Fix the NEF single shot Rifles.

[Lumpie]

If you own one of these misfits, and want to FIX the problem. This is the best way. The people that make these rifles, can't conjugate verbs,let alone guns. You manufacture rifles with barrels with saami specs for the chamber to shoot .375 bullets. Then you make the barrels .379-.380 bore size. Quite a work of art? Next thing, is where are you going to get the bullets, and moulds? Then there are those that firelap these barrels to endevor to make them shoot. The theory here is big is better! Now for the fix! There is a Gunsmith-Tool&die maker in Oklahoma This is his calling. You take off the barrel, and package it up ready to ship. You call him at (405) 635-0101 Ask for Tom Chase. He owns his own engineering company. He will tell you what to do. Carl Ps. I have one in 38-55, and one in 45-100 2.6, that he worked over for me. If you are skeptical? Just don't Call.

[NoDakJak]

My hunting partner purchased one of these 38-55 clunkers a couple of months ago. The bore was so much larger than the throat that he sent it back to the factory and demanded his money back. They offered him another rifle instead. he had a choice of 45-70 or 45 LC and he chose the last. He came over today with a sad face. He purchased a box each of Winchester and MagTech ammo and was shooting eight to nine inch groups at fifty yards with iron sights. I slugged the bore and found that it was .453 at the breech and somewhat looser further forward. I did not have any .454 bullets left and didn't have a 454 sizer die. The only unsized boolits that I had were several thousand Hensley & Gibbs #130 that weighed approximately 210 grains when cast of ww alloy and air cooled. I have had this mold almost forty years and had never miked the boolits. Holey Mackerel! They dropped at 456 to 457. We lubed them in LLA (Nasty Crap) and speeded the drying with a hair drier. Corked them up over 6.5 grains of Red Dot, along with WLR primers. Yowza! Garth fired a number of three shot groups at twenty five yards because the wind was so bad. The largest group was slightly under one inch and a couple of them were clover leafs. Amazing! He had been ready to trash the rifle. Wasn't able to crono the loads but they should be somewhere around 900 to 1,000 fps. He has found his Turkey and Small Game load but a world of experimentation awaits. Don't give up on the Handi-Guns just yet! Neil

[jhrosier]

When people accept substandard goods, that is exactly what they will get.
If everyone who got a gun with an out of spec barrel would send it back for replacement, the gun companies would adjust their QC procedures to eliminate the problem.
The key here, is to make it their problem.:twisted:
Barrel making today is more science than art and any barrel maker worth the name can easily hold half-thou tolerances.

Jack

[LazyJW]

A buddy has a Rossi single shot 45 LC/410 chamber. Factory 45 ammo wouldn't even make a decent shotgun pattern. The chamber LONG and loose. We tried several bullets with no improvement, finally tried a Lee 45 Minie bullet; success!

It still leads somewhat from the abrupt start of the rifling tearing lead off the bullet, but it at least gives decent hunting accuracy.
Joe

[Junior1942]

This group is from my 22" barrel 45-70 Handi-Rifle with peep sights. Yours might be a "clunker" but mine isn't!

http://www.castbullet.com/shooting/photos/187108.jpg

[James C. Snodgrass]

I had one in 223 and it was accurate for 15 or 20 shots but it fouled so badly after that it would require a thorough cleaning with JB's , I tried to clean with easier things like Butchs bore shine but it was to time consuming. I sold to a friend that keeps it on his tractor and he has killed several coyotes with it but that's all he shoots . And the constant cleaning doesn't bug him. James

[garandsrus]

I have a Handi in .204 Ruger and .223, along with some different calibers, and they don't foul much at all. After quite a few rounds (over 100) I only got a little carbon out and very little copper.

