spot on that powder just need to load some and give it a try....

[Cornbread]

Right now I am using 3031 with a 350grn slug in mine. Accuracy seems pretty good but I haven't had a chance to really put it through its paces yet to say for sure if I can get 1" at 50 yards with it. Are you shooting open sights or scoped? For me 3031 doesn't seem to all burn which is OK but seems wasteful so I was thinking about trying some 4227 with COW filler or SR-4759.

[mcal762]

I'm have a Leupold 2x EER scope on it.. shooting off a solid rest, only the lower frame is touching the rest. I tried IMR 4895 and 4198 with unburned power issue also. the 2400 and blue dot did not have that problem.. So far the blue dot produced the best group at 25 yds 1/2 group but that is really close..

I hope to get a solid 1" group at 50 yds and call it good with either a 405 gr at 1250 fps or a 300 gr at 1450 fps or faster...

[Ramjet-SS]

I have great luck with AA5744 in my rifles. it may be a good powder for the BFR shorter barreled gun. It is used for many larger capacity handgun calibers and heavier bullets.

I do not think you need any fillers at all. But did you check the bullets in the throats to make sure you are sized correctly?

BFR at least the ones I have owned have been tack drivers I am working with the 30-30 now and it is really something great if the shooter is up to the task. I have heard good reports about the 45-70 as well.

[Cornbread]

I'd only be using filler if I try 4227. I've used it before in 45-70 rifles and it has a ton of air space and it affected accuracy a ton without the filler. I don't have a scope on mine. I can post results of various things I try as I try them back to this thread until I can consistently get 1" or smaller groups at 50 yards with it. Should be fun getting it dialed in.

[mcal762]

I've used the Dacron filler in the 2400 and blue dot loads because of the large air space, not sure if it really makes much difference plus it only takes a couple seconds to add it. I guess its worth the effort. there a tons of post on to use filler and not to use filler.. hard to say...

I hope to have some time to tinker with some loads for the BFR this weekend.. I'm really interested in working up the blue dot loads with the 405 gr load using a pistol primer to light it off...

Kinda have to change your mindset on these 45-70 loads because its not for a "Rifle" its for a revolver... so the faster burning powder is a must to make it work right.... I saw a big change in the groups when I used the blue dot... still looking for the sweet spot on the 2400... 30 gr of 2400 and a 300 gr bullet is pretty good load but accuracy is not where it needs to be....

[44man]

The 7-1/2" is going to be harder then my 10", the way it is. 3031 did not all burn but it was decent for accuracy. 4198 shot jacketed good but gave me pressure and velocity excursions with cast so I dropped it. 5744 was not that good.
I have an Ultra Dot on all my guns for deer.
4759 is still best and I don't know what you fellas do for it.
I knew what I was getting into so it took me a month of research before I touched the gun off. Large cases just puts a crimp in short guns. 2400 and Unique were a waste of time.
Even when I had my 10" 30-30 TC, 4759 was IT and I could shoot pennies at 100 with a scope.
Darn, to find revolver loads is not to be found. I was on my own.
Varget is a crazy powder, it works in the 7BR and 7R pistols. As slow as it is, it burns great and clean.
I just do not know what to do for short barrels and the loss of a great powder. Even 10" was a great challenge.
4227's are close to 4759 but they will not come close to the accuracy.
Maybe if enough called Hodgdon, they will reconsider.

[wdr2]

The Gun Shop in Idaho Falls had eight 1lb cans of 4759 on the shelf yesterday.

[44man]

The Gun Shop in Idaho Falls had eight 1lb cans of 4759 on the shelf yesterday.
darn, did you grab any?

[mcal762]

I've check everywhere local in the tidewater VA area with no luck on the 4759.... its been almost 2 1/2 years since I even seen powder on the shelves.... so it was nice just to see a few cans of powder in the store...

[44man]

It comes down to the number of gun owners and the fear of the Gov't. Production can't keep up.
Now I see Hillary is going after guns so I hope every gun owner shows her what end to stick her head in.

[mcal762]

Today's range report:

405 gr Cast over 22gr Blue Dot ( no Dacron )
cci 300 1278 fps ***** 1"@25 yds.



300gr Hornady jhp 22.0 gr blue dot ( no Dacron) cci 300*** 1/4" group @25 yds
1164 fps

not sure why the lighter bullet had the lower velocity, the cast 300 gr with 20gr of blue dot was at 1265fps.

[44man]

My best boolit is 317 gr and runs at 1632 fps. I shoot about a dozen different boolits but never chronographed many at all but the Hornady just might have more friction. It is a great bullet, I used it on a buck once since my hard cast were just poking holes and I had no time to make soft noses. The deer was on the run at about 50-55 yards in the brush. I found an opening ahead of him and the bullet did a job on him. Amazing how fast the red dot can be used.
The monster BFR is almost a rifle but I found an Uncle Mikes shoulder holster, tender super 14 for a scope. I called them and they told me they do not make a holster for BFRs but it fits perfect.
I also put a sling stud on the butts of all my revolvers and with a 6' utility sling, the grip is at my hand when stalking. Keeps me from dropping a gun if I snooze on stand.
It sounds like you are getting there so now see what it does at 50.
I need more powders but had new leaf Guard gutters put up since cleaning them 10X a year was just enough of that junk, then new tires for my 4 Runner, One went dead flat from dry rot, every two days. I sort of broke the bank. I still need a timing belt change.
Now would you believe Carol is griping about leaves washing onto the deck so she has to sweep more? We old goats just can't win!
I sure wish I could help work loads.

[Ramjet-SS]

Pistol Packaging makes some real nice Bandito holsters for big revolvers and they are well made and comfortable. I have really good success and frankly guns like different powder it is also available so if all else fails try it if you buy only a 1 lb not such ph waste if it does not workout.

http://www.pistolpackaging.com/Bandito_Shoulder_Belt_p/bsb.htm

[44man]

Darn those are nice and a very decent price too.

[Ramjet-SS]

I like them buy belt and you can just but the holsters for the different guns.

[44man]

Just super. Much appreciated.

[mcal762]

Next loads are Hornady 300 gr JHP with 25.0 gr blue dot w/Dacron and a CCI pistol primer. I'm hoping to get a higher velocity out of this load but this is the highest charge of blue dot that I will use.. the 22.0 gr showed no pressure signs at all... just kinda nervous about going too high on a unpublished load.

Loaded 35.5 gr of RL7 405 gr cast and a CCI pistol primer and they shot good until the last shot ended up being a squib.. Next set will be with a rifle primer to ensure that they all fire off correctly... the three that I did fire grouped 1/2 at 25yds....

so this might be a promising load also.. raining today so might not get to do any testing...

Cheers........

[Ramjet-SS]

45-70 should all be primed with large rifle primers. Large pistol and large rifle primers have different dimensions. The 45-70 is designed around the larger rifle primer.

[44MAG#1]

I use pistol primers with 2400, Unique, PowerPistol and Universal with poly fill.
with no poly fill I use Rifle Primers.

[Ramjet-SS]

The cup height is different so if you use Large pistol that is shorter you may not get good ignition because the primer contact is reduced. The 45-70 primer pocket is designed around the Large Rifle Primer but use what you want its your gun. There is plenty of good information along the lines of cup thickness and pressure rating as well as power of the different primers.

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/primer.cfm

[44MAG#1]

I make sure both types of primers are seated to the bottom of the primer pockets. Have never has a minutes trouble with them.
They do just fine.
Just like the reloading company's say not to heavily taper crimp 45 Autos etc..
Them one buys the ammo from Speer, Hornady, Win and Federal have them crimped so hard the cases leave indentations all around the bullet jacket. Even in high dollar self defense ammo.
Go figure. I think sometime one can read too much.

[mcal762]

Tested the RL7 35.5 gr 405 gr cast and cci 250 good solid load. Shot about 2 1/4 @ 50 yds.

gonna load 5 more and do another test and chrony them also.

[Cornbread]

I put a heavier crimp on my 3031 loads and I am getting what seems to be complete burn now. You might want to give 3031 a try if you have any.

[44MAG#1]

That is a piddling load. That is just 2 gr over starting load for a trapdoor according to Lyman 49th.
I would be looking at 46 gr RL7 at 23600 CUP according to Lyman 49 th.

[mcal762]

I'll load a round for you with 46 gr of RL 7 and a 405 gr and let you shoot it out of this hand cannon.
Have you see the guy on here that fractured his wrist with this pistol?

[Ramjet-SS]

right......... it will reset some bone and tissue.

As far as reading too much 44#1 well math is math and deminsion are what they are for a reason. Ignoring those things can get a person hurt with a hang fire or even a blown gun. do what you want with your gun but when you post information that could be potentially dangerous I for one am going to put the facts on the table so a person can make an educated choice.

[Ramjet-SS]

By the way that poultry trapdoor load just about wiped the earth of the great Americam Bison so as poultry as you think it is history says otherwise.

[44MAG#1]

Ramjet-SS,

Do as you wish. I am merely stating what I do. Nothing more nothing less. A large pistol mag primer or standard is only different in size in height. Strength I'd something else. What does it take to fire fast powders reliably? With fast burning powder held to the back with a poly fill wad a pistol primer is fine. With normal charges of slower powder I use rifle primers.
Do as you wish. But unless you know from experience that something works or not try to be open minded instead of close minded.
Do you know that a pistol primer is unsafe under any and all conditions? If you do cite some instances so we who use them will know.

[44man]

I use only fed 155's in my BFR 45-70. Standard hammer springs run about 23#. If you have a 450 marlin cylinder made they swap the spring to 28# for the LR primer.
I do change all my revolver hammer springs to Wolfe 26# variables anyway because factory springs take a set and weaken. You will lose all accuracy if they weaken.
The .475 case is made from 45-70 brass with LR pockets but you will be warned by powder makers to never use them, ONLY LP mags.
Using the LR primer with the weaker springs can cause more problems.
Using too little powder can cause the squib, I even did it with 4759 when I cut the charge 1/2 gr for a heavier boolit, had to increase the charge back. Dacron helps.
Short barrels with large cases are one of the hardest things to work with. Some powders will not get up to pressure, boolit is gone too fast. Mine is 10" and with 3031, I would shoot, tip the gun and watch powder fall out of the barrel. In a rifle 3031 comes to life.

[44man]

I tested the .454 using cut down .460 brass and took the Federal 155 to over 55,000 PSI without getting a flat one.

[mcal762]

The Hornady 300 gr 25.0 gr blue dot cci300 primer w/Dacron was 1375fps

405gr cast RL7 35.5gr cci 250 primer was 1210fps

will test loads at 50yd tgt for accuracy now ...

