Saving Money on Dies?

[guywitha3006]

Is it possible to use the core seat/swage from similar die sets so you only need a new point form die? I currently have a 9mm set (.355") and was thinking about adding .357 set? Makes adding calibers a little less painful. Also, if that works a list of other similar calibers would be great.


Thanks,
Guywitha3006

[midnight]

Any core swage die will work for you as long as the diameter core it produces fits in your jacket. I use a core swage die from a 284 set to make .237 cores for 30 cal copper tubing jackets. The core seat die is a little more specific. If it produces a seated core that is no more than 0.001 smaller than the bullet your point form die produces, it will work fine although I have made 0.452 bullets from .429 seated cores with no problem. I used the 44 cal half jackets because that's all I had at the time and I wanted to make use of them. I adjusted the weight of the 45 ACP bullet til the jacket came juuust up to the shoulder so their was no exposed lead to touch the bore.

Bob

[guywitha3006]

Any core swage die will work for you as long as the diameter core it produces fits in your jacket. I use a core swage die from a 284 set to make .237 cores for 30 cal copper tubing jackets. The core seat die is a little more specific. If it produces a seated core that is no more than 0.001 smaller than the bullet your point form die produces, it will work fine although I have made 0.452 bullets from .429 seated cores with no problem. I used the 44 cal half jackets because that's all I had at the time and I wanted to make use of them. I adjusted the weight of the 45 ACP bullet til the jacket came juuust up to the shoulder so their was no exposed lead to touch the bore.

Bob


Thanks that is what I was hoping. Shouldn't be to big of jump from .355 to .357/8. I planned on using the .355" jackets anyways. Are the core seat and swage typically combined in a two die set?

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Just like reloading dies swage dies can be purchased individually. True swage die sets (made for real swage presses) are normally 3 die sets... core swage, core seat, and point form. When you get into boat tails or rebated boat tail designs it can add extra dies and punches.

[tiger762]

Negative. A 2-die set includes core seat and point form. You're on your own as far as supplying a suitable diameter/weight core.

To your original question, I bought a 510 die set that didn't have a core swage, but I was using my 45cal core swage (0.418") which works fine. Since then I bought a 550 set that includes a core swage (0.445") which I can also use for thinner jacket 50cal.



Thanks that is what I was hoping. Shouldn't be to big of jump from .355 to .357/8. I planned on using the .355" jackets anyways. Are the core seat and swage typically combined in a two die set?

[guywitha3006]

Illinois: Right now I am playing CH4D 9 and 45 dies, so no core swage. I don't think it should be an issue for pistol plinking ammo. I am using .32 caliber lee cast bullets as cores (for 9mm) for now I plan to get a .40 caliber mold, for 45, when I figure out what weight I want. All the core seating die does, for lack of a better term, is smash the lead into the jacket? While a core swage die would make a nice uniform weight core? On a curiosity note, is the core seat step necessary for pistol? I ask because BTSniper's one step die comes to mind, I do not have one but I would guess it is just a point form die?

Tiger: I am still waiting on my Walnut Hill, just playing with a Rock Chucker at the moment. I have a 30 caliber set of dies ordered from RCE that I will pay closer attention to getting exact weight or close to, but but most of my pistols shoot better then me as it is.


Just like reloading dies swage dies can be purchased individually. True swage die sets (made for real swage presses) are normally 3 die sets... core swage, core seat, and point form. When you get into boat tails or rebated boat tail designs it can add extra dies and punches.

[tiger762]

All the core seating die does, for lack of a better term, is smash the lead into the jacket? While a core swage die would make a nice uniform weight core?

Exactly.


Tiger: I am still waiting on my Walnut Hill, just playing with a Rock Chucker at the moment. I have a 30 caliber set of dies ordered from RCE that I will pay closer attention to getting exact weight or close to, but but most of my pistols shoot better then me as it is.