John

[EMC45]

I have one in 45-70 and .223 and have recently debated getting a 44mag barrel for the .223. Well as I posted elsewhere and as Lumpie said the tolerances are way out!!! I talked to the gal on the phone and she told me that the twist rate was 1 in 38!:shock: Then I ask a simple question of what is the groove diameter? Well she says "we cut them at .431 with a +/- tolerance of 2 thou".!!!:shock:!!! So it could be .429 or .433! Unacceptable! My .223 has done well so far and the 45-70 is a good 'un. I WILL NOT buy another barrel from them until they get a tighter reign on their tolerances!:roll:

[jlchucker]

I have had the exact same experience with the H& R 38-55 as Lumpie and NoDakJak. When I first bought the rifle, I bought a box of Winchester ammo (jacketed). The rifle worked great, and I was a happy camper until I tried cast. Nothing worked. Advice from Ranchdog, complete with blueprints, was tried, and I stopped the keyholeing, but still never actually did get better than a 2 inch group with oversize bullets at 50 yd. My gunsmith did a chamber cast, and the chamber specs were right on. Land and bore dimensions were exactly like those described by Lumpie. A friend of my brother wanted the rifle, wagged some money at me, and now it will be his problem. I hope he enjoys shooting factory jacketed ammo at 36 bucks a box.

A brand-new rifle shouldn't require the buyer to hire additional contract machining from an independent gunsmith in order to make a 120 + year old caliber work with cast bullets. I have little regard for H&R products at this point, even though some posters have written about outstanding groups with some calibers. I, for one, have owned my last H&R single shot, and probably my last 38-55.

[garandsrus]

JLChucker,

H&R did correct the chamber size verses the bore dimensions on the 38-55 in 2007 but apparently the damage was already done. They discontinued the 38-55 in 2008...

John

[jlchucker]

Hey Garandsrus, mine was one with a corrected chamber (serial no. beginning with HX). The bore on the 38-55's remains big, with extremely shallow rifling. Maybe OK for factory jacketed ammo, but this gun shoots a variety of cast boolets badly. I'm basing these comments on the dimensions shown on measurements taken by my gunsmith on a cerrosafe chamber casting, and comparing them to chamber blueprints emailed to me by another sitemember. And also after much experimentation with various plain-base cast boolets. You'd think a modern gun company would be able to produce a satisfactory product based upon a 120 year old design--especially after the caliber had been revived by Marlin and a few other gunmakers, and even considering that custom barrel makers had never stopped producing barrels for 38-55. No, I have no use for this company after my own experiences, and after reading accounts of similar problems posted by other shooters. Sure, they recently discontinued the rifle, but they still can be had from distributors. Funny how after all of this they never had a recall to fix the problems with this particular caliber. I hope that the 38-55 project engineer isn't one of the people that Remington is keeping. He really fouled up on this one.

[NickSS]

Wel I have a 38-55 that I have only shot cast from and have had great groups. I size my boolits to .379 and they are as accurate as the same boolits and loads are from my $2000 C. Sharps high wall with a badger barrel. Mine was bought late last year so may be one that they fixed????

[garandsrus]

jlchucker,

I size my boolits to .380 to get good accuracy. They are also gas checked. If you want to try some to see if they do any better for you, let me know...

The mold is from a group buy that Buckshot ran a year or two ago, so it's not a production mold.

John

[jlchucker]

Garandrus, Thanks for the offer, but I've already sold the rifle. In all fairness to H&R it didn't do too bad with factory jacketed bullets, but I tried several cast loads, powders, several configurations of cast bullets. The best results, with a .380 bullet, given to me by an old army buddy who had a lot of experience with this particular rifle in BPCR matches, was a PB bullet, Flatnose, 252 gr, seated out into the very shallow lands. It shot into 3 inches at 50 yd. Still not good. The new owner has determined that he needs a lower globe front sight besides a lot more experimentation. Or, he will use the gun exclusively with factory jacketed ammo. Again, thanks for the offer.

