50-70 Government Load

[Toymaker]

My brother collects original firearms from every conflict the U.S. has been in, and he includes the Revolution. The caveat, they have to be shootable.
Recently he acquired a Springfield Trapdoor (forget the year/model) in 50-70. He bought cases, bullets, dies, compression die, punch, powder (Goex FFg), primers, etc. and turned them over to me for loading. Then he bought a mold for casting bullets.
I've read several threads here and elsewhere on loading for the 50-70 but I haven't found much to decide if he (therefore, me) is headed in the right direction. This rifle will be used to shoot Black Powder loads only, no smokeless.

The bore has been slugged. First from the breech and up the bore 4 inches. Second from the muzzle and down 4 inches. Third all the way through. It was a surprisingly consistent 0.511 inch.
Nope, I don't know the twist rate. He was supposed to do this but I haven't heard from him.
The bought bullets are horrible - rough, wrinkled, etc. They are 1.032 inches long, vary in width along the seam axis versus 90° from the axis but are nominally 0.515 inch. Couldn't find a sizer. They weigh (average of 10) 469.5 grains (lube removed). Are lubed with something red that doesn't feel like it's going to work for black powder. Have a BHN of 14 (Saeco tester) so were probably cast of Lyman #2.
The mold is the Lyman 515139. This will throw a bullet 0.725 inch long, nominally 0.515 inch in diameter (they will be used 'as cast'), weighing 340 grains (although I read one place that it's 350 grains). They will be lubed with SPG. I'm thinking of casting with 30:1 to keep the bullet soft and able to obdurate easily. Noted that a 0.515 bullet up a 0.511 bore isn't going to need to obdurate so I may cast 20:1 or harder. I know that too soft or too hard can be as bad as too small in creating leading.

I loaded some bought bullets with 70 grains FFg drop-tubed 36 inches and a 0.0625 card wad. I had to compress the powder nearly 1/3 inch to get an O.A.L of 2.600 inches. A newspaper disk was put over the card wad. He has not had the opportunity to shoot these yet, so results are unknown.
When I looked at the mold I thought "Durn1, that's a small bullet." I definitely won't have to compress the powder as much. I like something between 0.20 and 0.25 inch. But I'm wondering if there's enough bearing surface for good accuracy2. When it decides to stop raining for a while I'll cast some bullets.

So I'd like to hear ideas from and experiences of others with the 50-70, especially with bullets lighter than the traditional government load.

1 Yea, right - that's what I said. :bigsmyl2:
2 I'm remember my experiences with my 45-70 which wouldn't shoot worth a hoot until I got to a 405 grain bullet.

[remannino]

Using the following for my Trapdoor

60 gr Triple Seven FFG by volume not weight
515 450 gr FN HB NOE Mould
SPG lube Hand Pressed into groves
.030 Fibre Wad
2.230 OAL
Slight Crimp to remove belling
Neck sized once fired, FL sized new brass

This seems too shoot pretty well but still needs tuning for my trapdoor.

Let me know how this runs for you and oh BTW I started with 50 gr and worked up. Since I'm using Triple Seven, this rule is 10% volume reduction because because it's not a true BP.

[John Boy]

Read this and take if from there ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50-70_Government

[country gent]

WHile I dont load for 50-70 ( yet I wouldnt pass one up ) there are several things to loading black powder cartridges. 2 f is a good starting place but dont hesitate to try 1 1.2 or 1f either in the bigger cases the coarser granulations seem to work better. Check the hardness of the purchased bullets black powder tends to like a "softer" alloy, I use 20-1 lead tin for almost all my bpcr bullets. Compression can be varied and is affected by bullet, wads used, powder charge and cases. Keep in mind original cases were balloon heads with more capacity than modern solid head cases. Annealing cases can really help imrove the loads accuracy. STarline has a little slip in with thier brass that states If used for black powder loads cases need to be annealed. Annealing softens the brass and allows it to size easier, seal chamber better, and give a more consistant bullet release. Seating bullets with the die may deform the soft bullets used here. Alot make the expander up so bullets can be hand seated onto the wad and size for neck tension afterwards. Then just "kiss" the bullet with the seater about .010 deeper. Starting new I would find the charge that wad stack included just fills to base of bullet ( no compression) and work up in 2-3 grn increments ivcreasig compression in small increments till the right amount is found for your powder and lot, changing powders will affect the needed compression also. Then once correct compression is found experiment with bullets. Then diffrent wad materials and possibly lubes. For components Buffalo Arms company offers many bullet styles cast from 20-1 and lubed with SPG. in many calibers and styles wieghts. They also offer wad punches or pre made wads, SPG and other lubes. Look over their website. Over compressing powder can cause accuracy issues and in extreme instances swell csases to the point they wont chamber easily.