[Ramjet-SS]

Ramjet-SS,

Do as you wish. I am merely stating what I do. Nothing more nothing less. A large pistol mag primer or standard is only different in size in height. Strength I'd something else. What does it take to fire fast powders reliably? With fast burning powder held to the back with a poly fill wad a pistol primer is fine. With normal charges of slower powder I use rifle primers.
Do as you wish. But unless you know from experience that something works or not try to be open minded instead of close minded.
Do you know that a pistol primer is unsafe under any and all conditions? If you do cite some instances so we who use them will know.

I will end with this:
If all primers are created equal why even make different ones why not just ONE primer for everything?

[44MAG#1]

"I will end with this:
If all primers are created equal why even make different ones why not just ONE primer for everything?"

No one said they were all the same. Stop reading into things that isn't said.
I said with fast powders LP primers work fine with a filler to hold the powder in place.
Have you used enough pistol primers in the 45/70 to say they won't work?
If you have give me the instances and I will use all rifle primers from now on. Not just what a book says.

[44man]

I will end with this:
If all primers are created equal why even make different ones why not just ONE primer for everything?
They are NOT equal and each has a purpose. Some have too much pressure with no more fire.
Take a .44 mag and every single load calls for a mag primer. WHY? I shoot 296 with a standard and have since 1979 or 80 since I found they were too much pressure.
Shooting a .45 ACP revolver with sad results had me stare at the round at my bench. I told my friend "too much primer." I made bushings for SP primers and shot groups you would not believe so he bought SP brass.
You need to understand primers and where the line is to change, done by testing, not reading.
They are so much more important and even the impact to a primer must be right.
However I have to disagree with 44Mag#1, LR IS different, not just size. Compounds change even if the amount is the same but the LR is higher and can hold more of each. A mag LP is NOT just cup thickness, it has more pressure. That little bugger can blow a boolit out before powder is ignited. I would not see the results I do if all were the same.
Some say a load of 296 needs a mag in cold weather so I tested at -20° and still found the mag shot larger groups from the .44.144773 Standard left and mag right. Both are worse then in the summer but notice there is still a difference.

[44MAG#1]

44man,

if if you will read my #31 post I Said the LP and rifle is only different in height. THAT is dealing with size. I said strength is something else. I misspelled the word "is". "Strength I'd something else". Is what I said. So what do you disagree with??? I did not say they were the same in strength.
Cut me some slack.

[44man]

44man,

if if you will read my #31 post I Said the LP and rifle is only different in height. THAT is dealing with size. I said strength is something else. I misspelled the word "is". "Strength I'd something else". Is what I said. So what do you disagree with??? I did not say they were the same in strength.
Cut me some slack.
You have all the slack I can give, just reading it wrong. It was just ONE word because I know you understand. It did surprise me so I had to bring it up.
Do you know how many do not understand either of us? Most everything we post is read between the lines to find something not agreed with because the "BOOK" says otherwise.
I just opened the book for the .44 mag and it says LP mag for ALL, even HP38 or Bullseye. I wish guys would get their nose out of the book.
Forgive me, my keyboard has letters worn off so I have to correct all the time. One finger typing.

[44MAG#1]

I understand 44man.

[44man]

You are a good man.

[44MAG#1]

Thanks 44man you are too. We just don't agree all the time. But then again who does? Even brothers don't agree all time.
I don't even agree with my wife that much. HaHa.

[44man]

Tell me about the wife! Carol plants a garden and weeds take over. She complains and then the mulberry tree she wanted shades half the garden so she wants a lot cut down. Then she lets red buds grow in the garden too. See where it goes?

[mcal762]

This weeks test loads will be:
35.5 grn of RL7 cci 250 and 405 gr cast

40.0 gr RL7 cci 250 and 405 gr cast

test range will be at 50 yds

hope one of these will prove accurate enough to call good.. Looking for 1" at 50 yds

anyone know of any accurate RL7 loads??!

thanks

[44man]

Sadly I don't. The RL-7 I had was some left over for rounds I loaded for a friend for a rifle.
I also never wrote down any loads that did not work with any powder. Been that way forever. I have a little book and each boolit has one load only. Even in my rifle days I had one load.
As I sold guns, I gave the page to the buyer so have nothing to go back to.

[Ramjet-SS]

Yes you two are legends in you're own minds....:bigsmyl2:

[mcal762]

Test load for today:


40.0 gr RL7 cci 250 and 405 gr cast
1250 fps 1.5" group (moderate recoil)

Good load will take anything on North America ! Hits hard!

300 gr Hornady jhp 25.0 gr blue dot w Dacron cci 300 1" @ 50 yds
1350 fps. ( 2 bullets touching in group)

Excellent load for deer!


test range 50 yds

cheers.....

[Ramjet-SS]

Both sound like winners and even the 300 gr JHP should do the job well on deer. But the 405 wins the penetration contest. How is the muzzle flash with that RL7 load? I also would say less damaged meat with the 405 eat right up to the bullet hole.

[mcal762]

There was little to no muzzle flash with the RL7.
The blue dot has a pretty large cylinder gap flash when fired.

amazing the difference between pistol powder and rifle powder as how different the pressure rises and burn rate.

[44MAG#1]

"Yes you two are legends in you're own minds....:bigsmyl2:"

Since I am not a human encyclopedia how do you explain 45/70 brass that uses small rifle primers?

[44man]

Seems both loads are working better. The 300 Hornady does wonderful on deer without blow up.
I have no idea what I get with them, never checked speed with 32.5 gr of 4759 with a tuft of Dacron.
Sure worked perfect on a big buck.
The 405 gr is in the right velocity range but I don't know if the Hornady is fast enough to start some expansion. I would most likely use the 405 gr.
Glad to see you are getting accuracy. Now make meat!

[mcal762]

yeah it seems like the pistol likes the RL7 and Blue Dot. I want to test some 405gr JSP and see how the shoot, just got a box of Badman boolits in 405gr cast to see how they shoot....

Do you wear ear plugs when you hunt with this pistol??? never really hunted with a pistol but I imagine that the blast would make your ears rings...

Thanks

[44man]

I have never needed plugs when hunting, I don't hear the guns that much unless on the range where one shot will make me cry.
I don't know why that is. I would if I had ports.
I hear the deer and hate to wear plugs. I tried the electronic muffs and could not tell the direction of deer. Things turn you into a swivel neck.
I can tell a squirrel from a deer.
I have some high Freq loss from the Army and working around aircraft for 42 years but it has not changed. I will never take one shot with a .357 or .44 on the range without muffs but even the .475 and JRH does not bother me when hunting. I rolled a neighbor and his girlfriend out of bed one morning with the .475! :bigsmyl2:

[mcal762]

I know what you mean never feel the recoil either when hunting... But sure can feel it sighting in a new scope....

you can defiently tell a difference between a cast boolit and a jacketed boolit in these pistols when you shoot them. It has a different crack sound when it fires...

[mcal762]

Gonna give the 40.0gr RL7 w Hornady 300 gr jhp and cci 250 a try and see how that groups...

[telebasher]

I know what you mean never feel the recoil either when hunting... But sure can feel it sighting in a new scope....

you can defiently tell a difference between a cast boolit and a jacketed boolit in these pistols when you shoot them. It has a different crack sound when it fires...

The one thing that silhouette shooting really taught me was to keep my head down and follow thru with the shot. It pays off big time when hunting as you can follow the bullet to and thru the target animal.

[Ramjet-SS]

Yea you never hear it but your ears do ! But do as you please 44 man. Damage will occur.

I used to be like 44 man and after loosing a good deal of hearing being macho has convinced me to give up that mind set. I use electronic ear muffs in the stand. I do not when stalking but then when stalking I guess like 44 man.......:bigsmyl2:

If you can wear them your ears will thank you so will the grandkids when you can actually hear what they are saying to you.

What?

[44man]

I worked for an airline and they made us test hearing all the time. Mine never changed. I suppose the army did my high freq damage. When shooting the old bazooka they gave us cotton to stuff in but even 100 yards from the darn thing hurt.

[mcal762]

49.0gr RL7 w Hornady 300 gr jhp and cci 250 produced 4" groups @50 yds 1500fps... Poor accuracy in my book so scrap that load and on to the next....

[mcal762]

I could not imagine firing off that round with out ear plugs in!!! I think it would make your ears ring for a few days.....

I did test IMR 4198 31 gr cci 250 and a Badman 405 gr cast boolit and a 3 shot group of 3/4" @ 50 yds only 1060fps but should kill any deer that it hits....

[monge]

I had good accuracy with4227 but went away in cold temps looking for a substitute myself

[mcal762]

Yeah so far I've only been able to test in the heat of summer... 2400 was strong for the amount used but accuracy was poor.... So far blue dot, RL7 and 4198 has been far performers ... There is no 4759 anymore so we has to come up with a new solution for our rifle pistol....

i hear of this amazing accuracy in the BFR but I'm still to see it for myself... Asking 1" at 50 yds isn't looking for a golden eggs in the world of accurate pistols...

[MT Chambers]

By the way that poultry trapdoor load just about wiped the earth of the great Americam Bison so as poultry as you think it is history says otherwise.
They use Trapdoors for shooting poultry, like chickens?

[mcal762]

I think that poultry trapdoor load almost kill off the American buffalo..

[44MAG#1]

The word is P A L T R Y.

[44man]

Well, you are finding out about case size versus barrel length. Good teacher to try and solve it.
Why I cringe with a 2" .454 or a 4" .500. Not much more then 10 yard guns with a huge blast.
Guys buy great guns and get them whacked off first thing. Kool factor and balance with no regard whether they can shoot. The big excuse all around is sight radius. Not so, you need a caliber that will shoot with a short barrel and some do.
I don't know what to do about powders. We are hurting with powder losses. There are no direct substitutes for any powder. Burn rate charts are dart boards.

[Ramjet-SS]

See you do not need those top end loads especially for poultry , just as I said, but if your ego needs them by all means load away.

[44MAG#1]

Who Was talking about top end loads? Can you give a "for instance"?

[mcal762]

Loaded 5 rounds of 38.0 gr 4198 and a 300 gr Hornady JHP as my test load...

the 405 gr with 31.0 gr of 4198 has proven to be the most accurate with .5" " 50 yds..
1060 fps...

[Ramjet-SS]

You know what bullet is a dandy deer hunting bullet is the Lyman 457122 hollow point mould. It has worked outstanding for me from my Encore. The load was a 30.0 grains of XMP-5744 Large a Rifle primer.

[mcal762]

What is the weight of that bullet and the velocity?

[Ramjet-SS]

322 grains from my rifle it runs 1405 FPS but I have taken deer with that bullet running 1200 FPS loaded over a load of Unique. It is the Gould design much history behind that bullet an design. Now at lower velocities I alloy accordingly.

[mcal762]

XMP-5744 has the same burn rate as SR-4759 have you ever compare the two.. The 4759 is no longer made so I wonder if the 5744 would be a equal substitute....