[northmn]

An aquaintance bought a Italian Win High Wall that had the same problems you people are mentioning. It was about 381 bore and was keyholing smaller bullet diameters. The same for a 38-55 Marlin lever gun that had a 380 barrel. Why they cannot wise up and make a good 38-55 with a 375 barrel to fit more current specs is a puzzle. The 375 Win was used in some BPC events for that reason. I have had good luck with my 45-70 "Buffalo" rifle with its 30" barrel made by NEF and have gotten acceptable accuracy and a deer with it. However the neck sized only cases do look kind of bottlenecked. I had a Rossi in 7.62X39 that misfired and wasnot all that accurate. The NEF's do give a better rifle than the Rossi. I have also had others in other calibers. I think the term "Handi Rifle" is the key. They are not match guns.

Northmn

[John Boy]

I shoot .380 - 330gr lead cast bullets in my H&R Target Model barrel. To make them chamber, I spent $25 plus shipping and sent it to Old Scout in CA. He is a 40+ years smithy and a 38-55 crank. Opened the chamber and not a problem since
Article on the issue ... http://www.brimstonepistoleros.com/gazette/jan06.html
R. F. Clark, Gunsmith
640 Emerald St.,
Upland, Calif. 91786
909-984-1548
Old Scout (o.scout@verizon.net)

[scb]

Observation

Hart barrel blank 295.00
Lilga barrel blank 295.00
Krieger barrel blank 265.00
Douglas barrel blank 170.00

Complete handi rifle (buy it now on GunBroker) $217.00

Please excuse my bluntness, but with all due respect what do you expect.

[stillhunter]

I just got rid of my H&R 1871 in 38-55. It had the plastic furniture, so I guess it was an early one. I really like the caliber, having had a Winchester 94. Are the Marlins any better, or do they have the same problems??

[ForneyRider]

Is this something unique to .38-55?

I was looking at a .243Win heavy barrel.

Does Remington (Cerberus) own NEF?

Is H&R and NEF the same?

[garandsrus]

ForneyRider,

I believe it was unique to the 38-55 Buffalo Classic. I have several H&R's that shoot very well.

Remington just bought NEF. H&R and NEF are pretty much the same.

John

[jlchucker]

Johnboy, if you have to spend any amount at all for independent machining work to correct a factory design problem, then you have bought a poorly designed and manufactured product in the first place. For the time it was produced, it would seem that a majority of customers had major issues with the 38-55, but H&R never really made much of an attempt, as a company, to correct the problems. Their biggest fix was to discontinue that particular model. Perhaps those who buy these rifles from the dissatisfied first owners (probably for a lot less than the original purchase price) will get a decent product once Old Scout reworks them. I myself had an offer from someone who wanted my 38-55 a lot more than I did, and escaped from under a poor product with minimal financial loss. Maybe all of this was limited to the Buffalo Classic in 38-55, but I doubt if I'll ever buy any H&R single shot again. SCB makes a good point. You get what you pay for. In the end, it appears that you'd have to pay quite a bit more to get a satisfactory H&R 38-55 than the off-the-shelf price.

[leftiye]

Ye're all looking at the tight neck/ oversize groove in the 38-55 as a problem. It's a blessing! (Ya, right, huh?) Just take measurements of groove size, calculate plus .002", add the thickness of your case necks, and ream the neck out to that diameter plus .002". (a chucking reamer will do fine). So where else can you get a chamber with a minimum neck clearance for cast? Next, get rid of that Gawd awful rifling with no leade that just starts full height at the front of the chamber (with a slow angle throater).

I've over the years developed this attitude that if there's metal to remove, you then can correct things. Most , if not all Manufacturers screw things up. And if they don't, they probly won't make chambers or anything else as best as can be done (state of the art) anyway. Many will give you sheize instead of help if you complain about them not giving a damn about what they market so long as they get your money. Yes, they should do better, but we all should have 50 ft. sailboats too. Just don't buy from them again, maybe?

[Nrut]

Leftiye....Can you use a "chucking reamer" by hand?
~Do you need a pilot to go in the bore to hold the the reamer staight?
~And where would one order up one of these reamers?

