RIA Pro Match Ultra 6" - .45 ACP

[tonyjones]

Hello,

I've been looking for a pistol for informal bullseye shooting. I will be competing againt myself while working to become a better shot with a pistol. My intention is to shoot 200 grain cast SWC's (H&G 68 copy) at mostly 25 yards but will try my skills at 50 yards at some point. Does anyone here have any experience, thoughts or comments to share?

Thanks and regards,

Tony

[country gent]

Start with a good pistol and workup a known load that performs exceptionally well off the bench. RIA is good as is Kimber, or any of the custom makers. Load a big batch of this ammo for future use and then parctice practice practice. WOrk on hold, breathing and releasing the shot. Alot of this can be done dryfiring at home ( no ammo where the dryfiring is done, check pistol before entering and again before strating. If pistol is dual use then set down and walk away a while before loading back up). There are charts that show what causes diffrent areas impacts on the target by quadrant. A load that shoots well and functions the pistol ( a lighter end load) is a big plus as recoil isnt as big a issue and makes learning easier

[nagantguy]

Country gent has offered sage advice and wise counsel.

[stu1ritter]

The standard target load for the #68 at approx 200gr (which I shoot) has always been 3.5 of Bullseye. I've been shooting other powders of late and use 3.5 of VV N310 and 3.8 of Winchester WST. These are all lighter target loads and the gun will have to be tuned to the load with recoil spring changes (going lighter). Most shooters use the same load at 50 yards that they use at 25 yards. Most think it much better to automatically adjust your sights than to mix up ammunition. To get serious about bullseye shooting in any form you should read the Army Advanced Marksmanship Manual which is located here; http://www.bullseyepistol.com/amucover.htm and you should read every word. I've been shooting bullseye for 55 years and still re-read it all the time.
Stu

[stu1ritter]

Digging through some stuff I just ran across an article from an old Rifleman entitled "Reloading .45 Pistol Ammunition" by some guy named Jim Clark (yeah, him). "I use and recommend either the H&G No. 130 which is a copy of the Remington 185-grain bullet or the H&G No.68. I use Bullseye powder for the 1911 and use 3.5 grains for both the 25 and 50 yard line. Dropping to 3.3 grains will effect the accuracy at the 50 yard line but 3.3 is fine for the 25 yard line."

Just thought you might like to hear what one of the real masters had to say.

Stu

[bgw45]

I'm doing through same process as the OP. If you are really serious about this project I would advise purchasing the very best pistol you can afford. When trying to determine if your shot placement is a result of your shot routine or accuracy of the firearm can lead to frustration. You can't resolve an inaccurate pistol. Have fun.

[ole 5 hole group]

I'm doing through same process as the OP. If you are really serious about this project I would advise purchasing the very best pistol you can afford. When trying to determine if your shot placement is a result of your shot routine or accuracy of the firearm can lead to frustration. You can't resolve an inaccurate pistol. Have fun.

I'll agree to a point. When I first started shooting bullseye, I had a 1911 that could probably hold 4 inches, maybe 4.5" at 50 yards. When I made expert I thought a custom 1911 would be my quick ticket to Master.

I purchased both a Clark & Shockey, at great marital risk I might add, and I think I added something like 3 points to my overall average. I still had to put in a lot more time & effort in order to realize the potential of my pistols & reloads. It was all up to me to put in quality time on the line. If he has deep pockets - well, that's a totally different discussion.


Once he's able to clean the 25 yard target on demand and average 82/85 at 50 yards - I would think he would be ready to spend some hard earned money. Until then, let's see if he expends the time & effort to achieve those goals, as not everyone has the time to spend at the range, at the casting bench and on the progressive reloader and still keep the family happy - not as easy as it sounds.

[tonyjones]

I am retired and no longer have deep pockets. If I were to purchase a long slide Clark, Baer or other top end match pistol I would need to sell something else first. That would not present a problem but it's not something I'm considering at present. I have no intention of ever again shooting in a registered/sanctioned match of any kind. I merely intend to become a much better shot with a hand gun. At present I live in Houston but plan to relocate to a rural setting in the not too distant future. I will have a range on my property and the time necessary to cast, load and practice several times a week. I do not intend this as a criticism of anyone's choice but I will pass on the progressive press and continue to batch load on single stage equipment as I've done for more than 50 years.