[44man]

XMP-5744 has the same burn rate as SR-4759 have you ever compare the two.. The 4759 is no longer made so I wonder if the 5744 would be a equal substitute....
I did try it and it does not compare. I don't know what I will do with the rest of it.

[Ramjet-SS]

I have both powders and have compared them of course the 4759 fills the case better (bulkier) however the velocities and accuracy was very close. so my findings are different than 44man.

XMR 5744 falls right in line with 4227 and is slightly slower than 4759.

[mcal762]

Loaded 5 rounds of 38.0 gr 4198 and a 300 gr Hornady JHP as my test load...

the 405 gr with 31.0 gr of 4198 has proven to be the most accurate with .5" " 50 yds..
1060 fps...


Tested these loads today
300 gr 4198 38.0 gr load shot 1/2" at 50 yds 1340fps
405 gr 4198 31.0 gr load shot average 8 shots of 3/4" at 50yds 1060 fps
405 gr RL7 35.5 gr load shot average 8 shots 1 1/2" at 50 yds 1210 fps

all of these loads shot good enough to hunt with... I think the 405gr cast would be the bone crusher....

[Ramjet-SS]

Man the gun seems to love those 405s at all velocities. Some fun work you have done the favorite part of any new gun is load development and of course all the shooting that goes along with it.

[44man]

The BFR will handle a wide range of boolits, here are some I shot, from 300 to 485 gr.
One of the boolits gave me 3/16" at 50.145551
The large group was 10 shots with my normal 317 gr.
Sight in target on the right was 5 in 5/8" then 5 in 5/16".
MR hit it as good as can get with the 1 in 14" twist. Allows for the reduced velocities.
My best group ever was 2-1/2" at 500 yards.
I just never shot a 45-70 rifle that can touch it.
I also shot these groups with the Ultra Dot. I don't know what it would do with a good scope.
Too bad all was with 4759, burns so clean brass does not need cleaned. 5744 did not do this and it is dirty.
The only difference to what you get is I have over 20# of 4759! :bigsmyl2:
However mcal is doing very good with what he has. He has the gun under control. Very hard to get what he is getting with powder choices.
I read the warnings about the powder going away and called Midsouth, they took a back order and it was a few months but 16# showed up. A friend had given me a big can of it, still the old metal 5# IMR can.
It was not sold by the pound long ago, cans were 8oz. Too bulky for 1# cans.

[Ramjet-SS]

Yup BFR are good guns my 10" 30-30 is tack driver with everything I feed it.

I have great performance with 5744 in th 458 SOCOM as well.

[44man]

Wish I could buy more. The 30-30 would thrive with 4759 so how can we get it back?

[mcal762]

I think at this point the manufactures are working at max capacity and are still having a tough time keeping up with the demand. the companies have looked at the least used products and discontinued them and moved on to their top sellers for max production...

it seems like IMR 4198 and RL 7 have been good powders for this pistol.. actually Blue Dot has been the most efficient powder so far producing the highest velocity with the least amount of powder and producing good accuracy... I still have a lot of testing to do with BD and might go back and do some more testing with 2400 with pistol primers and Dacron to see if there is a combo that works well.

[Ramjet-SS]

Do not forget Unique or Universal for low to medium velocity loads with filler.

[mcal762]

the last time that I was at the store I didn't see those powders in stock...

can you use a Dacron filler with any type of powder.. the 4198 load that I use there is a lot of air space in the case would it be ok to put some filler in there?

thanks..

[44man]

the last time that I was at the store I didn't see those powders in stock...

can you use a Dacron filler with any type of powder.. the 4198 load that I use there is a lot of air space in the case would it be ok to put some filler in there?

thanks..
Yes, you can. Just a small tuft to touch the powder and high enough so the boolit pushes it down when seated. I buy garnetted fiberfill from Jo-Anne fabrics, it does not have all the funny strands.
I don't like the bat stuff, not even strands.
Garnetted is so easy to get in with a pencil without long, thick strands to fool with.

[mcal762]

The reason I ask is i had a 90+fps spread on one Of the 4198 loads... There was amid of air space in the case..

[44MAG#1]

I would use at least a 1.5 grain tuft. Then I would try the load with LR primes and LP primers.
That is the trouble with low loading densities. Try chronoing 3 with the powder in the front of the case and 3 with the powder to the rear and see what you get. These that believe some powders are not position sensitive either have never tried the above test or they just parrot some drivel they have heard from some "expert" they have heard spout their knowledge.
I have tests with some real fast so called non position sensitive powders in the 45 Colt that would surprise you.
Just try the front and back tests just for the enlightement of it and get back to us.

[mcal762]

That is what I was thinking... Gonna try the Dacron trick with the 4198 and do the test to see if the velocity is more consistent.

[44man]

4198 gave me a pressure excursion and stuck a few cases with my cast. It jumped to 1800 fps.
I did not get that with the Hornady bullet.
It could have been position. Either that or the boolit moved before the powder went off.

[Ramjet-SS]

I have used the 4198 in my 458 SOCOM with good results but have not had the same luck in my 45-70 the case capacity is the main difference and of course slight neck on the SOCOM. When I think of the 45-70 in a handgun I think pistol powder or faster burning powder would give you good performance but as several have said you will need filler. Now be sure add the weight of the filler and adjust the powder charge accordingly like always start lower work your way up. I will,post a pic of that 315 grain WFN CG I cast (Lyman #2 blend) for the 457 diameter guns. I use this in my SOCOM, 45-70 Encore rifle, 457 GNR. Bens TL Lube formula.

[rhouser]

Trail Boss replaced thr SR4759 for function. I hated it at first, now I am finding I use it quite a bit. I too have always used SR4759 for Lower Velocity 45-70 in my rifles and do like it a lot. I have never tried Trail Boss in my 45-70's, but, suspect it might be worth giving a try in the BFR. I shoot quite a bit of it in my Casull and find it to be adequately accurate and VERY predictable.

Just my 2 cents
rch

[44man]

Might be worth a try but I can't find it. I don't want to send for any and pay hazmat for a trial amount.
Just remember, the rifle is different. The revolver is so far away you can't come close.

[44MAG#1]

Try 47 grains of RL7 with the 405 grains bullet and see what kind of accuracy you get. You can always work the load a little to get more accuracy.
I use LR primers with it. Not saying it will shoot lights out on the first rodeo but you can work up and down some on it.
Another powder that is good is H322 with LR primers.

[mcal762]

What velocity do you get of 47 gr RL7? How's the recoil on that load!??

[44MAG#1]

Velocity with that load runs 1460 ish or so. Lyman list 23600 CUP with 46 and the Lyman 405 gr bullet.

[mcal762]

Found a old shooting times article from 1999 that shows a Hornady 300gr jhp with 42.0 gr of H110..... That's interesting.... Any thoughts... Not really sure about that load that powder can't be reduced but it did work in a 45-70 and produced 3"@50 yds...velocity 1548 fps...

[mcal762]

That's is what I was thinking start with 40gr, I have a can of W296 which to my understanding is the same as H110.. I know it shoots awesome in my 44 mag with a 240gr XTP... Might give this a try....

[44man]

Kind of scares me! Any reduction over a proven load can be bad.
I have never seen an H110 or 296 load for the 45-70. You are going to have airspace no matter what.
Not going in my gun. Those are powders I will not fool with.

[Ramjet-SS]

Yea I agree with 44 man I did a pile of research on that powder in the 45-70 and cannot find one thing stay away from it there are way better choices.

Here are some powders with data listed.

H4198
IMR 4198
H335
H332
IMR8208
IMR3031
IMR4064
IMR4895
AA2015
RL7
RL10
AA2230
X-Terminator
AA5744
Unique
630
2400
SR4759

[mcal762]

Test loads for today:

405 gr (badman) imr 4198 38.0 gr cci 200 w/dacron
1365 fps 1 1/4" @ 50 yds

300 gr cast imr 4198 38.0 gr cci 200 w/dacron 1" @ 50 yds

retested for velocity RL7 35.5 gr 405 cast cci 200 w/Dacron
average was 1212fps 1 1/2" @ 50yds

cheers...

[44man]

After I got my BFR it took a month of research before I ever pulled the trigger. Seems so much is not compatible in the revolver. Even 4759 loads were slim to none.
Nobody has done much work with them and if you do a search most of my stuff will pop up. No powder maker has revolver loads.
MR told me stay at 30,000 psi or under but they make a .450 marlin cylinder for the frame so it must be just brass. The .450 would be WAY too hard to work with.
Knowing revolvers and all short barrels, even single shots with short barrels and large cases, I knew I was biting off a lot with a 45-70 and do not know why I even thought about it.
I went with 10" for a reason. The stinking gun is already so huge what is a few inches?
It turned into a love affair far above any other gun. Same with all my BFR's. I had to sell great guns to get mine but you will never pry a BFR from me.
Going with a 45-70 in 7-1/2" might not be a good decision and just makes it harder but I am seeing some good results so far. I expect 1" at 50 might be the best. Nothing to sneer at and good for hunting.

[44MAG#1]

As I stated in an above post the 425 RanchDog bullet that weighs 435 grains from my alloy ran above 1460 from a 7.5 inch barrel. And while I was shooting offhand at fifty I dropped the first shot slightly low left but put the next four into 3.5 inches. That is good for me with Iron sights and no more than I shoot now.
Many on here can do better than I but I still done see any thing wrong with a 7.5 inch barrel.
From the Lyman 49 th handbook the 405 Lyman runs 46 gr or RL7 at 23600 CUP. The RanchDog bullet seats roughly the same depth in the case so pressures at 47 grain can't be to much more than a Lyman 405 with the same load.
Of course, what do I know? Nothing it seems to many.
Oh well.

[Ramjet-SS]

Test loads for today:

405 gr (badman) imr 4198 38.0 gr cci 200 w/dacron
1365 fps 1 1/4" @ 50 yds

300 gr cast imr 4198 38.0 gr cci 200 w/dacron 1" @ 50 yds

retested for velocity RL7 35.5 gr 405 cast cci 200 w/Dacron
average was 1212fps 1 1/2" @ 50yds

cheers...

Well it is interesting playing with different loads but you have it down anything you mention above will take a deer without issue.

[mcal762]

yeah I'm leaning on the 405 gr (Badman Boolit) RL7 35.5 gr cci 200 w/Dacron at 1250 fps 1 1/4" @ 50 yds. I think it will get the job done with no issues on pretty much anything that it connects with. The 300 gr Hornady JHP with 4198 is also a very capable round to take to the woods.. I like the cast boolit better of the two...


44Man,

"It turned into a love affair far above any other gun. Same with all my BFR's. I had to sell great guns to get mine but you will never pry a BFR from me."

You are so right... this BFR is one sweet pistol!! I look at my SRH go.. ughhh maybe i'll take you out to play tomorrow....