[Don McDowell]

Compressing that Goex 1/3 of an inch will make it shoot better than not compressing it. Matter of fact if that's regular Goex 2f mashin it another tenth won't hurt a darn thing.
68 grs of OE 1.5 seems to be working fairly well under a 515 gr patched bullet.

[StrawHat]

I shoot a Springfield 1866.

Here is a website for all things Trapdoor.

http://trapdoorcollector.com/

There is a description of each Model of rifle and Carbine produced by Springfield. The is also a section called "Shooters Page" tha will take you to modification and recipes for loads. Most will be for the 45-70 but there are some for the 50 also.

The Lyman 515139 is going to cast a much lighter (shorter) bullet than was used by the Arsenal for the cartridge. The original cartridge was 450 grains and can be duplicated with the Lyman 515141, the Lee 515-450-F or the NOE 515450 HB. I have used all three and while I really like the HB mold, there is nothing wrong with either of the other two, if they cast a big enough boolit.

I use 30/1 alloy to cast and am experimenting with Olde Eynsford 2F powder.

Use a black powder compatible lube.

How much you want to tweak a load is up to you. I am more than happy with a 3MOA load for any hunting rifle. Especially one throwing this size boolit.

Best of luck and keep us posted.

Kevin

[Toymaker]

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION - The rifle is a Springfield 1866 Trapdoor, second Allin conversion made in 1867. The twist is 1:42 with three lands and grooves.
remannino - thank you for the load info. I'm really looking for info using a lighter (shorter) bullet, but if we get stuck with something heavier I'll give yours a try - - with Goex FFg though.
John Boy - I'd found that site and the info. I found it very interesting. In fact, that article started me wondering about my brothers selection of a smaller/lighter bullet. Thanks.
country gent - I'm a little reluctant to use FFFg in an original which likely used a powder not as well made as powders today. I do have some Goex Cartridge Powder which I may try. But I'd like to stick with FFg if possible.
As I said, the bought bullets tested at BHN 14 with my Saeco tester which likely means they were cast with Lyman #2, but no guarantee.
The cases are Starline and I do anneal all my black powder cases before use. Sorry I left that detail out. I also like to start with the bullet just kissing the rifling and then back out a little at a time. I've read several articles that indicate the rifle is very prone to leading at the throat if backed out too much.
Don McDowell - although it has been with a 45-70 rolling block my experience has been that compression over about 1/4 inch is nothing but trouble. The roller loves 0.19 inch compression. BUT the years have taught me that every rifle has its own personality and part of the fun is finding what it likes. Now, with my muzzle loader I practiced a long time to get 65 lbs of pressure on that powder column before seating the patched ball. Read in the Bevel Brothers that 65 lbs pressure was optimum and it has served me well.
StrawHat - that's a new site to me. Thanks. I'll be reading up on that and taking notes - for my 45-70 too!!

According to the old formula Bullet Length = 150 divided by {Twist (inches) divided by Bullet Diameter[squared]} the minimum bullet length is 0.94 inch That means the Lyman 515139 is too short. BUT, I've always treated that formula as a guide because a 405 grain bullet in my rolling block is too short, but it shoots beautifully.

Much thanks for the good info!!! Hopefully some more folks will pop in with suggestions. There's no such thing as too much information and the only dumb question is the one that doesn't get asked!!

[varsity07840]

I shoot an 1868:

Bell or Starline brass full length sized
70 gr Swiss 1.5, .030 wad
Lee .515 450 gr. Government 20/1
Federal 215 primer
Powder compressed to seat bullet just above top grease groove, light crimp
This load works equally well in my '63 Sharps converted carbine. They both have .515 bores.

Duane

[Don McDowell]

Toymaker compression is more dependant on the brand of powder. Regular goex gets good when you mash the snot out of it. 1/2 inch isn't out of reason. KIK likes to be stepped on as well. Olde Eynsford seems to be the best running around 2-3 tenths. Schuetzen and Swiss like just a bit of pressure, altho some shooters that are extremely competitive on national levels have good results mashin the stuffing out of Swiss..

