Contender .357 guidance requested

[wonderwolf]

I have had a fit with a .357 Magnum contender barrel and misfires I obtained last year, it took me awhile but I finally figured out that I can only use A-MERC brass which has a thinner rim of around .047-.050 over other brands some of which tend to be well over .050" thick and give me misfires over and over and maybe one in 10 with a thin enough rim to allow the barrel to lock up properly will go off.

Now, I'm 75% sure its the barrel that has tighter than normal head spacing (at least with my frame, guy who owned it before said it shot very well, no issues.) and nothing is wrong with my frame as I've had a dozen other barrels on that frame and no other issues since I've had it. If I'm reading SAAMI specs right the rims can be between .048" and .059" thick but anything over .051" or so seems to not be sure fire in this barrel.

Right now lathe turning brass is not a option as that is just a work around.

I could also spend a little money and get the barrel checked out by one of the Contender/encore guys, but since head space has nothing to do with the actual gap between the barrel face itself (since its a recessed rim chambering) and my frame I imagine I would have to send my frame in as well to have that specific barrel fitted. And that sounds like at least a $150 job with overnight shipping etc.

Its a blued barrel and my frame is stainless (hint I like matching barrels). I mostly wanted to just see what kind of performance I could get out of the contender with some bullets i'm experimenting with in barrels ranging from 1.5"-18" but so far the 10" barrel is out for .357 tests

I'm considering a custom barrel from someplace like Bullberry or MGM in stainless as it would seem to me the cost of having the frame and barrel fitted (chamber recut slightly most likely) would be dumping money into a blued barrel that is already problematic and turn a $200 barrel into a bullberry or MGM priced stainless barrel.

Soooo what to do?

[ombesb]

Go to Bellm's Tc's Excellent article on headspace. It sounds to me like the recess was not cut deep enough for the rim, but I am not an expert by any shake.

[wonderwolf]

Go to Bellm's Tc's Excellent article on headspace. It sounds to me like the recess was not cut deep enough for the rim, but I am not an expert by any shake.
I've read his articles which is one thing that helped me understand headspace beyond just "barrel gap" that some think it is.

[Gus Youmans]

wonderwolf,

I would not think that insufficient headspace would be a cause for misfires and would look at other things as possible causes. I could see excessive headspace as a possible cause for misfires but not the other way around. The other potential causes could be primer type/brand, primer pocket depth, firing pin protrusion, and hammer spring.

Gus Youmans

[wonderwolf]

wonderwolf,

I would not think that insufficient headspace would be a cause for misfires and would look at other things as possible causes. I could see excessive headspace as a possible cause for misfires but not the other way around. The other potential causes could be primer type/brand, primer pocket depth, firing pin protrusion, and hammer spring.

Gus Youmans

The contender has a safety feature that if not locked up all the way will cause the hammer to fall short and not strike the firing pin. The barrel does indeed latch closed just not all the way because the base is too proud and hitting on my frame but is already fully seated in the barrel. I've checked the barrel rim recess for burrs, built up gunk etc and its all clean.

The other possible causes you cite were considerations as well but I would have issues with other barrels parhaps as well. A-merc brass primed with WIN and CCI have worked 100% in this barrel but if I go to R-P or starline or WIN I get about 90-95% failure to fire.

ETA: At one point I also measured what firing pin protrusion was and it was more than adequate. In fact I made a special firing pin protrusion gauge just for that measurement (basically a piston in a cylinder with a set screw, measure with a mic before and after)

One thing that I do not understand is frame shimming with the contender, bellm eluded to something that the breach face can be shimmed I think? and I'm wondering now after more thought if an adjustment on my frame is just "too tight" and all the other barrels I've had have had head space with enough wiggle room to allow the combined barrel/frame to work as intended.

[blaser.306]

Have you checked the depth of the notch in the locking bolt(s) does it allow the safety interlock to rotate all the way?

[wonderwolf]

Are you talking about the notch where the lugs split apart?

I've swapped the locking bolts and parts to a known to work .223 barrel and those parts swapped between the two guns still allowed the .223 barrel to work correctly and the .38/357 to misfire. But if the parts themselves are not fitted on the barrel correctly you may be on to something.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

Just for kicks loosen you grip screw up see if that helps

[Lonegun1894]

Yall have my attention here...

