The New Marlin's Tight Barrel

[ChristopherO]

I recently acquired a 1895 Cowboy Action in 45/70. After lapping the barrel to smooth it up I ran a slug down the barrel. My micrometer is packed away so I measured it with a friend's digital caliper and was surprised when it read .4575. Hmmm, I keep reading Marlin bores their rifles a bit over instead of under. I'm wonder if the new Marlins are being built with tighter bores than earlier guns. Anyone else experiencing this?
Been expecting to need a .459 or .460 mold but that may not be the case, now. Guess those Lee molds may not be too small after all.
Any experienced input is welcome.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I'd go back and check that number with a micrometer.

A digital caliper is not accurate enough to get repeatable measurements down to .0005 and especially from one you don't know the calibration of.

No matter what anyone says.

Randy

[runfiverun]

you bought the cowboy not the regular
they put decent barrels on the cowboy ones [with rifling] and charge you accordingly.

[dubber123]

The barrel on my 1895 Cowboy looked like a set of old railroad tracks. A good firelapping fixed that. I don't know what the bore runs actually, but I do know the huge chamber swallows rounds loaded with .462" boolits with ease, and shots them pretty well.

[scottfire1957]

Load something and shoot it. Report back, then get better answers. Shoot factory or handloads, then ask.

[ChristopherO]

The micrometer says the same thing as the calipers, .4575 runs average. The widest point did not reach .458.
Suppose this is not a sloppy bore. I may slug it once more to be sure but am pretty confident this is accurate.

Dubber123, I understand your railroad comment. Running the lap rod back and forth allowed me to feel how rough this new barrel was fresh from the factory. I have high hopes for this rifle now, though.

[scottfire1957]

Have you fired any rounds in this rifle, or are you worrying yourself over loading a round yet to be fired?

Shoot a factory standard load, see what it does, and go from there.

[ChristopherO]

Yep, waste of time replying to this thread.

[TXGunNut]

Yep, waste of time replying to this thread.

I disagree. Looking forward to the range report.

[Gtek]

New Haven, North Haven, Poo Haven (Remlin), vintage? You may very well have a .456" due to the bean counters told them not to replace button until .455".
On the upside, look at all the possible molds and if real may be a blessing after a little work.

[scottfire1957]

Yep, waste of time replying to this thread.

Far as I can tell, you've put nothing down the barrel. So, yeah.

DO SOMETHING. Tell us what is good and/or bad.

[waksupi]

Yep, waste of time replying to this thread.


Must be a post count builder.

[scottfire1957]

Yep, waste of time replying to this thread.

I HAVE to ask. You've been a member of this site since '06. What are you wanting to know?

[ChristopherO]

Now that I am on a keypad instead of a smart phone I'll give an answer. TxGunNut, thanks. When I choose to take the rifle to the farm and shoot I'll try to keep you in the loop.
As far as being a member since 2006, yes, that is about the time I took up traditional archery and not too long afterwards crafting Indian self and laminated recurve bows. A fantastic pursuit that eclipsed the rifles in that period. I'm not so immature as to need to up my post count. I've wasted enough time on the internet over the years for that nonsense.

Who here enjoys someone they don't know telling them what they ought to do in a condescending manner? Any raised hands out there? I didn't think so. I'll shoot my rifle when I am ready to shoot my rifle with out the need for a stranger insisting that I shoot my rifle. When I was a younger man without any patience I would instantly purchase ammo and shoot a new to me rifle as fast as I could. These days the getting there is much more satisfying than just wasting bullets or boolets to prove they will travel down the barrel. It's been many years since I've purchased a new rifle because the ones I had held my attention. Now that Ohio allows straight walled cartridges to be used for deer hunting an 45/70 sounded like a fun new acquisition to pursue. As I did with new rifles in the past the first task is/was to slick up the action, lap the barrel, give it a trigger job, fit the buttstock to fit, etc., before even chambering a round. I've got the time and inclination to wait. It allows me to get to know my rifle better and how it functions. Then, when I am ready, I'll go fire it at target for accuracy off the bench.
This being a cast boolit forum I expected those participating to have read the stickies posted that explain these procedures and how they assist in getting the best out of their firearm. Simply firing a bullet down range does nothing to interest me or any benefit the rifle, since I hand lap anyway. I'll stick to the proven steps for accuracy, of which one of those is slugging the bore to see what size mold would be the best fit. Again, a little research on this site shows that mold size to bore size is imperative to wringing out the most accuracy. Originally stated above having read that Marlin makes oversized bores I was intrigued to see this particular cowboy action barrel was not in that camp. With this said my comment above " I'm wondering if the new Marlins are being built with tighter bores than earlier guns." is also my question. I figured those educated in Marlin, mainly the Remlin rifles may have experienced this, as well. If not, fine. If my posts aren't to your liking then kindly pass them by. Live is too short to belittle and make snide comments. If you have productive comments I look forward to discussing them with you.
Cheers

[Yodogsandman]

+1 CriistopherO!