[Toymaker]

Well, my brother had his Springfield out at the range yesterday. He's dealt with a specific commercial reloader before for some of the stuff he's collected and bought some smokeless loads for the 50-70. They didn't shoot worth a durn. A couple even key-holed.
He'd also brought some of the BP reloads I'd made for him using the commercial cast bullets mentioned above. They were better but no where near "minute of deer". I'm thinking they're too hard and not engaging the rifling.
If it'll stop raining the next step is to cast some bullets myself out of pure lead and see how they do. If that looks good then I can add a little tin and he can test those. Varsity07840 and remannino - surprisingly similar loads. Must be something there so that's going to be a test too. I looked in the locker and I do have 3/4 of a can of Swiss 1 1/2, but no 777. Since they're his reloads I guess I could always tell him to go find some.............. :bigsmyl2:

[Don McDowell]

Don't get caught up in the to hard of alloy thing. Really isn't any such thing. More likely your accuracy problem is coming from the bullet being to small diameter, lack of good fouling control, and maybe just needing to do some more load development.

[Skank Killer]

Sounds like you've gotten a lot of good advice, so I won't add anything by way of advice, just the way I'm doing it for a Shiloh. My rifle has a 1:36 twist, and while in reading posts I didn't run across the twist of your Trapdoor, I'd guess it's someplace in that vicinity.

My current bullets came from a Lee 515-450 F mould, using 20-1 allow from Rotometals and sized .510 in a Lee sizer after pan lubing with straight DGL. I'm seating a .060" fiber wad from Walters .485" from the case mouth, then hand seating the bullet against the wad, followed by a light to moderate crimp to keep the bullet in the case. Powder is KIK FFG, though previously I used Goex; both shoot well, but the KIK seems to shoot somewhat cleaner. Using this load I have had zero leading, and fouling is not a problem either. Fun load to shoot and "minute of deer" was easy to achieve with a bit of practice.

PS: Best brass so far is fireformed Dixie.

[toot]

best brass so far is fire formed Dixie- what is it, and formed from what? did I miss something? let me know, thanks.

[13Echo]

Several things need comment:

First: The Springfield barrel has three groove rifling and measuring bore and groove diameter isn't as simple as using a regular micrometer. Unless it was done correctly the 0.511" bore is likely much closer to 0.515" or larger.

Second: "Hard cast" bullets will not "bump up" to fill the grooves in the barrel and will not shoot accurately and may cause leading unless they are groove diameter to start.

Third: The original case had a folded head and could accomidate a full 70 grs of black powder. I found my rifle with modern brass did better with 65grs which still required compression.

Fourth: A soft alloy (I use 30:1 lead to tin) will allow the bullet to "bump up" to fill the grooves even if it is a bit undersized.

Fifth: At least in my moulds the Lyman 450gr cast at 0.511 and would not shoot accurately in my 1868 rifle. The Lee version of this bullet cast about 0.515 as did the NOE bullet and both gave acceptable results (minute of hostile).

In summery I find a soft bullet form a Lee or NOE mold version of the Govt 450gr bullet with 65 grs of FFG compressed to allow seating the bullet to get a firm crimp over the base of the ogive gives acceptable accuracy in my 1868 rifle.

Jerry Liles

[StrawHat]

The Gov't spec for the rifling twist is 1 turn in 42 inches. My 1866 is cut that way.

The 1865 and the 1866 were both made by machining the breech end of muzzleloading barrels and fitting breechblocks to the cut out portion. These models are where the idea of the "weak" trapdoor action are correct. I do not advise using anything but black powder in these models. Some use 5744 but I have and use black powder. It is more accurate in my rifle.

Good luck and have fun!