Gotta another list of loads that I'm working on will post later..


Cheers...

[44man]

Last thing I worry about is velocity and barrel length is not that huge an affect. It is powder burn and consistent burn that bit me.
The velocities you fellas are getting would actually be better for deer since mine is too fast with hard boolits. Complete explosion with too soft.
Short barrels are only harder to find "the" load. That goes for all large calibers, large cases.
No, you do not need 1/2" at 50 for deer but you need all chickens in a row to clang steel at 547 yards.
I watched Jerry clang steel at 1000 off hand but he is not normal or human so I can't go there.
Now we have that fastest archery guy that runs up a wall and hits targets on the way down, shoot an arrow at him and he shoots it out of the air. He shoots two card cheats on the other side of a table before they can move. Cardboard of course but you fellas have to find that video.

[mcal762]

I really like the 405 gr load at 1060fps it accurate and fun to shoot! I think it would do well on a deer also... I'm sure that it would go completely through both shoulders.... It's nothing compared to the 405gr at 1365 fps but dead is dead...

[44man]

I really like the 405 gr load at 1060fps it accurate and fun to shoot! I think it would do well on a deer also... I'm sure that it would go completely through both shoulders.... It's nothing compared to the 405gr at 1365 fps but dead is dead...
It sure will, no stopping it.
The deer I just about ruined was shot with a 420 gr cast 50-50 with a HP but I did not chronograph them. It was one of Babore's boolits, oven hardened. OH MY, what destruction. Lost a whole shoulder at exit.
I have not seen him here for a long time. I know he had to change jobs and move. He made fantastic boolits.

[mcal762]

what is the average penetration from a 405gr boolit at 1250fps? I saw a youtube where a 500gr at 1300fps penetrated 25 one gallon water jugs....

My next loads are going to be the Badman .459 405gr boolit, bluedot with Dacron (2.0gr) and a pistol primer...

[44MAG#1]

"I really like the 405 gr load at 1060fps it accurate and fun to shoot! I think it would do well on a deer also... I'm sure that it would go completely through both shoulders.... It's nothing compared to the 405gr at 1365 fps but dead is dead..."

No one questions whether the load you mentioned is enough because it is. I don't shoot full power in mine.
But, one question is this, why buy a mazaratti to go to wal mart in? My old Chevy Impala does just as well for that. It does not get the ooh's and ahh's as much but it gets the job done.
Now if I want a soft recoiling revolver I will break out my 45 Colt with the 270 SAA bullet backed by 19 grain 2400 and carry it.
Of course one must do what one wants to do. Farmers have killed hogs with a 22 LR for years and Bell used a 7X57 on Elephants too.
While I don't run wide open I want something worthy of the launch platform.
I have lately been experimenting with a 410 grain bullet in my Redhawk 45 Colt for future rat medicine. Good load for that.
Oh well what do I know?

[Cornbread]

what is the average penetration from a 405gr boolit at 1250fps? I saw a youtube where a 500gr at 1300fps penetrated 25 one gallon water jugs....

My next loads are going to be the Badman .459 405gr boolit, bluedot with Dacron (2.0gr) and a pistol primer...

It's 10' 4" of penetration through 20 jugs and into the 21st at 1325fps:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pJHjSfap7c

I bet you get at least 7' of penetration with a 405gr at 1200 - 1300fps if the jugs are close enough that the bullet is still traveling that fast when it hits them and the bullet is hard cast. With hard cast at 100 yards or less that would probably completely north to south enter and exit any North American animal and most African ones too. I guess it depends on how dead you want the elk and the six other ones behind it in a single shot :)

[44man]

Total penetration means little except you do want 2 holes. It is what the boolit does in the short distance between the ribs. Deer are small. Requirements for larger animals will change towards more penetration. I believe my best deer boolits will be just right for a huge buf or bear.

[Ramjet-SS]

I shot deer with my 475 Linebaugh the load chronographed from the rifle at 1100 FPS the bullet was LFN that weighed 355 grains the big doe was facing me I put the cross hair right on the white patch. The deer was 70 yards I was in a tree stand. At the shot the deer reared up ward and flipped over to her back and kicked twice and was done. The bullet traveled the entire length of the deer and exited just to the left of her anus. Her boiler room was a mess. so that load you like so much will do just fine shoot right behind the shoulders or quartering away.

[mcal762]

That is at least 4 feet of penetration.. and a water hose clean up...

[Ramjet-SS]

Well today I ran the 330 grain cast from my 458 SOCOM same bullet I use in the 45-70. A water soaked news print as the test media.

458 SOCOM AR RRA 16" upper my build
330 Grain GC LFP from an Accurate mould hard cast. Loaded over AA1680
Shot from 25 yards velocity 5' from the muzzle 1300 FPS.
28+ inches of penetration very similar to the 475 above just deeper.
Retained weight 313.8 grains

Should be no doubt that the 405 grain will do everything you need.

[mcal762]

That would go through both shoulders of any deer standing in NA!

[mcal762]

Test loads for this week:

405 gr cast 35.5 IMR 4198 cci 200 2.0 gr Dacron filler

405 get cast 22.0 gr blue dot cci 300 2.0 gr Dacron filler.
tested once at 25yds 1/2" group moving back to 50yds for this test.

cheers

[mcal762]

And the results are:


405 gr cast 35.5 IMR 4198 cci 200 2.0 gr Dacron filler
5" at 50 yds 1295fps medium recoil.
Poor accuracy gonna shelf this load...


405 gr cast 22.0 gr blue dot cci 300 2.0 gr Dacron filler
1 1/8" at 50 yds! No pressure signs cases came out of cylinder with no issues.
1250 fps.

Good load, very accurate and medium to low recoil.

R-P brass and Badman cast bullets.


cheers

[mcal762]

Next load test




405 gr cast 36.0 gr RL 7 cci 200 1 gr Dacron filler


405 gr cast 24.0 gr 2400 cci 200 2 gr Dacron filler


R-P brass and Badman cast bullets.




cheers

[mcal762]

Load results:


405 gr cast 36.0 gr RL 7 cci 200 1 gr Dacron filler
2 1/4" at 50 yds


405 gr cast 24.0 gr 2400 cci 200 2 gr Dacron filler
3"at 50yds

retesting with 25.0 gr 2400 and cci 300 primer.

[Ramjet-SS]

Looking forward to the report.

[mcal762]

Impressive load!!!

405gr cast 25.0 gr 2400 2.0 Dacron cci 300
results 1" at 50 yds 2 bullets touching!!!
1250 fps 1404 ftlbs KO 33

plan on loading another set to test again!!!

[Ramjet-SS]

Just getting better and better.

[44man]

Impressive load!!!

405gr cast 25.0 gr 2400 2.0 Dacron cci 300
results 1" at 50 yds 2 bullets touching!!!
1250 fps 1404 ftlbs KO 33

plan on loading another set to test again!!!
Perfect for deer!

[mcal762]

Its amazing what a primer can do to accuracy. Switching from a rifle primer to a pistol primer made a world of difference on how the load grouped. I did see where you can go to about 27gr of 2400 with a 405gr cast boolit but I think that the group might open up some.. that 25.0 gr load might be the sweet spot.

So far Blue dot and 2400 with pistol primers have provided excellent accuracy. RL7 and 4198 have done well but +/- 1 grain can be a deal breaker on those powders as far as accuracy.

Thinking of running test loads up to 27gr of 2400 to see how it does but the 25gr load might be my go to deer load for this season with the 405 gr cast.

[mcal762]

Anyone have a good accurate load for the Hornady 325 ftx bullet? Found a box yesterday at BPS..
i have 4198,RL7,2400 on hand.
Thanks

[44man]

Its amazing what a primer can do to accuracy. Switching from a rifle primer to a pistol primer made a world of difference on how the load grouped. I did see where you can go to about 27gr of 2400 with a 405gr cast boolit but I think that the group might open up some.. that 25.0 gr load might be the sweet spot.

So far Blue dot and 2400 with pistol primers have provided excellent accuracy. RL7 and 4198 have done well but +/- 1 grain can be a deal breaker on those powders as far as accuracy.

Thinking of running test loads up to 27gr of 2400 to see how it does but the 25gr load might be my go to deer load for this season with the 405 gr cast.
If you read anything from me you know how important primers are. But try a LP mag primer next. I love the Fed 155. You do know the hammer spring in the 45-70 BFR is not for a rifle primer? The spring for the .450 Marlin will be 28# while the 45-70 is around 22 to 23#. I change to 26# in all my revolvers.
Sorry I can't help with the new bullet.

[44man]

Get a Wolfe, 26# variable hammer spring and accuracy will improve. Toss the factory spring, it takes a set. If you shoot rifle primers go to 28#.
28# is OK for LP mags too.

[Ramjet-SS]

Anyone have a good accurate load for the Hornady 325 ftx bullet? Found a box yesterday at BPS..
i have 4198,RL7,2400 on hand.
Thanks

You need to drive that bullet at max velocity. It's going to kick.

[mcal762]

You need to drive that bullet at max velocity. It's going to kick.

Yeah I see the factory Hornady is like 2100fps 7.5" BFR is getting 1800 fps.... There's not much load data out there on this bullet... I'm sure 4198 47gr might do it...

[Ramjet-SS]

You will also have to trim the OAL of the brass some not as much an issue in the revolver because of the lead and cylinder gap. In article just like Barnes X bullets long for the weight seat off the lands by 50 thousandths.

[mcal762]

I'm guessing the length issue is because of the seating/crimp dies? Have you used these bullets?
thanks

[Ramjet-SS]

Well they are much like Barnes X and long for weight compared to plain lead bullets. So it really does not apply to you in the revolver because loading these and Barnes X against the rifling can drive pressures higher than you want. Yes Imload them in my SOCOM but only because I had some I much prefer the 300 Grain HP or 330-350 grain WFN cast bullets.

[mcal762]

Do you know a good load for these with 4198?
thanks

[Ramjet-SS]

Trim your cases to 2.040 you must do this with these bullets.

Due to the longer ogive it is critical that cartridge cases be trimmed to the length specified.

Work up slow little at a time paying attention to pressure signs.

Marlin level loads starting at

IMR 4198 is starting 40.5 ending at 47.9 grains

H4198 is starting at 42.0 grains ending 47.9 grains

[44man]

Not for the BFR, there is so much room for bullets there is no problem.

[44MAG#1]

I am probably just stupid and on top of that a simpleton. What I would do is leave my cases alone and seat the bullet and crimp over the ojive and reduce my load maybe a grain and a half and have at it.
All this what if's and wherefores is just too time consuming for me. The KISS principle is the way to go.
Besides you won't have to seat the gullet very deep to accomplish what you want.