OK, keep in mind that the compound leverage presses that we use, are not constant pressure, but rather, constant volume. What this means is that once you set the core seat die and lock it in, it really needs to be fed cores that are uniform in volume. A little too light, and there will be insufficient swelling of the jacket. Too much volume, and the ram will not be able to reach top-dead-center. If we were all using hydraulic presses, with up/down buttons, then the core weight/volume is less critical. The servo would compress the lead until a certain pressure is obtained until the relief valve opens and fluid is shunted back to the reservoir.

So the core swage is not just to have identical weight bullets but so that the resistance felt by bringing the ram up, will be consistent. Now I admit sometimes I leave the core swage die loose. I weigh every jacket+core. I'll tweak the die in or out to achieve a desired reduction in weight. For the core seat and point form, I'll lock them down.

[guywitha3006]

So the core swage is not just to have identical weight bullets but so that the resistance felt by bringing the ram up, will be consistent. Now I admit sometimes I leave the core swage die loose. I weigh every jacket+core. I'll tweak the die in or out to achieve a desired reduction in weight. For the core seat and point form, I'll lock them down.

Thanks for the clarification its nice to understand the mechanics behind it. If I am using the boolits from the same mold would the volume be almost identical (assuming a proper filled out bullet), then the case/jacket would be the variable?

[tiger762]

You can get away with a few percent variability. A nominal 147gr cast 9mm used as a core could probably be between 146-148 and you'd be fine. One way to visualize it is to picture the volume inside the core seat die with the ram all the way up. The jacket will occupy some of that volume. The lead will be the majority volume. If you're using brass casings as jackets, that throws another variable in the mix. Even if you sort by headstamp. You'd have to sort by manufacturer/plant/date. I will sometimes also leave the core seat die loose (back the nut out a few turns) and will adjust by hand the die if I feel that the one I just seated wasn't compressed enough. When swaging 223 from 22LR, I plan on not having the core seat die locked down. Federal brass is thicker walled, so the lead that's being compressed inside it will need the die to allow for more volume.

I'm delighted to see a new swaging enthusiast. Ask any questions you have. I love talking about this stuff :D


Thanks for the clarification its nice to understand the mechanics behind it. If I am using the boolits from the same mold would the volume be almost identical (assuming a proper filled out bullet), then the case/jacket would be the variable?

[guywitha3006]

I'm delighted to see a new swaging enthusiast. Ask any questions you have. I love talking about this stuff :D

Tiger I appreciate all the help, I love shooting, I love reloading and casting, and this is one more step to the process. I do plan on using as much cartridge bras for cases as possible purely from a cost standpoint. I figure I can make 1000 9mm bullets for $30-40 vs commercial jackets put me closer to $100 per thousand. For me I don't mind the labor portion of it, doing anything reloading/shooting related is relaxing and better than any tv time. The thing that is killing me (besides start up cost) is the waiting for everything. I am used to being able to order something on Monday and see it Friday, with everything in swaging being some level of custom machining for the most part, that is not the case. Although it is a lot harder to "impulse buy" equipment this way.

Is there any benefit to annealing the brass with the lead core in it such as in a dutch oven for target pistol ammo? I have seen a few people mention it in regard to doing it for bonded bullets and that makes sense.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Target pistol ammo....don't waste your time bonding cores.

[tiger762]

Not really. It will take a LOT longer to get the brass up to temperature. I've thought about adding scrap lead chunks to a jacket until the two weigh what I want the finished product to come out to. That way, I anneal and cast the core all in one step. This is for 50cal (and bigger) where there is not an easy/cheap way to make cast cores. If you already have the cores made up, then I would anneal the brass empty so that it will be a lot quicker and you avoid the danger of having a whole bunch of tiny little cups of molten lead, ready to spill over. As ICH said, there's no benefit with target/pistol rounds anyway.



Is there any benefit to annealing the brass with the lead core in it such as in a dutch oven for target pistol ammo? I have seen a few people mention it in regard to doing it for bonded bullets and that makes sense.