Kevin

[Toymaker]

Skank Killer - the twist info was up under ADDITIONAL INFORMATION, but StrawHat nailed it also. My brother looked every where for a sizer and couldn't find one. He was looking for something to fit my Lyman lubrisizer :? . Told him it wasn't going to happen and sent him a link to a push through.
13Echo - Great points. When I slugged the bore and saw that 3and3 pop out I knew I was going to have to knock the rust off my geometry. Fortunately there was also an article in a recent MuzzleBlasts about doing it. Just to be sure, it quit raining today so I'm going to cast and will do my usual measurements on a couple of bullets and use a couple to slug the bore again and check the fit.
You must have read where I thought the purchased bullets are too hard (ugly too. I think they're out of round and cast backwards.) Anyway, I'm going to cast pure lead to start, test, and then start adding a bit of tin. I haven't decided for sure if 30:1 or 20:1 will be the top alloy. The powder charge and how much bump it gives will factor into that.
I'm definitely not "stuck" on 70 grains of powder. I'll be making some 65 grain loads for brother to test too. I think 60 won't fill the cartridge enough. Unlike muzzle loaders I've found just 2 grains can make a difference in a cartridge - have you found that too?
Crimp . . . now there's something I don't do with a black powder load. I anneal, but once they're fire formed they don't get sized, expanded, or crimped. I'll trim and bevel as needed and clean, of course.
StrawHat - yeppers, that's the same thing my brother told me. And once I heard that I figured "Black Powder Only". I also figure the black powder of 1866 was less potent than the powder of today. So a smaller charge, like 13Echo's, could very likely be the equivalent. I also know that the pound of Goex FFg my brother gave me, which was bought 10+ years ago, looked lighter in color, courser in texture and was different in performance from my Goex FFg purchased last year.

Little bro is at the beach terrorizing the sharks next week. So I'll get casting done, but loading and testing will have to wait a while. I want to thank everyone for their input. If I missed commenting on something, it wasn't intentional. I've read every word and thank you for your input.

[13Echo]

In my rifle I found the crimp seemed to help. I think it retards release of the bullet a bit allowing the bullet to bump up a bit better to fit the bore. I do find a crimp helps with a bit undersized 405gr bullet in my 1884 rifle. As for alloys pure lead will likely cast a bit undersized. Just a touch of tin helps the metal fill the mold. I like 30:1 for this type bullet and use 20:1 or 16:1 for a more pointed or "ballistically" sophisticated bullet to cut down on bullet nose slump. The harder the alloy the more critical the diameter of the bullet related to groove diameter becomes.

Jerry Liles

As for powder potency the best BP of a hundred years ago is the equal or better of the best today. I'm not sure how that would equate with military loads though.

[Toymaker]

Got some bullets cast from my brother's Lyman 515139 mold. They're 0.725 inch long, 0.514 inch diameter at the band, 0.5145 inch at the middle and 0.515 inch at the base. Cast from pure lead they weigh 358 grains.
Talked him into meeting me at the range this afternoon. Took a bullet and put it through the bore of the rifle, nose first, from the muzzle. It was tight going in, then about 12 inches down it loosened up and could be pushed down to the breech by hand. The bullet had nicely defined striations from the rifling.
Does this mean it's bigger at the breech end and tightens as it approaches the bore? Maybe. Or did the bullet just get formed to the bore after 12 inches and glide the rest of the way? Maybe. BUT it isn't going to be a problem. If the bore is larger at the breech end the pure lead bullet is going to obdurate and fill the bore. Then it's going to get squeezed as it goes up and exits the bore. I use a card wad but he should watch for signs of "burn-through".
Now he's headed for the beach and testing is over for 10 days. Don't worry, I've already warned the sharks so they can vacate.

[13Echo]

A tapered bore with some choke at the muzzle can be a good thing and many consider it desirable. Many of the best BP target rifles have a bit of taper. It's certainly much better than the other way.

Jerry Liles

[StrawHat]

You pushed the boolit into the muzzle and once it was sized and engraved it became much easier to push through the bore. I am not aware that the Arsenal built a taper into the bore of the single shot rifles.

Kevin

[MIEagle]

Some great reads here. Perhaps I missed it, but I would add to make sure you soften the fouling after each shot, make a blow tube for your rifle. I made one for my '73 as a wiping rod, even made with Delrin, is difficult to use. I use a Delrin wiping rod for my Browning 1885 BPCR and a blow tube for my '73. Hard, crusty fouling will cause flyers even with match grade ammo.f Good shooting!

[Toymaker]

MIEagle - I prefer a damp patch (moosemilk) for keeping the fouling soft.

Well, my brother got a new mold, got back from vacation and we were supposed to get together last Tuesday so I could get it and do some casting.

Unfortunately I was hospitalized on Monday with a heart attack. So further testing is down the road a ways.