[bosterr]

Get a Wolfe, 26# variable hammer spring and accuracy will improve. Toss the factory spring, it takes a set. If you shoot rifle primers go to 28#.
28# is OK for LP mags too.

I just checked the Wolf spring site. I assume you use the listed Ruger single action spring in the BFR. I'll be getting a 3 pack of the 26#. Do you happen to know what the factory BFR spring is? Just curious. This is for my 475 using Fed. #155 primers.

Did you ever change the trigger spring for a lighter one?

[Ramjet-SS]

I am probably just stupid and on top of that a simpleton. What I would do is leave my cases alone and seat the bullet and crimp over the ojive and reduce my load maybe a grain and a half and have at it.
All this what if's and wherefores is just too time consuming for me. The KISS principle is the way to go.
Besides you won't have to seat the gullet very deep to accomplish what you want.

Do that in a lever gun you may dirt the bullet deeper into the case with each shot? The crimp groove holds the bullet in place in a positive manner both directions. Just saying....

[44MAG#1]

Ramjet-SS:

I thought he was talking about a revolver. Was he not talking about a revolver?
I know with a rifle he couldn't do that.
Was I wrong in assuming he was talking about a handgun?
Oh wait, Buffalo Bore crimps the 350 Speer over the ogive for lever guns by using a powder and charge that supports the bullet so I guess it could be done in a rifle by someone that understood the process.
But there again since the cylinder on the BFR is more than long enough for him to seat the bullet to the crimp groove and leave his brass alone why not do that.

[mcal762]

Range report:


325gr FTX 45.0 4198 cci 200 1/2 group at 50 yds!!!
awesome load!!!!


Moderate/strong recoil but not painful.
will chrony next time..

300 gr cast 12.5 gr unique cci 300
1" group at 50yds 584 ftlbs KO 18

405 gr cast 12.5 gr unique cci 300
3" group at 50 yds 734 ftlbs KO 24

both unique loads have little to no recoil and shoot ok.

cheers

[mcal762]

Yes and yes... I loaded the brass to full length and did not trim it. The cylinder on the BFR is almost 3" long so it all work very well... My old Hornady dies worked like a champ... Those bullets shoot very good and are wicked accurate!!!!

[44man]

Yes and yes... I loaded the brass to full length and did not trim it. The cylinder on the BFR is almost 3" long so it all work very well... My old Hornady dies worked like a champ... Those bullets shoot very good and are wicked accurate!!!!
You make me more happy all the time, awesome shooting.
There is a lot of room for a bullet. I measure 9/16" from my boolit nose to the end of the cylinder.
Kind of throws the stuff out the window about needing the boolit close to the forcing cone.

[mcal762]

Chrony the Hornady 325 Ftx came to 1405 fps 1425 ftlb KO29
45.0 gr IMR 4198 cci 200
excellent accuracy 1/2" @ 50yds!!!'

did a velocity test on 405 gr cast 45.0 gr IMR 4198 cci200
1578 fps 2348 ftlb KO 41!!!' Very close to the power of a 500 S&w!!!

strong recoil! Not for the weak!!

[Ramjet-SS]

check the velocity range for that FTX I think you are below the min threshold.

[mcal762]

I saw on the Hornady site that the range is 1600-2600 fps, I can't imagine anything shot with that bullet surviving the impact not sure of the level of expansion it would produce.

[Ramjet-SS]

That's the issue there would be little to no expansion that's why big wide flat noses on hard cast heavy bullets work. A that pointy thing may not expand much at all. The way I like to describe it is like this; If a diver dives into the water with hands extended and cuts through like they do in competition they barely make a splash. Now take the big guy with big ole beer belly do a cannon ball you get huge splash and disruption in the water. A the beer belly guy is a heavy wide flat Nose cast bullet. The finesse diver is pointy FTX bullet.

[Cornbread]

If you can drive that FTX fast enough to expand it they are devastating on deer. The oldest buck I have ever shot, I took with an FTX bullet out of a Marlin Guide gun in 45-70. It has the most points too of any rack I have but it was so old it's points aren't very tall but it was very heavy bodied. In the years prior I had shot several very heavy bucks with a 30-30 in the same area here in Montana. Good shots on all but ended up tracking them farther than I felt they should have gone given where I hit them. So I switched to the 45-70 mid-season that year and had no molds for it so I went with FTX bullets. I shot the buck at 60 yards or so right behind the shoulder. He did sort of an over his right shoulder somersault and that was the end of him. I was driving them at a muzzle velocity of 2,000fps and at that speed I can tell you for sure there is no whitetail on this planet that is going to recover from being hit by it. I have long since switched to cast FP bullets in that gun and they work great as well but I don't have to drive them anywhere near as fast as I did the FTX bullets to get good results. This is the 350grn RF by NOE that both my BFR and my Guide Gun really like:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/AndyTheCornbread/1111-108-460350GrRFRD_zps383d8063.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/AndyTheCornbread/IMG_6360_zpsdpjmrfn8.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/AndyTheCornbread/IMG_6336_zpsb01walba.jpg

[44man]

Now that might be a problem on game. I do not know where the FTX expands. You are going to need expansion with it. Might be too slow.
I would try hunting with the 405 gr first.
But do not depend on a WLN or WFN with a hard boolit either, They fail as fast as a pointed bullet if shot too fast. I would cast half the nose softer and leave the rest hard.
It is a 100% misconception that all you need is a flat meplat. Velocity differences will toss that in the trash. So will boolit weight.
My experience has shown a hard WFN shot too fast creates a pressure wave wide from the meplat that moves tissue out of the way in a secondary wound channel that will collapse after the boolit exits and have little damage. Slowing the boolit in passage with just a little expansion will apply more energy to tissue.
The old saw that a .45 is already larger then an expanded .30 does not hold water. You need "DWELL TIME."
The same problem cropped up with my .500 JRH with a 440 gr WFN at 1350 fps. The big boolit did not slow and never knew a deer was in the way. They would go 100 to 120 yards with no blood trail at all. Half the nose softened and 4 out of 5 hit the ground, the fifth made 20 yards spraying blood.
Experience was bad. I shot a doe and lost her, no blood at all. I spent a few hours but no spoor so I sat down again. I shot a buck at 120 yards off hand. He ran to me 100 yards, turned into the woods another 20 yards and fell. I back tracked and did not find a drop of blood anywhere.
I gutted him and it got dark, my light picked up white back in the woods, it was the first deer. I had 2 I could have lost.
I wish guys would get off the hard flat nose syndrome, it only works in a small velocity window from revolvers.
I have no idea if over 2000 fps from a rifle.
There is a point you need some expansion.

[44man]

If you can drive that FTX fast enough to expand it they are devastating on deer. The oldest buck I have ever shot, I took with an FTX bullet out of a Marlin Guide gun in 45-70. It has the most points too of any rack I have but it was so old it's points aren't very tall but it was very heavy bodied. In the years prior I had shot several very heavy bucks with a 30-30 in the same area here in Montana. Good shots on all but ended up tracking them farther than I felt they should have gone given where I hit them. So I switched to the 45-70 mid-season that year and had no molds for it so I went with FTX bullets. I shot the buck at 60 yards or so right behind the shoulder. He did sort of an over his right shoulder somersault and that was the end of him. I was driving them at a muzzle velocity of 2,000fps and at that speed I can tell you for sure there is no whitetail on this planet that is going to recover from being hit by it. I have long since switched to cast FP bullets in that gun and they work great as well but I don't have to drive them anywhere near as fast as I did the FTX bullets to get good results. This is the 350grn RF by NOE that both my BFR and my Guide Gun really like:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/AndyTheCornbread/1111-108-460350GrRFRD_zps383d8063.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/AndyTheCornbread/IMG_6360_zpsdpjmrfn8.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/AndyTheCornbread/IMG_6336_zpsb01walba.jpg
Good boolit, looks exactly like my 317 gr. But I made them too hard and lost two deer, found the third over 200 yards. Pink lungs with just a hole. Only reason I found it was I know where they go.
The 2 I lost went into private properties. Next time I use the gun, half the nose will be softer.

[mcal762]

Interesting topic on velocity and bullet placement; I'm kinda thinking that a 405 gr cast at 1100-1200 fps will take deer just fine. I think there is a point if the bullet is going at too high of a velocity it will just zip right through what ever it hits with little to no expansion. thus little to no wound channel thus giving the animal the ability to go further distances and not be recovered.

I saw somewhere on this site that for CAST bullets to aim at the shoulders and with JHP/JSP bullets to aim right behind the shoulder... I'm thinking of 405gr going through both shoulders would do enough damage to kill pretty fast..

Thoughts???

[Ramjet-SS]

I suggest you get the book written by Veral Skith of the LBT fame he does and outstanding job of describing the damage from WFN and LFN and unlike 44 man I have NEVER had a deer run several hundred yards hit through the lungs with a cast WFN from 45-70 or my 475 they all dropped within sight. Every single on of them had two holes in and out with complete pass throughs. Now 44 man says the bullets failed on those two deer but how would you know you never recovered them I say the operator failed and did not put the bullet through the boiler room. I am just as correct as 44 man in that neither of us know for sure because the deer were not recovered. By the way 44 man I am not trying to be a jerk here but making or speculating the cause without evidence of those two deer is near impossible and W.A.G. at best.

Now to the FTX; water soak some news paper or magazines till completely water soaked and shoot both the cast and the FTX from your gun and do some comparative analysis. Then if you have a known caliber and bullet that you have successfully taken game with shoot that into the same news print then compare the results. Not perfect but fun and will give you an idea but above all............above anything.............is BULLET PLACEMENT.

[44man]

Accuracy first, then alter the boolit to work. You can adjust for velocity.

[Ramjet-SS]

Interesting topic on velocity and bullet placement; I'm kinda thinking that a 405 gr cast at 1100-1200 fps will take deer just fine. I think there is a point if the bullet is going at too high of a velocity it will just zip right through what ever it hits with little to no expansion. thus little to no wound channel thus giving the animal the ability to go further distances and not be recovered.

I saw somewhere on this site that for CAST bullets to aim at the shoulders and with JHP/JSP bullets to aim right behind the shoulder... I'm thinking of 405gr going through both shoulders would do enough damage to kill pretty fast..

Thoughts???

Heck put it through the vitals and you will recover that deer quickly. Magical shots not hitting vitals will result in lost game or long recovery efforts.

I shot hot several deer facing me with my 475 at 1100 FPS a 355 grain WFN the bullet exited after traversing the entire length of the deer. Took out the vitals and everything else all those deer shot lengthwise rolled backwards and DRT. The shots angled through the deer from between the sternum and the shoulder and exited just to the side of the anus. Everything in between was devastated.