Regards,

Tony

[bgw45]

O5HG has great insight. TJ, if restricted by by finance, as I am, then get whatever will allow you to have the most fun. Shoot a ton. Build your skills.

[jcren]

For what it is worth, I have a 5" RIA tac model that has had a basic home trigger job and a Wilson bushing added on that I can shoot 6" with, off hand at 50 yards on a good day, and the gun is far outshooting me.

[tonyjones]

jcren,

That's better than I can do at present! Where does one learn how to do a trigger job on a 1911? Has anyone here had any experience with the Pro Match Ultra 6"? Is the extra 1" of barrel, slide and sight radius worth the additional weight and expense?

Thanks,

TJ

[ole 5 hole group]

TJ - congratulations on being retired and still finding time to shoot several times a week. With your stated circumstances, you'll do just fine with what you have.

A progressive is only a must have for those that shoot upward of seven hundred rounds a week, every week. For anyone else, it's merely a very nice convenient way of spending an evening preparing for the next month or two of shooting.;)

Just Google doing a trigger job on 1911 and you'll see different recommendations. Only problem you will find is - once you start modifying your 1911 - it's hard to stop and becomes a money pit.

I have one of my Baer's down to a 2.25 to 2.5 pound let-off with several other goodies added to an already fantastic pistol - I can still shoot it pretty well. If you haven't already purchased the 1911 - my advice would be to stay with a 5" barrel and keep it stock until you feel the need to somehow improve that puppy due to your increased abilities with the pistol. As the guy said - 6" at 50 yards on a GOOD day - for most with a decent 1911, 6" at 50 yards off-hand doesn't happen all that often on a GOOD DAY, as 8 inches is considered a mighty fine group and you'll have to work at it to see consistency.:-)

[tonyjones]

ole 5 hole group,

I plan on shooting about half that much...tops. My goal is to be able to shoot paper targets well enough to please myself and to confidently take deer and feral hogs with a hand gun at 50 to 75 yards with iron sights. For hunting I might/probably will use crossed sticks, depending on the circumstances at the moment.

Regards,

Tony

[jcren]

The basic job is just a matter of adjusting take-up and overtravel, polishing all contact points (trigger bow, spring tips etc) and "tweaking" the tri-spring to suit your taste. I did stone the hammer hooks to .020 tall and square them, but without a sear jig, I just lightly stoned the factory sear angle and relief. I forgot, but I also installed a Wilson reliability spring set. Cheap insurance.

[wonderwolf]

I would be in the "start with a basic" pistol like a RIA and if you're comfortable learn to work on it to accurize it if you feel the need to do so. Pistol shooting isn't like some other games (like small bore) where you have to pick and choose all the equipment that fits you and works for your routine.

If the OP is anywhere near camp perry this coming week is pistol week for nationals up there.

I've shot various rim fire match pistols and have a few mid-higher end ones but for center fire I focus on .38 revolvers now. As a shooter of many disciplines the dry firing DOES help but you have to look at it like each shot is its own match. I use a black thumb tack at the end of a 25' hallway as my target. Call out shots (low left, high etc) as you go and remember that consistency is key. Good luck

[Bull Shoals]

TJ, I had Jim Clark build a 45 for me in Oct of 1968. His testing in a Ransom Rest at 50 yards gave 2" ten shot groups at 50 yards. The load was Rem case, Win primers, 3.9 gr of Bullseye under a Lyman 452460 200 gr cast. I used this in completion at the old Caddo Rifle & Pistol club. And yes Jim also shot there. The Holiday in Dixie matches were a lot of fun.

[22cf45]

I would suggest you look long and hard at a Springfield Armory Range Officer. I think you can get into a new one for $700 or less. It is a very good entry level bullseye pistol and is also an excellent foundation to build into a super match .45 if you decide you want to go that far. Not so with some others mentioned here.
Phil

[tonyjones]

Stu,

Thanks for the link to the Army manual and the reference to the Clark article. Clark's ammunition recommendations are pretty much what I intend to follow. A lot of folks have attempted to follow Clark's path to one degree or another.

At present I do not own a 1911 pistol so I am open to suggestions. I do have dies (older RCBS), about 2,000 mixed HS once fired brass, 1,000 Remington 185 grain jacketed Match SWC, 100 Sierra 185 grain FPJ Match SWC and a 4 cavity NOE copy of the H&G 68. Perhaps I should get a copy of the H&G 130 as well. I intend to shoot the jacked bullets but will not replace them.