[murf205]

ChristopherO, it's amazing what somebody will type on a keyboard that they would never say to you FACE TO FACE. Good luck on your 45/70 Cowboy, I love mine.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have one too,,, Marlin's tolerance on .45-70 barrels is .458 +/- .002,,, so your barrel is right in there.

Boolits with noses like the RCBS .45-300 and .45-405 and .45-500 will work and feed just fine. There are plenty of moulds out there that have nose profiles like this and pretty much all of them will deliver every bit of accuracy that is needed or possible from a gun like this.

Good luck on your quest.

Randy

[scottfire1957]

I had no intention to sound condescending.

I my humble opinion, you simply failed to set a baseline of accuracy for your rifle before you started changing things. From your original post, I took you lapped the bore before you fired the rifle, therefore, no baseline data to see followup improvements or lessening of improvements with each change.

As I, and I'm sure you've read here and other places, you change one thing at a time in the search for improvement. You're rifle may have been sub MOA before the bore lapping.

If I misinterperated your post, I apologize. But I always shoot first, and change AS NEEDED.

It would be a shame that you took a rifle that shot perfectly as wanted, and ended up with a rifle you couldn't wait to get rid of.

I'll leave it to you. Good luck.

[murf205]

I have one too,,, Marlin's tolerance on .45-70 barrels is .458 +/- .002,,, so your barrel is right in there.

Boolits with noses like the RCBS .45-300 and .45-405 and .45-500 will work and feed just fine. There are plenty of moulds out there that have nose profiles like this and pretty much all of them will deliver every bit of accuracy that is needed or possible from a gun like this.

Good luck on your quest.

Randy

ChristopherO, I have a 405C mold from Accurate Molds that shoots really well in my Marlin CB. Mine slugs right on at .458 and .459 boolits are just right for mine. Tom at Accurate does beautiful work and when you find your diameter, a custom mold is a really nice addition to your set up. I have never tried any boolits @ .460 because the rifle shoots so good with .459's. Again, good luck and remember, this site is full of good advise from some of the best people in the business. I would be hard pressed to find the kind of knowledge some of these guys have anywhere else.
Murf

[dondiego]

I had no intention to sound condescending.

I my humble opinion, you simply failed to set a baseline of accuracy for your rifle before you started changing things. From your original post, I took you lapped the bore before you fired the rifle, therefore, no baseline data to see followup improvements or lessening of improvements with each change.




As I, and I'm sure you've read here and other places, you change one thing at a time in the search for improvement. You're rifle may have been sub MOA before the bore lapping.

If I misinterperated your post, I apologize. But I always shoot first, and change AS NEEDED.

It would be a shame that you took a rifle that shot perfectly as wanted, and ended up with a rifle you couldn't wait to get rid of.

I'll leave it to you. Good luck.

I agree here. You need to shoot it to determine what it is going to do.

[NSB]

Without a baseline in just about anything you do you're just taking a "shotgun" approach and will never know the benefit or loss of your efforts. That's QC 101. If you're lucky you won't have taken anything away. Kind of a variant of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I worked as a Quality Engineer for almost forty years and have an inkling of how to start evaluating a process, and this is a process. If you don't know where you are, how do you know where you want to go? If you got it for Ohio deer hunting, and if it should shoot moa out of the box (probably not with a lever gun), what are you trying to accomplish? I wouldn't criticize those who posted things you don't agree with. There just might be a grain of help in those posts. Hope you get it shooting to your satisfaction. Good luck.

[leadman]

I see nothing wrong with the OP doing what he did. He now knows that his action is smoother, that the barrel was rough and after lapping it is smoother. He knows the bore size and now can pick out the boolit he wants to try in it. This also gave him the opportunity to inspect for any safety issues and become familiar with the operation of the rifle.

I haven't bought a new rifle in about 8 years but have bought a few mil-surp rifles. I basically do the same thing to these guns that also allow me to inspect them for safety.

[NSB]

Nothing wrong with what he did. If it were me, I'd want to know if my efforts made any difference.

[mdi]

Yep, waste of time replying to this thread.
Well, next time you post something, let us know you don't want any input, then we won't waste our time...