Yes I had deer go along ways but recovered all but two with archery equipment. Cannot tell you the issue other than I most likely screwed up the shot. The deer I have had long drawn out recovery on all every single one of them was poor shots placement period end of story. Two I hit too far forward in the brisket lots of blood lots of white hair and long long long tracking jobs both recovered with good shots after I jumped them from their beds. Two others too low shot the darn leg off of them again poor shots long tracking and follow up shots closed the deal in one case another youth Hunter sealed the deal on one of them. I was happy for him and glad my poor shooting was corrected.

Just like archery quartering away shots are high percentage shots aiming through the animal for the off side leg.

[Ramjet-SS]

Good boolit, looks exactly like my 317 gr. But I made them too hard and lost two deer, found the third over 200 yards. Pink lungs with just a hole. Only reason I found it was I know where they go.
The 2 I lost went into private properties. Next time I use the gun, half the nose will be softer.

I agree nice boolit my favorite weight in the 458 diameter.

[Cornbread]

Good boolit, looks exactly like my 317 gr. But I made them too hard and lost two deer, found the third over 200 yards. Pink lungs with just a hole. Only reason I found it was I know where they go.
The 2 I lost went into private properties. Next time I use the gun, half the nose will be softer.

Yes, agreed they should not be too hard or you will lose game. I water drop 50/50 and then I take a 400 degree tempilstik and put it on the nose and then put the bullet in cold water up to the top driving band that you can see there above the case then I heat the nose evenly until the tempilstick melts and then I let it air cool. The other way that works is to use BruceB's two part bullet method using COWW and pure lead. Either way I get a real nice mushroom squish on the front of the bullet and the deer don't go anywhere. I'm pretty good at it but I hate tracking deer. I want them to drop in place or very close to it because when they run they nearly always end up some place that really stinks to try and pack them out of.

[44man]

The deer I lost were hit both behind the shoulders. Both were only 20 yards too. I seen the hits.
I did not tell about another one. I hit her good and she walked some, I hit her again and she took off, went up a steep hill, near dark. I was able to track her but she went over the top of the hill. I heard a shot, then my name called. It was a man from up town I know. He seen her go by and dropped her with his rifle. He heard my shots. I tried to give the deer to him but he didn't want it.
My hits were perfect double lung shots. Maybe 2" apart. Boolit too hard for 1632 fps. Now at 1300 fps, they would work. I just can't shoot the big BFR that slow and hit anything.
Now my .475 with the same hardness will drop almost every deer where they stand. Only 1 deer made 30 yards with it, heart shot but here is what a .475 does inside.147685
Then has a 45-70 rifle creeped in here?

[monge]

Im sizing to .460 in my guide gun whats the best size for the BFR ?

[44man]

Im sizing to .460 in my guide gun whats the best size for the BFR ?
.459". Groove is .458" and throats are .5492" to .4595".

[Cornbread]

.459 seems to work best for me in the BFR, same as 44man.

[44MAG#1]

Now with all this testing to determine a good load which load have you selected to sight in with and use as your "working" load?
I am sure you have, by now, determined that.

[mcal762]

Just tested my 25.0 gr 2400 with 405 gr (badman bullet .459) cci 300 2.0gr Dacron at 50 yds gives about 1250fps and 1 1/2" group at 50yds..

think this is gonna be my deer load for 2015...

[Ramjet-SS]

good choice and good shooting.

[mcal762]

New test loads:
405 cast 50.0 gr varget cci 200
Guessing velocity 1350 fps from 7.5" barrel

Hope to test this week!

[mcal762]

Results :
405 cast 50.0 gr varget cci 200
1295 fps 1507ftlb KO34 2 1/4" group at 50yds

good load some unburned powder, recoil not bad but firm!

[Ramjet-SS]

Varget is pretty temperature stable as well.

[mcal762]

Just fired off 5 more rounds of 50.0gr varget and 405gr cast and proved to be a consistent 2 1/2" group at 50yds... Very consistent and pretty accurate considering...

[44man]

Just fired off 5 more rounds of 50.0gr varget and 405gr cast and proved to be a consistent 2 1/2" group at 50yds... Very consistent and pretty accurate considering...
Go hunting!

[mcal762]

Won't be too long until season opens

[Ramjet-SS]

Till then shoot away and keep having fun.

[44man]

Where did the year go? Leaves are falling and soon I will need to vacuum them up. I have too many trees in my yard. Apples on the one tree are falling so we have 3 six points, an 8 point, a 4 and a spike in the yard along with a pile of doe. I can't hunt my woods anymore. They walk right past me and my dog. We can walk right up to them or they walk to us.

[Cornbread]

This is what I shoot out of mine for deer, elk an bear now days: 38.5 grain IMR-3031, under a 405gr bullet (46-405C by Accurate Molds) sized to .459. I think it does around 1,250fps but I haven't run it to be sure yet.

I shot this group of five at 50 yards today and the only reason I had the one way out there was because I flinched the heck out of that shot rushing it instead of taking my time. Sorry about the ugly target but I shoot at my house range so often I just buy cheap copier paper and draw a mark on it and shoot at it. I can't see spending good money on something I put holes in every afternoon I can get time to do it.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/AndyTheCornbread/IMG_6575_zpskt6nrdpy.jpg

[mcal762]

Cornbread nice shooting!!!! May have to pick up a can of 3031 next time I'm at the store !! What primer?

I did a test load of 15.0 gr of unique cci 300 and 405gr cast and shot 2" at 50yds.. Guessing velocity around 1000-1100 fps. It was a smooth load fun to shoot with low recoil...

[Cornbread]

Primers were Winchester large rifle primers but I am almost out of those so I will see very shortly if it remains consistent like this with CCI large rifle. I'll post back when I try them. I have about 20 WLR primers left out of the box of 1,000 and then I will switch to CCI which is what I use in most of my other loads. I'm really wanting to cut down on primers types that I have to keep around so hopefully the CCIs will shoot just as well.

[mcal762]

load of 15.0 gr of unique cci 300 and 405gr cast no filler and shot 2" at 50yds.. Chrono velocity was 1115 fps 1117 ftlb KO29

[mcal762]

Loaded 16.0 gr of unique 405 gr cast and cci 300 ... 50yd group 1 1/2" group velocity was 1125fps.. Good load for fun shooting low recoil.

[44man]

About like my .45 Colt that has taken many deer. Good to go.

[mcal762]

What size bullet and velocity do you get out of a 45 colt

[44man]

What size bullet and velocity do you get out of a 45 colt
I use the 335 LBT at 1160 fps and the Lyman 452651 the same.
You are OK as long as accuracy is what you have. That thing will kill just fine. Place your boolit and fire up the BBQ. Let me know, I want some bacon wrapped back straps!

[mcal762]

That sounds really good.. Everything is better with bacon..
That 405 gr round even at 1125fps has more knock down power than most factory 44 mag rounds that has killed thousands of deer and hogs..

[mcal762]

Your 45 colt load sounds like a +P mix..

[44man]

Your 45 colt load sounds like a +P mix..
Original Vaquero with 21.5 gr of 296. Mean, green machine!

[mcal762]

That pretty hot for 45 LC about 1000ftlbs of energy

[mcal762]

Just ordered some 350gr .459 cast boolits any good loads for the BFR that anyone wants to share would be much appreciated...

thanks

[44man]

Just ordered some 350gr .459 cast boolits any good loads for the BFR that anyone wants to share would be much appreciated...

thanks
With a 350 and 360 I used 30 gr of SR 4759, tuft of Dacron and Fed 155 primers.
Hardest thing ever is to find any load info for the powder. I have no idea what max would be but this is the load that gave me 3/16" at 50 yards.
Then the problem of finding powder so I made sure I got another 16# before it went away.

[Cornbread]

Just ordered some 350gr .459 cast boolits any good loads for the BFR that anyone wants to share would be much appreciated...

thanks

Can you post back with what ends up working best for you? I have a couple of 350grn molds that I use in 45-70 rifles but I have not worked up a great BFR load with them yet. Just haven't had the time. I use a 405grn gas checked bullet in mine, not because the gas check was needed for the BFR load, I need it for a heavy rifle load but it ended up working well in the BFR even though the gas check is probably not needed at the 1,250fps I shoot it at out of the BFR. Still if I rest it on sand bags I can get 1" - 1.5" at 50 yards depending on how much caffeine I have had(it makes my hands shake). I'd love to find a load in 350grn that works as well so when you find one, please post back, it will give me a starting point for when I go to work up a 350grn load in mine.

[mcal762]

Cornbread, i'll dig around on the web and see what I can find to start out with and go from there..
Thanks..

[44man]

Once you understand case capacity to barrel length and powder choice, You will see it is not easy to transfer rifle loads. Then the handicap of a 7-1/2" when a 10" was a nightmare. I feel for you. What possessed you to go short? I don't think my loads will work.
You have cut success by more then half.
You all do not know how hard it was for me with a 10". Took a month before my first shot.
My advantage was that I knew I was in trouble when I bought the gun.
A few buy a 4" .500 S&W ----------------WHAT THE HELL STUNG YOUR BUTT? 10 yard gun with the targets set on fire. Claims of high velocities from short barrels are found every day--Hey Peter Pan flew up your nose too.
I get 1316 fps with my .44 and a 310 gr boolit and others claim more with a 4" and mine is a 10". Your puter keys are stuck.

[Ramjet-SS]

I have harvested many deer with the 355 grain WFN at 1200 FPS. So get there. I wonder with that short barrle If you can use some of the heavier Unique loads to get that velocity from your length barrel? Filler with the use of Unique will address some issues residue or unburnt powder of that bothers you.

[44man]

You can get enough to kill with for sure. Problem was accuracy and I went through so many powders including Unique that I had to borrow some from friends.
A few would shoot good but I could pour unburned powder from the case.
The slowest I tried was Varget but ran out of it, it showed real promise and was better then some faster ones. I found uses for Varget with exceptional results in calibers that Hodgdon told me it would not work in.
4198 worked pretty good with bullets but gave me pressure excursions with cast. Had some shots reach 1800 fps and stuck brass. No idea what was going on, not a heavy load.
3031 was accurate but would not all burn, very slow velocity.
Accuracy with Unique and 2400, etc was beaten by my sling shot.
Varget is a very strange powder, it seems to cover a range the maker does not know and is worth working with.
I found 4759 best of all but you still need to watch it. I went up in boolit weight so I reduced 1/2 gr and even with Dacron one did not light so I had to increase the load.

[Ramjet-SS]

Well you must be shooting some exceptional guns and frankly what did not work for your gun may be just fine in another gun. I have had great accuracy with Unique in the guns I used it in. I burned powder? So what every shot you take leaves a bunch of residue. Man I have shot and seen some incredible accuracy with Black Powder and even without swabbing between shots had good accuracy. The problem you have 44 man is that you are seeking bench rest accuracy. Admirable and a heck of a goal but it's not necessary, nor is every shooter capable and frankly bench accuracy does not always translate to the field because rarely will game give you a standing still shot while the shooter sits at the bench with the gun rested on sand bags. Let those critters get close and use the quarting away shot and you will put meat in the freezer.

