455 Webley alternative: Am I crazy or could this work?

[bruner1981]

So I have just acquired a Smith and Wesson Second Model MKII 455 Hand Ejector, originally chambered for the 455 Webley but at some point in its life was converted to take 45 ACP on moon clips. I like the ability to use the moon clips so I would like to stay in that ballpark or in the 45 AR area with my loads.

My issue however is that the barrel diameter is larger than the diameter of jacketed 45 acp bullets. I will be reloading and want to step the bullet diameter up slightly. Here's where my train of thought gets interesting.

DISCLAIMER: I already know the risks of trying loads outside of the published load data. I believe that the experimenting is fun and can be done safely when following good practices. I would like the discussion to avoid trying to talk me out of experimenting, but I would like to know if any specific thought I have would be inherently dangerous. These will just be "plinking" rounds, and will be loaded very mildly.

I have found some Hornady swaged bullets, 255 grain, .454" diameter that I think would do the trick. Since one of the intended uses for these bullets are for 45 Colt rounds, it seems like reloading the 45 ACP casings using 45 Colt dies would prevent me from resizing the casings too small to fit the larger bullet. I believe that this would give me some more accurate rounds than the standard .451" jacketed bullets.

So my question to you seasoned reloaders, what do you think of my ideas? Could this work? Do you think trying to use the 45 colt dies would cause issues with the brass? What other ideas do you have? Thank you in advance!

[Dutchman]

I had a Mk6 Webley that was cut. I loaded .45 AutoRim brass with the same Hornady 250 gr .454" "cowboy" sweged bullets. Just load them normal using .45 acp dies. Do it and see what happens.

Dutch

[Jack Stanley]

I once ran into a 45ACP cylinder that was to put it mildly ... huge . The cure for it was to use the Lyman round nose bullet for the 45ACP unsized . In this case the bullet was .456" , cases were deprimed but not sized and the bullet was a slight friction fit . A taper crimp held it in place and worked quite well in the moon clips .

I don't see why it would not work .

Jack

[Outpost75]

In my shaved Webley Mk.IV I use the Saeco #954 230-grain conical flatnosed Cowboy bullet with 4 grains of Bullseye. Bullet drops from the mold as-cast at .455"

144002

[gunwonk]

I have found some Hornady swaged bullets, 255 grain, .454" diameter that I think would do the trick. Since one of the intended uses for these bullets are for 45 Colt rounds, it seems like reloading the 45 ACP casings using 45 Colt dies would prevent me from resizing the casings too small to fit the larger bullet.


I had a Mk6 Webley that was cut. I loaded .45 AutoRim brass with the same Hornady 250 gr .454" "cowboy" sweged bullets. Just load them normal using .45 acp dies. Do it and see what happens.

And if neither idea quite works out, you could try using the .45 ACP resizing die, and then the .45 Colt neck expander.

[Outpost75]

And if neither idea quite works out, you could try using the .45 ACP resizing die, and then the .45 Colt neck expander.

In my shaved Webley I use Lee .455 dies with a .45 ACP shell holder and brass with full moon clips, it works great! DO keep the loads light, as I sheared off the barrel catch screw on mine shooting normal .45 ACP loads in it. Sandy Garrett of NoVA gun Works reamed and threaded the frame and barrel catch to accept an M8 metric bolt and made a stronger replacement screw of larger diameter and better steel than the original. Repair cost as much as I paid for the gun, but it will last another 120 years if I don't do any more stupid things. Keep loads 700 fps or less with 230-grain bullets and you are fine.

[bruner1981]

Thanks for ask the advice guys! I can't wait to try some of it out. Now where's that next paycheck so I can go buy some of that stuff...

[Cowboy_Dan]

This sounds like my .45/.410 revolver. It was made so that the cylinder can be swapped out for one in .45-70 for sales in CA and MD. As such, the groove diameter is .458" and I have found a 230 gr. gallery load boolit which gives it respectable accuracy.

Unfortunately, the 3+" chambers are .480" the whole way down. I have thought about having a heeled mold made for it to fit the cylinder, but I am unsure if stuffing a .480" slug into a .458" hole might be a bad idea.