[ChristopherO]

I appreciate all your posts, gentlemen, and that you have made it worth my time to continue this thread. My background started as a varmint hunter in the soybean fields. I'm not half as anal as some of those folks but I did pick up on various aspects of accuracy improvements over the years from the various gunsmiths that cater to that segment of the shooting sports. One of those is to lap the barrels, just like the top competitors do with their high end barrels. It hasn't hurt any of my rifles to date, but I am careful. As rough of a bore this rifle had it was needed. Plus, another suggestion I read on this board is to shoot a couple hundred jacketed bullets through the tube before running cast boolits in it or leading can be an issue. I've practiced the tedious break in methods over the years. Lapping does the same thing without the expense and time at the range. Plus I can feel the bore smoothing out. This is something that firelapping doesn't allow, though many speak highly of it.
I understand where some of you are coming from in your comments and thank you for your concern and appreciate your friendly replies to my longer explanation, above. I'm comfortable with what I've done and if I have messed this rifle up I only have my self to blame but you've done a good job of warning me.
Now it is time to pick out a mold and conduct some load work up. I'll look up those RCBS'. Thanks for the tip.
All the best,
Christopher

By the way, mdi, the LORD bless you and keep you, the LORD make His face shine upon you, and give you peace.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Just to add to the "rework it before firing it." discussion:

My 1895 CB needed so much action work it was pathetic. I had 6 hours in that action and I can usually do a Marlin in 2. I even had to break all the edges on lever as it was so sharp it would cut you, and was surely a product of Marlins using up existing parts stocks before Remington took over, and not really caring what went out the door. That"s why they were failing. People working there no longer cared about the product.

However I did nothing to the barrel as it looked pretty good. Had it been bad I probably would have ran 50 or so jacketed bullets down it with frequent cleaning to break it in so to speak. If I actually knew how and was set up to do barrel lapping I wouldn't have hesitated to lap this barrel before firing it. It's simply a finishing touch that manufacturers don't do because it takes extra manpower and time to do. I have seen Remington's Custom Shop guys lapping a barrel on TV so I know they can do it, but they aren't going to do it to thousands of guns simply because of the costs involved.

Kind of like Deburring the parts in the action! I have reworked every Marlin I own (4 ea.) and about 6 others for friends. It takes me about 2 hours to deburr all the parts and tweak the springs and get everything working smoothly. Generic guns don't get this type of individual treatment as a matter of economics. They are built to a price point, and if you want them nicer you are free to make them that way.

We call this "Value Added" and Marlin's are some of the best "Blank Canvas's" to work on out there. They are relatively inexpensive and good guns to learn on. They also respond very well to simple TLC. And especially to refinishing of the wood which usually is a insult to "Fence Post Grade."

I think what the OP did was just fine as what he did is what I would normally do, however when it comes to shooting you definitely need the "change one thing at a time" system of development.

I think he will be fine, he is obviously a detail oriented person.

Craftsmanship is defined as " Personal Responsibility, and Attention to Detail." I have found that these two items are in fact the key to success when it comes to doing most anything.

Randy

[mdi]

By the way, mdi, the LORD bless you and keep you, the LORD make His face shine upon you, and give you peace.[/QUOTE]
And to you too, brother...:bigsmyl2:

[dubber123]

Even with a tight bore, don't overlook trying "fat" boolits. I feel that the centering effect they have in large chambers like the one in my 1895 CB makes it worthwhile to explore.

[TXGunNut]

Welcome back, ChristopherO. I've noticed more than a few early members coming back and I won't be misled by a low post count. Folks who think my higher post count is an indicator of superior CB knowledge are in for a surprise, lol.
Back to the subject at hand I use a similar approach when on unfamiliar ground. I'll study the gun for awhile, learn the history of the rifle and the cartridge and study the loading manuals, especially those that discuss the cartridge a bit before listing load data. Then I'll poke around here and on the web (funny how so many queries lead back here, sometimes to my own posts, lol). I can learn more from a simple question here than I can with a few pounds of powder and more than a few range trips.
Prime example: I took a 375 BB 94 off the back row (safe queen territory) of my safe after doing a bit of reading and mould research and with the help of a thread on this cartridge I took it to the range with a new receiver sight and a "try" load and came home with a rifle sighted in for a "keeper" load. Therein lies the downfall. Sometimes if you do a good job on the research aspect you miss out on all the trial and error some folks enjoy.
Please remember that even the folks that may seem at first to be detractors are actually quite interested in your project, just anxious to see your results....just as I am.

[Digital Dan]

Chris O., did you remove the barrel before lapping the bore or do it from the muzzle?

[stubbicatt]

Yep, waste of time replying to this thread.

And yet... you did! LOL!

[ChristopherO]

Kudo's, TexGunNut. I'll keep your words of encouragement in mind.

Digital Dan,
I lapped from the muzzle using a dewey coated cleaning rod to protect the crown. I prefer to accomplish this work from the chamber end but with this type of receiver I elected not to.