I don't have the luxury of sending my H&R to one of the fellows that do the fix job's down in the states so I will have to do it myself...
Thanks for your reply,
:smile:

[leftiye]

Nrut, Without a pilot, I'd be a little nervous about doing it by hand. That having been said, it might could be done. If you know someone with machine tools, the front part of the reamer could be ground down with a toolpost grinder, and a sleeve type pilot made for it. You'd have to grind and resharpen the cutting edges on the front edges of the flutes that are left.

Problem with all of this is that a guy with a lathe is easier to find than a guy with a toolpost grinder (and the guy with the toolpost grinder will also have a lathe). Point of all this last is that once you find the guy with the lathe it is a waste of time to modify the reamer, just use it in the lathe (though it would be better with a pilot). It is entirely possible to make a "D" type reamer with pilot yourself to do throating, and "necking" too. The chucking reamer if you aren't taking too much out of the neck should self center very well (they flex easily unless poorly centered).

[Nrut]

Thanks leftiye..
Well I think I'll make up a dummy round with a .383" boolit (as my groove is .3813" and send it to a reamer maker down in the states ...Then take the reamer and the rifle(s) to a gunsmith..
My Marlin CB in 38-55 has the same .381"+ groove dia. /small chamber also so I can use the reamer for both rifles...
cheers...

[leftiye]

Let me know how it works out. Maybe I could borrow it to do mine?

[Nrut]

Let me know how it works out. Maybe I could borrow it to do mine?

Leftiye...These 38-55's are on the back burner for me now as I have other rifles to work up loads for that don't need to have their chambers modified to make shoot...It will be a long while before I get back to the H&R and the Marlin but at least I know now how to solve the problems they have...Do you live in the States?...If I lived there I would have just shipped them back to H&R and Marlin and told them to rebarrel them with a max. dia groove of .379" or smaller...
But answer your question...yes you can use the reamer when I order one...What are your bore and groove dia. and what dia. is the largest boolit you can chamber now?
:)

[leftiye]

I've got a new barrel (last summer from H&R) that I've never put on the reciever. Haven't slugged nor cast it. As I said, it's not too hard to make a reamer to open up the neck, or do a throat, so I'm fine, Thanks.

[John Boy]

Johnboy, if you have to spend any amount at all for independent machining work to correct a factory design problem, then you have bought a poorly designed and manufactured product in the first place.
JL - I don't consider $25 a big deal in order to shoot BPCR bullets and recipes. And also use 2.125" cases. And be able to shoot a 38-55 BP bullet a 1000yds (after many sight adjustments in unfavorable wind conditions.

And also swap out the 38-55 barrel for the 45-70. And be able to shoot the best BPCR group I have ever done at 600yds: 5 shot group - 7" x 2 3/4" with witnesses.

And also be able to take a H&R 28 ga shotgun and make the rifle that H&R doesn't know they have ... a 25-20 WCF that I use for gallary matches:
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/HR_25_20/HR25-20.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/HR_25_20/HR25-20Breech.jpg
Next addition to the 25-20 is a Stevens 44 1/2 Schuetzen butt plate!

These El Cheapo's shoot groups with the best of high ticket rifles and I have 'three' under the price of $800. Not a bad deal! [smilie=1:

[garandsrus]

John Boy,

How did you mount the tang sight? Did you just inlet the wood or did you add a tang? Would you do anything differently if you did it again?

Thanks,
John

[John Boy]

How did you mount the tang sight? Did you just inlet the wood or did you add a tang? Would you do anything differently if you did it again?
John - I mounted both vernier rear sights on the wrist of the butt stock. First one - tapped a hole on the back of the 'tang' - inletted the wood - leveled the cut with epoxy - screwed in the base and then shimmed the base level ... was a royal PITA!

Second one - just cut a shallow slot on the wrist - leveled with epoxy - set the base and then shimmed level

If I was to do it again? Would send off and have a tang extension made or mill a brass plate for the sight base to attach to on the wrist

[garandsrus]

John Boy,

Thanks... I like the idea of a brass plate!

John