I am in good shape propellant wise with 4 lb. jugs of Bullseye, Red Dot, Green Dot, Clays, International Clays, Universal Clays, Titewad, Nitro 100, Solo 1000 and 1 lb. of WW 231. Everything else in my powder locker is too slow for this application. I'm still waiting for my primer ship to come in.

Regards,

Tony

[tonyjones]

Phil,

The SA Range Officer is on my short list. I do not know why but for some reason or other I like the idea of a 6" 1911 pistol. I have pretty much given up on a 9 mm RO which I asked about in another thread and now I'm trying to decide which .45 to buy and work with.

Regards,

Tony

[ole 5 hole group]

Tony,

Since we have moved from paper targets at 25 yards and occasional 50 yards to whitetail and hogs at 50 to 75 yards with irons and possibility a 1911 in the $700.00 range - may I make a suggestion?


I would suggest you save a little more money and consider a 45 ACP either a 1911 series 70 clone or go for the Glock 21 - have the slide milled and go with a red dot of your choice.


A milled slide puts the red dot in the same location as your irons, so when you bring the pistol up and your eye looks for that rear sight - the red dot will be right there. No need to align the front sight up - just put the dot on target or at 6 O'clock, press the trigger and you should hit your target or be damn close.


The red dot will shorten your practice time to attain the necessary skills to reliably strike your target at the range you practice at. 50 to 75 yards is still quite a poke for a pistol but with enough quality trigger time it can be done. Still will take many months or years to put small groups together off-hand at 50 yards or more.


I might further suggest you look for a used Baer PII, as some individuals will purchase a Baer thinking the pistol will produce small groups, which it will in the hands of an experienced 1911 Marksman. Some of these individuals get quite disgusted with the Baer when it won't shoot bug-hole groups for them and will sell at attractive prices to a buyer looking for a Baer. I'm a true Baer believer but there are other quality pistols out there - some more expensive, some not as expensive but they all will do what you're looking for. The slide milling has to be done on a series 70 1911 clone, as I do not know anyone that will mill a 80 series slide - any Glock can have the slide milled.
I wish you the best of luck in your quest.

http://www.bowietacticalconcepts.com/pictures.html

[22cf45]

Tony
Long slides were the big deal back in the early '80's and all bullseye shooter lusted after one or at the least, a regular 5" with an extended front sight. However, after we all started using red dot sights, the long slides lost their luster since after you add the sight they become HEAVY and with no added benefit. Now, after having said all that, if that's what you really want, go for it. After all, it's your money and your pistol.
Phil

[tonyjones]

ole 5 hole group,

The 1911 will be for paper target practice, some plinking and just plain old fun. When after deer and hogs I will more likely reach for a .44 caliber revolver loaded with 250 grain Keith type bullets (M-P H&G 503 copy) loaded in the 1,100 to 1,200 fps mv range.

Phil,

I do not know what I really want or need. I'm exploring that now. I DO KNOW that I wish that I had back in my pocket all of the money spent over 5 decades on stuff I only thought I wanted or needed!

Regards,

Tony

[tonyjones]

Please tell me about red dot equipped 1911's. Bear in mind that I've never used a red dot and know next to nothing about them. I'm in my mid 60's and while I can still see iron sights I know that will not last forever.

Thanks,

Tony

[jmsj]

Tony,
I build/tune a lot of Bullseye 1911's for friends. The Springfield Range Officer is probably the bang for the buck. We have built a couple of RIA's that will shoot "clean" targets at 25yds and 50yds. but that takes A LOT of work and requires installing a Kart match barrel and barrel bushing plus a lot more. I am not knocking RIA's, they are a good value for what you pay.
To be competitive (above Marksman class) the Springfield Range Officer would require a new fitted barrel bushing and trigger job. I am not a great BE shooter but the first RO I fired produced a 96-4X @25yds out of the box.
Red dot are great for aging eyes! They really improve my scores. Most BE shooters use slide mounted red dots with Ultra Dot being the most popular brand. Frame mounted red dots are making a small comeback on pistols but only very highly tuned pistols. The added weight of the mount + red dot on the slide can require tuning springs when using the low power loads typically used in BE to get 100% cycling reliability .
Good luck, jmsj

[ole 5 hole group]

Depends on your use Tony - like jmsj advised, most Bullseye competitors started with the grip or slide mounted red dots - the scope type such as the Ultra Dot. It's an excellent set-up but it's main use IMHO is in stationary target shooting such as bullseye. It does take a little practice to bring it up into position where you can see the dot every time. The scope type is just a tad quicker in this manner than the reflex sight. You can Google images for bullseye red dot sights to get an idea of what the sights look like.