Compitition shooting for accuracy is a whole different game and undoubtedly you have some great expereince and offerings with regards to loading and shooting.

My point is this; like you did try different things and Unique is an excellent choice as are many other powders. Each shooter will determine if it meets thier standards for accuracy and thier reality may vary greatly from yours. The gun will tell them if it works. That's the fun. It's supposed to be FUN.

[44man]

I do admit to being an accuracy nut but for a long time I have been only a hunter. Do I need BR for deer? maybe not but it sure brings confidence to know my boolit goes where aimed.
Maybe I am wrong but I think accuracy is more important for hunting then a piece of paper. I HATE paper targets.
Most of my deer are shot off hand and I do not stop deer, easier on the run or walking for me since moving the revolver is taking my shakes away. It is not easy to hold steady on a standing deer.
True I start at 50 yards and if a few shots are close, then I get crazy fliers, that plain sucks because they will be magnified at longer ranges.
If you get 2" groups at 50, GREAT but if you have some out to 6 or 8", I would NOT take that load to the field. If you limit to 50 or under for every deer you are good to go but what if a buck of a lifetime is 75 or 80 yards?
Can you see my point that a deer does not deserve to be wounded or get away because your load goes astray?
Posts always say a heavy .44 boolit will kill at 900 to 1100 FPS which is true but can you even hit the deer? I kept reading the posts so I made a test, bringing my boolit to 1100 fps. Now the right load did 1-5/16" at 200 yards Now look at a 50 yard pattern when not shot right.152235 Would you hunt with this?
The BFR 45-70 needs the right load as well as any gun. There is a velocity for each boolit where things come together. You can say 1200 fps is good and I would also say the same until you can convince me the boolits will hit where you aim. Sadly I would not shoot at deer with anything less then what the gun can do.
You need to add shakes and buck fever to your groups so what do you have? I do not get buck fever but I shake. It is why a smooth lead on a moving deer is easier.
I will bet all of you that buy a rifle will not accept poor groups at 100. Yet the revolver is not expected to shoot.

[Ramjet-SS]

Like I said every gun and shooter are a story unto themselves unique so you never know unless you try. What works for you may not work for me or the next guy. What works for me may not work for the next guy or you but you never know until you try. The fun in trying is the what the process is all about. As long as you are safe and you are enjoying the experience by all means.......Try.

[44man]

It is a little easier then that. Take my .44, my loads have worked in every Ruger and S&W except boolits no heavier then 265 gr for the S&W. My BFR loads have worked perfectly in all my friends BFR's. .475, JRH, and even the 45-70. The real truth is my younger friends actually out shoot me. This is where the shooter comes in. Usually a good load will span almost all guns.
One friend bought a new SBH Hunter, I did the trigger and put his Ultra Dot on it and I loaded his cases. During sight in with him shooting, every group he shot was under 1/2" at 50. He went deer hunting and shot his deer in the neck.
Then Don came to hunt, I told him to leave the 270 home since I had him shooting my SBH, I fit him with a shoulder holster and my SBH. His very first revolver deer was a perfect heart shot.
I have never found a need to ever change a load for another gun.
Another truth is I have tested every load ever posted here and from gun rags and none worked.
Again, I have hundreds of boolit molds, my own, Dave Farmers, Lee, Lyman, RCBS and I cast exactly the same with all of them. The only one different was a huge brass mold that needed to be hotter. Made great boolits but I had to work faster then I like.
The worst thing revolver shooters do is ignore twist rates and barrel lengths. I have always had a problem with a guy that chops a barrel because it "feels better." Some calibers are OK with that, .45 ACP, etc. But as case capacity gets larger, you need length since even a 50 fps loss can put you in a spiral and 20 bottles of Jack that I could never buy! Most loads go to pot with only 1/2 gr of powder. Never bring a 3" .475 here and expect me to get it to shoot.
I got twisted with a 10" 30-30 pistol but got it to shoot pennies at 100 yards--ONE powder, 4759. Same with the 7BR in 10" and the 10" 7R.
But then I wanted to shoot the 120 gr SSP bullet for deer from the 7's. Twist is wrong for light bullets. Made for steel slammers and I sprayed the light bullets.
I called Hodgdon about Varget, they told me in uncertain terms NO. I said the hell and worked with it. I got the 120 to 1/2" at 50 from both guns. I get 2175 fps from the 7BR. Never checked the 7R.
Give it a try from the 45-70. Crazy, slow powder that I can't explain.

[mcal762]

Loaded 5 test rounds of IMR 4198 39.0gr CCI 200 and 350gr cast boolit.

And 5 test rounds of Unique 17.0gr with CCI 300 and 350fr cast boolit.

My test loads with 16.1gr of Unique and a 405gr cast produced 1150fps out of the BFR, thinking the 350gr might chrono at 1225fps. Hope to do a quick test this evening.

cheers...

[mcal762]

350gr 39.0 gr IMR 4198 load 1230fps 1 1/8" group 1175 ftlbs

350gr 17.0 gr Unique load 1240fps 1 1/2" group 1194 ftlbs

both groups shot off sand bag at 50yds temp 55 degrees.

recoil was very pleasant and not bad....

[Ramjet-SS]

everyone of those loads will run full length of a deer. But keep them coming I enjoy the journey.

[mcal762]

I think the 4198 loads can continue to increase in powder charge and should max out at 45 gr. that should jump the velocity to maybe 1600fps out of a 7.5" barrel.

i don't think going any higher with the unique load is wise based off the highest load that is recommended is 17.5 gr with a 385gr cast boolit.. The load that I fired showed no pressure signs and ejected out of the cylinder easily.


no Dacron used in these loads

Deer season is in now have to find time to load and hunt !!

[44man]

The 350 is a good weight and at the velocity and accuracy being shown will do all you want.
Don't take it too fast if it is hard or it will zip through deer like a hot knife in butter and do little internal damage. I feel the best for a hard boolit is the 1300 fps range.
Before I hunt with mine again I will cast softer noses.

[Cornbread]

I think the 4198 loads can continue to increase in powder charge and should max out at 45 gr. that should jump the velocity to maybe 1600fps out of a 7.5" barrel.


Are you working off published data or just working up from some known point?

I get expansion just fine with air cooled 50/50 on deer so long as I have at least 800ft/lbs of energy at impact, doesn't matter how fast or slow you push it, the energy it has on impact is what will or won't expand it in game. A bigger meplate helps but they still expand just fine even with round or spitzer points if the alloy is soft enough and the energy is there to expand it. I'd love a 1,600fps 350gr load although I would not shoot a hard alloy that fast on deer, it would be devastating with air cooled 50/50. Let us know what kind of accuracy you get at that velocity.

Like you I am deer hunting right now too so I totally get the having limited test time.

[mcal762]

I pulled the Unique data off the "Load book" that has all of the 45-70 loads in it.. its the one thats caliber specific etc... like $8 each

The IMR 4198 data come out of the same book and I did find on the IMR site they had the powder charge going to 50 grain in the lever action load section..
I think that would be pretty brutal to shoot....

this came off their site:

Starting Load Grains47.0
Velocity (ft/s)2,032
Pressure32,500 CUP

Maximum Load
Grains50.0
Velocity (ft/s)2,131
Pressure36,600 CUP

[44man]

Those loads are brutal from a rifle, worst ever recoil was with 4198 but 3031 from a rifle was good.
the revolver is easier then a busted up shoulder. I would hate to shoot my revolver loads from a rifle. Even a .44 Marlin was not that pleasant.

[Cornbread]

I pulled the Unique data off the "Load book" that has all of the 45-70 loads in it.. its the one thats caliber specific etc... like $8 each

The IMR 4198 data come out of the same book and I did find on the IMR site they had the powder charge going to 50 grain in the lever action load section..
I think that would be pretty brutal to shoot....

this came off their site:

Starting Load Grains47.0
Velocity (ft/s)2,032
Pressure32,500 CUP

Maximum Load
Grains50.0
Velocity (ft/s)2,131
Pressure36,600 CUP

Is that the Lyman "Load Data Classic American Calibers" book or the Loadbooks USA "45-70 Government"? I'm looking for more cast loads for 45-70 than what the cast bullet handbook has.

[mcal762]

I know that the 325 FTX with 47.9 of IMR 4198 is pretty brutal.. A even stronger recoil was 45 gr of IMR 4198 with a 405gr cast at 1550fps..... the recoil on those two loads is very strong to say the least... not pleasant to shoot...

[mcal762]

Is that the Lyman "Load Data Classic American Calibers" book or the Loadbooks USA "45-70 Government"? I'm looking for more cast loads for 45-70 than what the cast bullet handbook has.


Loadbooks USA "45-70 Government" Reloading Manual Product #: 694314 loadbooks USA #:45-70

This is off the MidwayUSA site, this is the book that I have, lots of loads in there to look at..

[Cornbread]

Loadbooks USA "45-70 Government" Reloading Manual Product #: 694314 loadbooks USA #:45-70

This is off the MidwayUSA site, this is the book that I have, lots of loads in there to look at..

Thank you! I'll pick up a copy, the cast bullet handbook is kind of weak on lever action level loads for the 45-70 information wise.

[mcal762]

Anyone know of any good loads with AA5744 with 300-405gr boolits...

[Cornbread]

Sorry I have never used that powder at all so I can't help you there but I did fill my doe tag this year with my current load for the 45-70 BFR. One shot dropped it like a hammer at 50-ish yards.

Propellant: 38.5 grain IMR-3031 gives roughly 1250fps from the BFR for me
Bullet: 405 grain 46-405C by Accurate Molds
Alloy: 50:50 COWW & (98:2 range scrap(very soft nearly pure)) air cooled.
Primer: Winchester large rifle
Lube: Carnuba Red, lube only the bottom groove but size entire bullet
Gas check: Gator gas checks for 45 cal rifle.

[Ramjet-SS]

35.0-42.0 Grains of AA5744 355 grain WFN CG. CCI large rifle primer. Higher load is for modern arms only.

I also use use this powder in my 458 SOCOM with cast bullets and it is very accurate.

[mcal762]

What type of accuracy are you getting out of the AA5744 loads in the BFR, I know SR4759 is the "powder" for the BFR but its no longer made can not be found anymore.. the 5744 is very close to the burn rate as 4759, there are all kinds of reports of unburned power with 5744.. who knows? just have to give it a try and see what happens...

[mcal762]

Cornbread.. awesome..

I hope to get a chance to shoot a deer with the BFR this year... my load is 25.0 2400 with a 405gr cast at 1250 fps.. mirrors your load but with a different powder...