[44man]

Seems you could call TC and just send the barrel in so they can cut the rim recess deeper.
If I had to use A-Merc brass I would not even shoot. I had some from a friend and every one cracked in the size die.
TC should fix it free and postage for just a barrel would be cheap. They might even send a prepaid box.
My memory is poor about TC's but it seems many barrels would not work on all frames. Frames were plated and not stainless but I do not know what they have done since. I think it was called Armoralloy or some such.
They also had a lot of chamber issues at one time with no two being the same.
Still fantastic guns.

[wonderwolf]

Seems you could call TC and just send the barrel in so they can cut the rim recess deeper.
If I had to use A-Merc brass I would not even shoot. I had some from a friend and every one cracked in the size die.
TC should fix it free and postage for just a barrel would be cheap. They might even send a prepaid box.
My memory is poor about TC's but it seems many barrels would not work on all frames. Frames were plated and not stainless but I do not know what they have done since. I think it was called Armoralloy or some such.
They also had a lot of chamber issues at one time with no two being the same.
Still fantastic guns.

Yeah, the A-Merc brass isn't the best but it has held up so far. Only reason I have kept it is I planned to use it to turn the very thin rims off in the lathe and use the cases as swage jackets for my .375 H&H.

As far as the stainless frame goes TC did make a plated frame that was in fact the "armor alloy". I have come across a few barrels for the armor alloy and you can tell the finish is different from the plating to my frame, also due to the plating the barrel lug does not fit with the normal frame stock pin it has to be reamed out slightly if one wishes to use it in a non "AA" frame from what I hear. I'll see if anybody is alive and kicking at TC that can help with this. thanks .44man

[44man]

I wish the best of luck but TC has been great in the past.
Brass can be a pain and I had a .375 Super mag VA arms. Darn fine gun but WW brass had all kinds of thickness differences so I had to file case heads to let the cylinder turn. I sent the cylinder in and they cut it so all brass would fit. The tough thing was WW made the only .375 brass.

[bhn22]

Is your extractor fully seated in the barrel? Sometimes fouling will build up around it, making the extractor not seat, and that could be causing the case heads protrude a little bit. I'd also try the barrel on a different frame if possible. TC will likely want you to send the whole gun in so they can inspect everything. I have had factory barrels that didn't function fully on every frame I tried them on. This was especially common with newer barrels on older frames.

[Blackwater]

Don't know where your frame has been or what it's been subjected to, but they're slightly famous for folks overloading and stretching the frame, which can cause misfires. You might want to have it checked for that.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

if you load a round does it fit tight does your brass pull out of the chamber easily after you shoot it or is it tight if so take your extractor out and try it i might just be a little bent or have a burr the extractor is just held in by a roll pin don't push it all the way out just enough to take it out if that helps your extractor is bent

[Groo]

Groo here
How old is the frame ?
You might need a new hammer spring.

[wonderwolf]

Groo here
How old is the frame ?
You might need a new hammer spring.

Frame is stainless so its as least as old as whenever they introduced the stainless frame. That was my first thought as well but seeing as how I get 100% ignition on all of my other barrels I ruled that out, along with firing pin protrusion being a possible cause. The safety feature of the TC contender is what is causing the FTF, if the frame to barrel lock up isn't 100% then the block wont work as designed and you will have a misfire, keeping the barrel from damaging the frame/lock and ones face.

[kenyerian]

Many times barrel lockup problems can be solved by polishing the locking Bolts. make sure that there is no oil or gunk in frame. Also LuckyDawg gave some good advice to check the grip screw.

[475BH]

How much force do you use when you close it. Do you just close it gently and hear a click?
Or do you close it with a snap? I have barrels that can be, and need closing either way. Some are just a lil tighter than others. It doesn't hurt them if they need that little snap. Just don't abuse them.