If your use will be self-defense, target shooting, moving targets, draw from the holster shooting etc - I strongly recommend getting the 1911 70 series clone slide milled for the red dot base of your choice. The only down side is once done - you can't undo the milling. If you think you might go back to irons, just have back-up sights milled/installed on the frame - they are called BUIS - back up iron sights. The 1911 pictured on Dave Bowie's site (my last post has the site) with the Deltapoint - that is what the 1911 with milled slide looks like with the red dot and BUIS. If you look at the picture with the sight picture just below and a little left - that's what the dot and BUIS look like when in use.

Now, if you just want to experiment with the reflex red dot sight - you can just use the dovetail plate mount that fits into the slot for your rear sight and see if you like it. It will mount higher on your frame but that is how a lot of revolver/pistol red dot user's mount their reflex sights, who don't want to spend the money on milling or don't want to permanently alter their slide. Takes a lot more practice to come from the holster, pick-up the dot and send lead downrange - than a red dot with milled slide but for most - that isn't important to them.

IMO - the major reason bullseye shooters haven't flocked to the milled slide is it's more expensive and doesn't give them anything over what they have now - except a little less weight.

Again - all this runs into more money spent - for me, it's money well spent because I just "feel the need" for a well set-up 1911 that can shoot bug-hole groups from a rest - and bushel basket groups off-hand.;)

AS a side note - a 1911 can be set-up nicely to handle 230 to 265 grain bullets with velocities in that 1,000 fps range for big game hunting. One just needs the skill to take advantage of that option but if you can place your shots with a 44 revolver, I see no reason to doubt that you can do the same with a 1911.

[tonyjones]

The pistol I'm discussing here will never see a holster. Neither will it be used as a carry gun. I have a S&W M&P 340 CT for concealed carry and will probably add something along the lines of a Kahr CW45 for that purpose. I am intrigued by the idea/ use of a Red Dot sight on a target gun. I have some home work to do.

Regards,

Tony

[TCFAN]

Hello,

I've been looking for a pistol for informal bullseye shooting. I will be competing againt myself while working to become a better shot with a pistol. My intention is to shoot 200 grain cast SWC's (H&G 68 copy) at mostly 25 yards but will try my skills at 50 yards at some point. Does anyone here have any experience, thoughts or comments to share?

Thanks and regards,

Tony

Tony like you,I too like to shoot informal bullseye shooting only against myself.I tried the 1911 45 but did not really care for it.I soon went to the revolver and have used a couple of different ones. My latest is a Smith 686 with a red dot sight using 357 brass and 4.2grs of Bullseye powder with a Lee 140 gr. SWC.It shoot a lot better than I can hold it one hand.

http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx200/TCintheOzarks/Cast%20Boolits/DSCN8666.jpg (http://s755.photobucket.com/user/TCintheOzarks/media/Cast%20Boolits/DSCN8666.jpg.html)

[tonyjones]

TCFAN,

In addition to a 1911 I also plan on replacing the S&W 625 I sold years ago.

Regards,

Tony

[22cf45]

143973
Tony
Here's one of my bullseye .45's, shoots 1.5-2.0" out of a Ransom Rest by Dave Salyer. It has a Clark mount. Can't remember what it cost, but somewhere around $30-35 plus the cost of drilling the holes.
Phil

[Boolseye]

Welcome to the club–Bullseye style off-hand shooting is a great discipline and a good way to become proficient with firearms in general. I will second the Army Marksmanship Manual–I studied that one well, and still refer back to it. Also, the mention of dry-firing is on-point. I definitely notice my skills maintained and improved with a good regimen of dry-firing. I have chosen to accurize my own guns, one an RIA and the other an SA mil-spec. That SA was a tack-driver out of the box. I tooled up with the necessaries and had at it, learned 1911s inside and out in the process. Regardless, you will learn a lot, and that NOE mold will keep you in fine slugs. Enjoy the discipline.