[bruner1981]

I have thought about having a heeled mold made for it to fit the cylinder, but I am unsure if stuffing a .480" slug into a .458" hole might be a bad idea.

This falls in to my "inherently dangerous" category. That is definitely a bad idea. For your own safety, PLEASE do NOT do that. You would be extremely lucky to walk away from something like that uninjured. That's a difference of .022", which may not seem like much, but speaking from my manufacturing experience as far as press fitting pins into holes (the closest analogy I could think of), that difference in size simply would not work. That extra .022" of material would essentially have to be "shaved" off in order for that to work, and since gun barrels aren't equipped to do that, depending on the size of the forcing cone and the shape of the bullet, my best guess is that the bullet would travel part way out of the cylinder and part way into the forcing cone before getting lodged, leading to the the all the pressure behind the bullet escaping by blowing out the cylinder of the gun. Please don't try this.

After a little more research, those Hornady bullets I mentioned cost a little more than I am used to for boolits. I'm probably going to buy them to test out and see how they perform, and move on to casting from there. That seems to give me a much bigger range of options. I'm going to start looking for a sort of "Getting Started" guide for casting. But in case someone sees this before I can find what I'm looking for, are there any such guides that you would recommend? Something along the lines of everything-you-need-to-know-before-casting? Thanks again everyone!

Edit: I've found a guide that was what I was looking for, and I have to say that I am sold! Rather than buying more bullets with my next paycheck, I'm going to start investing in casting equipment. This should be a good hobby to add on to my reloading hobby. I'm very excited!

[timtheartist]

Hello Bruner1981
If you decide to go with the 45 Auto Rim I think I have a bunch of brass. I'm a relatively new member and don't have my 25 required posts before selling yet so it may be a few days

Timtheartist

[.22-10-45]

The British loaded their .455's with a hollow base..this might be your best bet. Might have to hold velocity down a bit to prevent blowing out skirt.

[kiwi]

I have a S&W 1917 .455 the cylinder has been reamed to .45 Colt and the rear of the cylinder shaved to fit the Colt rim works well with mid loads, I have a MP .455 Webley mould that casts a 265 gr hollow base bullet it is to long for use with Colt cases I have shorted the cases to get the correct OAL .45 Scofield cases would work with out trimming I believe, RCBS made the same .455 Webley mould the Lyman 454190 boolit is a good one to try if the true Webley is had to find, I sell my boolits to a number of Webley shooters they have all commented that they get better accuracy with my boolits than with factory .455 ammo, so it is worth trying the get a mould of the correct design

[Larry Gibson]

I use TC 45 Colt sizers to size 45 ACP cases for .454 bullets w/o any problems. A steel Redding 45 Colt sizer which sizes to the original taper of the 45 Colt might even be better but requires lubing the cases before sizing.

Larry Gibson

[curator]

Loading .45ACP with .455 Webley data (and dies) works mostly OK as far as pressures go. Both my Webleys (MkIV & MkVI) are "shaved" to accept .45AR or .45ACP and half-moon clips. Lead boolit accuracy has been mediocre at best, and leading an issue with standard .454-.455 diameter slugs. Veral Smith suggested I mike the chamber "throats" to see if the boolits are getting sized down before entering the bore. Guess what I found? Yup, chamber throats for my MkIV were .449, the MkVI had throats of ..446-.448! Groove diameter of both Webley barrels is right on at .4549. The reason why the Brits went to hollow base slugs was to allow the bullet to expand after it cleared the purposely tight chamber mouths. These were made this way to allow pressure to build sufficiently using the smokeless powder available to them at that time. I have been reluctant to ream my MkIV since it is a family heirloom, but I did ream the MKVI chamber throats to .455 and got immediate improvement in accuracy and no leading issues whatsoever. Keep in mind that these old military revolvers will not take a steady diet of 20K psi loads.

[skeettx]

http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/173356/rcbs-2-cavity-bullet-mold-45-300-fn-45-caliber-458-diameter-300-grain-flat-nose-gas-check