[Tatume]

If the barrel was mine I would not hesitate to write to Mike Bellm and ask his advice. mike@bellmtcs.com

[44man]

It has been many, many years since I shot IHMSA with a 30-30 TC so my memory is rusty but it seems if I did not snap the gun closed I could not cock the hammer. I sure do not remember if it cocked and just would not fire but it made it hard to get 5 shots in 2 minutes. Had to open the gun and snap it shut again.
I need you to refresh my memory.

[Tatume]

Having to snap the gun closed is a sign that the case shoulders should be pushed back just a tiny bit more. People say that setting the sizing die so that the gun must be snapped shut makes the brass last longer because it is not worked as much. However, the brass is being worked in the process of snapping the gun closed too. If the sizing die is adjusted to just set the shoulder enough to close the gun without snapping it shut, then the brass is worked exactly the same amount, and the gun is much easier to operate. This is how I set my dies for bottlenecked cartridges, and I have not had a single one fail because of overworking the brass.

[44man]

I full length sized but it seems I would have a problem even without a case in the gun. That silly flipper thing in there needed worked on. It would not turn just closing the gun.

[Larry Gibson]

wonderwolf

If your TC works fine with all the other barrels but misfires with the 357 in is 99% because the locking lugs of the 357 barrel are not engaging deep enough. The remedy is to polish the bottom of the locking lug assembly slightly so it can engage in further. The area to be polished with a fine stone (not a file because it doesn't take much) is the bottom flat where it rides in the barrel.

Take a black magic marker and cover the locking lug surface on a barrel that works fine. Let it dry and then open and close several times in your frame. You will see how much the lugs engage by the scraped marks in the ink. Then do the same with the 357 barrel. I'll bet the amount of engagement is half or less. Stone the bottom flat until the lugs engage as much as the barrels that do not misfire. That should cure the problem. It will take several times of assembly and disassembly as you want to go slow and not stone too much. It's not difficult to do.

I have done the above with every new Contender barrel I have gotten and since have not had a single one miss fire from a mechanical reason of the gun.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

Good advise.

[wonderwolf]

My trigger is set too light to snap it sharply, sear trips if you do. I'll take another look at the lugs this weekend. I'm thinking though that since the barrel will dry fire just fine (firing pin falls away as it should) when not loaded but misfire when loaded that its head-space since the case can control that factor. nothing is ever simple.

If I were to go with an after market stainless barrel what would you contender guys recommend?

[brasshog]

I've never had a problem with the 357 mag barrel (sold it long ago) but let me offer this advice. Do you mic your primer seating depth ? I use a Ram Prime Die for all of my primers after I ream them and debur the flash hole. Is it possible that the Amerc brass is allowing fully seated primers whereas the other brass allows for momentum loss when striking due to an incomplete/improper seating depth ? Add in a weakened, homemade trigger job, short/worn firing pin and it will make that condition worse or perhaps more sensitive to shallow primers. Just an idea.

[30calflash]

Not that this helps your circumstance, but I vaguely recall TC stating that the SS barrels/frames do not interchange on standard non SS frames/barrels. This was from 30 years ago IIRC.

Not sure if it's different equipment that they were made on or specs or whatever.

[wonderwolf]

Not that this helps your circumstance, but I vaguely recall TC stating that the SS barrels/frames do not interchange on standard non SS frames/barrels. This was from 30 years ago IIRC.

Not sure if it's different equipment that they were made on or specs or whatever.

Armor alloy may have been the specific issue you are referring to, they chromed or something normal barrels and frames and the extra thickness caused compatibility issues with unmodified barrels/frames

[marshall623]

To make sure it is the locking lugs and to rule out the rim recess , take the barrel off and drop in the brass and see if any stick up above the end of the chamber ( make sure they are flush or slightly below the end of the barrel ) . I would give that a try.

[Geraldo]

My trigger is set too light to snap it sharply, sear trips if you do. I'll take another look at the lugs this weekend. I'm thinking though that since the barrel will dry fire just fine (firing pin falls away as it should) when not loaded but misfire when loaded that its head-space since the case can control that factor. nothing is ever simple.

If I were to go with an after market stainless barrel what would you contender guys recommend?

I have both Bulberry and MGM barrels for Contenders and Encores. I don't think I could recommend one over the other.