Yep, Stubbicatt, I did. But with everyone's generous replies I'd be remiss if I didn't.
All the best,
ChristopherO

[Wayne Smith]

Christopher, you write very well, too. I have read Robert's description of barrel lapping with a lead slug. Would you be willing to post your process? Inquiring minds, you know.

[ChristopherO]

Hello Wayne,
With a bolt action rifle I take out the bolt and push a coated cleaning rod with jag into the barrel from the chamber end. Before this, though, about 1.5" down on the cleaning jag a string is wound around to create a tight seal to prevent the molten lead from getting past the jag. With the jag recessed back from the crown about an inch then soft lead is poured into the barrel from the muzzle end to create the lap that will harden around the brass cleaning jag in short order. Another thing that is helpful is to measure the barrel and action lenth and put a piece of tape on the rod at the right place that lets you know how far to push the rod toward the muzzle crown without pushing it all the way out. If you can clamp a stop board behind the action where it helps prevent the rod from over traveling, allowing the lap from becoming dislodged in the chamber, your money ahead, too.
Once the lap is hard and ready carefully push a majority portion of it out of the muzzle end, but not all of it. Keep a section engaged in the rifling because it is difficult to realign the lap if it comes all the way out. Apply the abrasive of choice, I use clover compound found in auto parts stores used for lapping engine valves, and slowly run the lap back and forth the length of the barrel to knock off sharp edges and smooth out machine chatter marks on the lands and grooves. No need to over do it but you will feel the barrel smoothing out after awhile. Plus, the lap will wear down, too, causing it to become easier to push/pull. Occasionally reapply the abrasive when necessary. The goal is not to oversize the bore but to smooth what is there. I'm not going to tell you how many strokes to use but will leave that up to you to research or discover.
Make sure your bore and action are thoroughly clean of the abrasive before reassembly. I use auto brake parts cleaner generously to ensure this is done well.

On the Marlin Cowboy Action I did things differently. I suppose if I really wanted to I could have done it the method described above with the bolt out but I am not set up for lead melting at this point, as I was years ago. That will come as I get closer to reloading. Different house from those days, still unpacking, only one thing at a time. Looking through my wares I spotted a little package of 45 caliber soft lead muzzleloader bullets. I only have 50 caliber MZ's but it was nice to happen to have these around for this purpose. I gave the slug a couple of whacks on the nose to fatten it out to more than fit the rifling tight. Drilling out a hole in the base of the bullet allowed me to screw my cleaning rod into the bullet. Whala, a lap! Lathered up the lubrication groves with clover compound, it was popped into the rifling at the muzzle and I commenced to feel the grit working against a pretty rough barrel. It wasn't rough the whole way but in sections more so than others.
My rod is coated to prevent wear at the crown, though it did not touch the crown, and I stopped the lap just at the muzzle on the return stroke to prevent any uneven wear there. Once the push/pull motion was consistently smooth I stopped and cleaned everything up squeaky clean. I don't expect it to be as a glass surface as the match grade shooter would work for. I do expect it to be smoother and free of burrs and overly sharp corners that grab copper and lead off the bullets as they travel down the barrel.
Hope this helps,
ChristopherO

[W.R.Buchanan]

Good write up and I will be trying this soon on several old military guns I have with relatively new barrels.

Randy

[goofyoldfart]

ChrisO: that was a very interesting write up. I have done it in other ways, but that is a simplistic way that appeals. Thank you. God Bless to you and yours and to all and theirs.

Goofy aka Godfrey the Goofyoldfart.[smilie=s:

[castalott]

As a short aside, the last new Marlin 45-70 I looked down the bore at was a disaster. The rifling 1/2 way down the bore just disappeared on one side of the bore. I think it was a 'new' old Marlin Bitsa (bits of this and bits of that as the English are prone to say).

Now don't blame all Marlin levers..... this one example is the only one I've seen that way. I have a new Remington one (30-30) that looks really good in every way...

[foxtrapper]

I sent my 2006 vintage 1895 cowboy to Dave Clements . The throat was too short to use the 460 cast performance that worked so well in my 1895 SS. Posted is the work order ,the basic upgrade adressed the throat and while he had it I asked to have the bore slugged. You can see it micc. @.456 ! I loaded up the cast performance that I had that are sized .459 ,they were very accurate . Load em and shoot em. :-)pphttp://i806.photobucket.com/albums/yy345/smackythefrog/d66789890e9ac37165da1ab890122eed.jpg

[ChristopherO]

Wow, that's tight! Thanks for sharing this information. I'm about ready to order a mold and this gives me peace of mind to know such a tight bore shoots larger boolits so well.