[StrawHat]

...Unfortunately I was hospitalized on Monday with a heart attack...

Thoughts and prayers to you and the family.

Kevin

[Hiwall55]

I'll be praying for you,get well soon.

[Toymaker]

Thanks all. I'm doing really well. The forced inactivity so I can heal is a PIA. I want to cast but my pots weigh 20 and 40 pounds and I'm not supposed to lift more than 5 pounds. Regular GP is happy with my progress and I see the cardiologist the middle of this week.

[Ed in North Texas]

Here is a link to my post (#9 in the thread) in Single Shot Rifles with a picture of the results of my NYSM .50-70 load:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?234528-new-york-militia-remington-rolling-block-50-70&highlight=

70 grains KIK 2f, .030 card wad, Lyman 515141 sized .515 w/home brewed lube compression only to the degree needed to seat the boolit.

[KenH]

I know this is an older thread, but I have a question. Being new to BPCR shooting, I hear about compressing the BP. In this thread it mentioned compressing BP by 1/3" or so. Does this much compressing not cause some of the BP grains to crumble - making FFFg from FFg from part of load? I'm sure somebody has checked this by compressing a load, then pouring powder out to check how much (if any) crumbing happens.

Thanks to all for helping to educate me.

Ken H>

[13Echo]

Compressed loads of BP have been the norm since BP cartridges were developed. If you break down an original .45-70 you'll find the powder is a near solid mass. However when you pick it apart you will see it is still in grains that are just tightly packed together. Compressed fg will still burn slower than compressed ffg.

Compressed charges tend to burn cleaner and more completely than loose powder and some powders seem to require more compression than others. It is often reported that Swiss works fine with drop tubing and minimal compression while Goex does better with compression. Compression is a method of achieving a consistent density of the powder charge with less dense powders requiring more compression.

How deep you can compress a charge also depends on the powder column height. To say a certain powder requires so much of an inch compression will depend on the cartridge and consequently how long the powder column is. The compression required of a full charge in a in a .45-70 might split the case in a .45 colt or achieve densities that are not possible while the same in a .45-120 will be almost unnoticeable.

Jerry Liles

[KenH]

Thanks for the info Jerry - I came from smokeless reloading many years ago and did some compressed loads, but nothing like 1/3" in a 45-70 case. I think I can see if BP is really compressed to almost a solid mass could make it burn more consistently... Thanks again.

Ken H>

[Toymaker]

Ken,
Several years ago there was an article in MuzzleBlasts magazine, the official publication of the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association, about compressing black powder. The article only addressed Goex and only in muzzle loaders, but it tested compression from just placing the ball on the powder up to 100 pounds of pressure. Testing equipment was simple (bathroom scale, etc.) and the methodology may have been faulted, but it was interesting.
When the powder loads were extracted and examined some "crumbling" was observed at higher compression pressures, but it was deemed insignificant until they reached 90 pounds. The powder grains were just more tightly fitted together. The more pressure applied, the tighter the cake of powder.
The most efficient burn of the powder occurred when it had been packed at 65 pounds of pressure.
Well, rifle, ram rod and I spent some time with the bathroom scale learning to "feel" that 65 pounds of pressure. Don't know if it was A factor, THE factor or just a mind trick, but I started beating myself with higher scores and better competition results.
So when I started playing with BPCR I was real careful about powder compression and have definitely seen different results when it is the only component of the load that's been changed.

[toot]

FIRE FORMED DIXIE BRASS- can some one let me know what it is made from and into what?

[ndnchf]

FIRE FORMED DIXIE BRASS- can some one let me know what it is made from and into what?

I don't understand your question. Dixie 50-70 is new made with their own headstamp. It's not remade from anything else. I have cut some down for use in my 56-50 Spencer.

[toot]

ndnchf, on page #1 reply #12 SKANK KILLER put a PS: at the bottom of the reply, PS: best brass so far is fire formed DIXIE. that is what I was referring to. sorry for the confusion.

[ndnchf]

Oh, ok. Got it.

[Tom Herman]

I also figure the black powder of 1866 was less potent than the powder of today.

First off, I hope that you are feeling well and fully back to health.
The powders of yesteryear were more potent than today's powder: Something has been lost in the manufacturing process.
Whatever that "tribal knowledge" was, it's gone, and the powder manufactured today runs less velocity than the old powder.