[44man]

I did not have good luck with 5744, very dirty too.
With 4759, brass drops as clean as if they just came from the tumbler.

[Ramjet-SS]

Top end loads to have some kernels about the barrel.......so what? you are shooting a rifle cartridge in a revolver. It happens. My thirty thirty does this all the time especially with heavy loads. If you want to see how much powder is burning outside the barrel shoot that bad boy late evening or at night.......yikes......

The load I gave you was shot from my TC Encore rifle barrel it is very accurate and it was consistent from shot to shot very low deviation. As far as being dirty? Well I shoot allot of black powder.......now that's dirty. Try it it just means you can shoot allot more and have fun. It may be great in your gun you will not know until you try it.

I can can absolutely tell you This powder is fantastic in my 458 SOCOM with cast bullets.

Good luck and have fun.

[mcal762]

sounds good hope to load some up this weekend and pull the trigger on a few..I did see that 33.5gr with a 350gr cast bullet was reported to be a very accurate load out of a 1895G so maybe it will work out for the BFR. IMR 4198 leaves unburned powder or powder skeletons in the barrel also but shoots very good in the BFR.. 2400 and blue dot has been the cleanest so far.. Unique is pretty dirty also, burns clean in the barrel but leaves tons of soot on the cylinder etc..

[44man]

The hardest thing ever is to get rifle loads to work in the revolver. I wish more would dump rifle loads instead or cross referencing them.
Go look for revolver 45-70 loads once. You are bald for a reason!

[mcal762]

Tested 37.1 gr AA5744 350gr cast bullet and cci 200 primer. Velocity was 1436fps and 3" group at 50 yds.. Nothing special about the load some unburned powder but nothing too bad.. Have to work on the load some to see if I can get a tighter group out of it...

[mcal762]

Next test load is 33.5 gr of AA5744 350gr cast with cci 200 primer.

[mcal762]

Next test load is 33.5 gr of AA5744 350gr cast with cci 200 primer.

4"@50yds velocity 1280 fps... Not very accurate at all...

Also tested 405gr cast 28.0 gr cci 200 also poor accuracy with 4" group

Any ideas on a load that will produce better accuracy??

This powder isn't as bad as it's made out to be in reference to being dirty and having unburned powder..

[Ramjet-SS]

I did find the velocities are less than published loads. try going down but it may be the gun just not like that powder. My velocities from the 458 SOCOM were significantly less however the accuracy was fantastic. Try going down the ladder.

You might also try different primers. Maybe Mag or different brand like the BR-2 or Federal Match grade. If it does not work then what I said your gun just does not like it.

[44man]

Powders are strange. You would think a burn rate close to what works best would still work but it has never worked that way. Different bulk, coatings and size of grains will vary.

[mcal762]

Yep very strange on how close the burn rates are but the 5744 does not produce good accuracy in the bfr at this point. 2400 and 4198 have proven to be accurate in this pistol so far...

[Ramjet-SS]

yes every gun is story unto itself.......fun trying though.

[44man]

Our loss is a powder that fits. To take a powder as good from us is a crime. Go and bash Hodgdon over it like I have.

[mcal762]

Ran a couple new loads today:

27.0 gr 2400 cci 300 r-p case

1st load 350 gr boolit 1 1/2" 1190 fps
2nd load 405 gr boolit 1/2" 1290fps

both loads has 1.5 gr Dacron to hold powder in place.

not sure why the lower velocity on the 350gr but thats what the chrony said.
Plan on doing another set of test with these loads.

2400 just might be the best powder for the BFR it's proving to be very accurate and consistant.

[mcal762]

Today's test:

405gr 27.0 gr 2400 cci 300 1265 fps gave average 1 1/2" group @ 50yds


350 gr 28.0 gr 2400 cci 300 1257 fps produced barley a 1" (inch) @ 50yds..4 shot group.

both with 1.5gr Dacron.. Burns super clean!!!'

[Ramjet-SS]

Any filler or wad under the gullet help clean the barrel on the way out.

I have have found using filler or wad will increase pressure but back the powder charge slightly and no issues I also have found using a filler or wad that my accuracy improves. Now this is with plain base bullets. I rarely use a filler with any gas check bullets. I have shot low doses of Unique with and without filler I feel albeit very subjective believe the loads with expereince increased accuracy.

I am huge fan of the mid weight (330-355 grain bullets in my big bore guns as the 45-70 and even the 480 Ruger and 475 Linebaugh.

[mcal762]

I've never used fillers until now but have not every used these types of powder in 45-70 either. I haven't used fillers with Unique and its pretty consistent on velocity and accuracy. I'm know that there are factory 45-70 loads that you can buy and hear a lot of powder shake in the case so I'm certain they are not using fillers. 2400 powder has proven to be just about the right burn rate and provides a pretty good velocity in the BFR. I know IMR 4198 can really produce some high velocity loads and low pressures but I find some unburned power.. I don't think it has any impact on accuracy when you shoot the next round.

I know one powder that my BFR does not like is AA5744.. I had high hopes for 5744 but it has dismal results....I'll have to find something else to use it in...

[44man]

You are getting some good accuracy so it is of interest anyway. I am out of 2400 so I can't try it more.
I do use Dacron with 4759 too, proved more accurate. I use garneted fiberfill to get away from those long funny strands.
My friend has the 10" BFR too and ran out of 4759 so He offered a big bottle of Jack for a pound.
Eat your hearts out! :bigsmyl2:
But darn, take the gun hunting now, good enough.

[mcal762]

I've taken "Fat Boy" to the woods a few times this season but still haven't found a deer worth shooting with it at this point.. I hoping to seal the deal before the end of the season...

[Ramjet-SS]

Please post the results this has been a fun journey........

[44man]

Jack is just a super flavor. Just a little sip at a time. WOW, wish I could afford it. But there is a limit to powder I will give up.
I don't feel bad, my friends wife makes more money then he does and he makes 3X more then I did when working and I am on SS now. All he makes is for toys because expenses are paid by his wife. Yet he is hen pecked in the extreme. He comes to shoot but must be home at a certain time.
It is a mad rush as he says he must leave before this time.
I don't hold it against him, he is a great person but in all these years, I never met his wife or children.

[mcal762]

Ran cornbread's load today with 3031 38.5 gr printed 1 1/2"@50yds
velocity was 1025fps...

[Cornbread]

Seems like yours doesn't like that load as much as mine does then, every gun is different for sure. You were using same alloy, mold, lube, gas check etc? or just a 405grn cast bullet over 38.5grn of 3031?

[mcal762]

That was just a standard 405gr cast bullet over 38.5 gr.. It differently has potential, think I'm gonna bump up the charge to see if it tightens up... Thinking about 45 gr on the next test..

[Cornbread]

Definitely post back what happens when you try the next loads with it. I'd like to see where 3031 tightens up at for you, because even though my groups with it at 38.5 are good, I'm never opposed to seeing if something else makes them better.

[mcal762]

will do hope to find a little time this week to load some more test rounds with 3031.. might try 42gr and 44 gr and the 45 gr to see what loads produce the best velocity and groups. all of my loads are being loaded to the .1 of a grain with digital scale.

so far 2400 has been the best powder with the 405gr cast bullet. running 25.0gr 1.5gr Dacron and shot about 20-30 rounds of this load and it consistently produces 1.5" groups at 50yds and a velocity of 1250 fps.

[44man]

will do hope to find a little time this week to load some more test rounds with 3031.. might try 42gr and 44 gr and the 45 gr to see what loads produce the best velocity and groups. all of my loads are being loaded to the .1 of a grain with digital scale.

so far 2400 has been the best powder with the 405gr cast bullet. running 25.0gr 1.5gr Dacron and shot about 20-30 rounds of this load and it consistently produces 1.5" groups at 50yds and a velocity of 1250 fps.
Got your PM's and worked hard for you but my Frontier net has been a huge problem. I must be at one per second and the red light comes on until about 4 or later, I get no E mail or more then half a page loaded here with warnings about a time out or tech problem.
Guy is supposed to come tomorrow or the modem will meet my .50 caliber. I have lost much postings from you and me.

[mcal762]

Did a test load of 45gr of 3031 405gr cast produced 1" @50yds..
velocity was 1280fps! This is a excellent shooting load!

[Cornbread]

Did a test load of 45gr of 3031 405gr cast produced 1" @50yds..
velocity was 1280fps! This is a excellent shooting load!

Sweet! Was that load from published data or just worked up from a lesser load?

[mcal762]

I pulled the load from the IMR reloading page. It's at the bottom of the trapdoor loads.

BULLET WEIGHT405 GR. CAST LFP
ManufacturerIMR
PowderIMR 3031
Bullet Diameter.458"
C.O.L.2.540"
Starting Load
Grains45.5
Velocity (ft/s)1,597
Pressure17,300 CUP
Maximum Load
Grains48.5
Velocity (ft/s)1,706
Pressure21,100 CUP

[Ramjet-SS]

I just got a new Accurate mold for a 550 grain FN GC going to load it to Trapdoor levels in my Encore rifle barrel should be allot of fun.

[mcal762]

I picked up a Lyman 457193 (405 FPPB) mold for my Christmas present to myself...
cast about 100 of those and made some darr lube for them.. Took a lee 457 bullet sizing die and opened it up to .459 and sized my bullets to .459.

loaded a few of my custom cast boolits with 25 gr 2400, Dacron and produced less than 1" at 50yds.... Those boolits shoot better than the one that I ordered..BFR loves them...

[Ramjet-SS]

I will be casting some up I will post a pic once I have some cast and sized nd lubed.

[44man]

I have to try it with the little powder I have left. I should have a Lee 405 around here. I gave my friend my Lyman for his rifle since it could barely make .457".
I also have many BPCR molds I made to try.

[Ramjet-SS]

Cast up 150 boolits this morning. These are gas check so I can shoot them in my 458 SOCOM but I bet they will shoot very well at Springfield velocities in my Encore rifle. I also have a 457 GNR that shoots the same bullet in a 16" Encore barrle with a muzzle brake.

[Ramjet-SS]

It weighs 460 with GC and lube.

156542

[44MAG#1]

Benching a gun is addictive isn't it.

[mcal762]

Wow thats a nice looking slug!!

[Ramjet-SS]

Wow thats a nice looking slug!!

Hopefully it shoots as good as it looks. If I had the BFR in 45-70 I would hope this one would shoot well. Thinking velocity around 1200-1400 FPS from my rifle. So 1000 from the handgun would be good out to 100 yards or so.

[Ramjet-SS]

well loaded 25.0 grains of AA5744 with a CCI Lrg rifle primer. Averaged 1300 FPS with Std dev of 3FPS 2.5" group with open sights standing shooting freehand. This is 26" Barrel. Wow is that thumper of a bullet.

[mcal762]

AA 5744 didn't work in the BFR at all, dirty and not accurate at all.