am I missing something?

[Indiana shooter]

Okay, so I'm graduating from just making boolits to customizing the alloy to make it do what I want and I would like to know that I have understood what I have learned so far.

Antimony: bumps up bhn but can make boolits break up on impact. Also allows hardening when water dropped.

Arsenic: adds a lot of bhn and allows heat treating but makes boolits brittle.

Copper: trace amounts allows boolits to hold together during expansion.

Tin: lowers surface tension for a "cleaner" cast. Slightly bumps up bhn and helps hold the boolits together during expansion.

Silver: adds hardness?

Both silver and copper is in reference to the small amounts found in solder.

Am I right about all of that? Am I missing something?

Thanks in advance.

[Cowboy_Dan]

Only problem I see is that Arsenic only "adds" to BHN when water dropping or heat treating. What it does is act as a grain refiner for the Antimony. Although I have no idea what, if anything, Silver would do to your alloy. For all I know it may just dross off, but I have a hunch it may act like Copper.

[runfiverun]

silver is a hardener.
arsenic doesn't add brittleness it does however increase surface tension.
Tin is actually a surface wetter which allows the alloy to flow easier when it's in a liquid state, it however does not allow it to flow better in a solid state.
the tin nodules pull apart and pop.

each piece of the alloy can change what it does in the matrix depending on the amount used and what else is in the alloy.
low amounts of antimony without tin actually allow the lead to slide and glide over itself and is malleable.
that's how they extrude it into pipe and came for stained glass windows.

[Indiana shooter]

Okay runfiverun, so if I'm understanding you right there's no absolute here? Meaning, lets say I'm making hp bullets, I test the boolits and they break apart. The solution may not be as simple as adding more soft lead to the mix (to dilute the antimony) and re-hardening with a tin/copper solder? All elements in the alloy has to work together for your desired result?

I'm asking this question because I just got a hp/cp mold fron noe. Yesterday I cast 50 each of both hp and cp with a 20-1 alloy, no antimony and trace silver. I also cast 30 each of approx 96.5/2/1.5 lead, tin, antimony with trace silver. All air cooled, I am waiting to test as soon as they cure. I am looking for a good hunting boolit for a .44 mag that won't break apart.

[popper]

First, most of the Pb free solders have too much Sn to be useful, other than just adding Sn. You mix is 40:1 with some Sb and as you say, a trace amount of silver. I mistakenly mixed 40:1 for 40SW, it didn't work at all.

[runfiverun]

one great way to test them is with a hammer.
but yeah you got the idea.
cutting down an alloy with antimony and tin in it with more soft lead is a great way to get better malleability.

now of course you will lose some hardness and this might make it harder to get the boolit down the barrel.
you can actually take the antimony level down to a lower percentage but retain the bhn by using precipitation cooling [water dropping]
this doesn't affect how the softer [alloyed] boolit will react on game although it does re-arrange the molecular structure of the alloy some.
and adding copper to the mix is done in a couple of different way's one way works better when air cooled and one works better when water dropped because of the internal matrix. [the copper binding [being held in solution] to different things in the alloy]

I know this is a bit confusing but thinking of an alloy in just one state doesn't help you understand the dynamics of how things work under pressure, rotational stresses, or when striking a water based medium.

here is the great thing about the 44 mag it works with a flat nose and two holes in the animal at medium velocity's.
making a mushroom takes a lot of effort and decreases your chances of having that second hole, it increases your chances of something going wrong [shearing or veering or worse yet complete nose failure at point of entry]

in my 44 mag I use a 250 gr rnfp or the 429241 both cast from 1/2.5/96.5 alloy, sn-sb-pb, there might be some copper in there [shrug] i air cool them. [and the tin is really lower than 1%]
I know at a velocity in the 10-1200 fps range I will penetrate in a straight line and poke through the shoulders of a deer without fail out to 100 or so yds. [it'll shoot through the ribs of a 6-800 pound cow too]
I use the same formula in my 45 colts and 41 mag's, they all do the same exact thing with very predicable results.

[Indiana shooter]

Runfiverun, thanks for the help.

As far as the flat nose bullet goes I have that covered with the 310 lee mold. I'm just tinkering with a cp boolit to see what I like best. I figured, with the right alloy, the cp will provide a bit of expansion but still have plenty of penetration.

[runfiverun]

it will for sure.
learning how to control that through alloy make-up and velocity at impact is a super good tool to have on your side.

for a good mushroom the more lead you have in the alloy the better it will work.
now if you combine that lead with just tin [and a gas check] you can have perfect mushrooms that you will recover 90% of he time. [with tin at 30-40 to1]
combine it again with just antimony [3-5%] and you get nearly the same results just further through the animal.
put the two together SbSn and you again get another performance, change their relationship and get another outcome.

jacketed bullets work the same way, change the cores make-up and you can slow down the upset, thin the nose section and you speed up the upset, change the anneal and skive the front section of the jacket and you again get a different result.

[bhn22]

Here's an article from one our former members that may also help you sort things out.
http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm

I do miss CBRick...

[62chevy]

Here's an article from one our former members that may also help you sort things out.
http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm

I do miss CBRick...

OK what happened to CBRick? He didn't get banned so is he just tired of the site or God forbid that great shooting range up above. Or is it the changing of the guard, 45Nut to #1, that has sent so many good poster packing.

[dubber123]

OK what happened to CBRick? He didn't get banned so is he just tired of the site or God forbid that great shooting range up above. Or is it the changing of the guard, 45Nut to #1, that has sent so many good poster packing.

I'd like to know too! He was very helpful to me whenever we spoke.

[scottfire1957]

Okay, so I'm graduating from just making boolits to customizing the alloy to make it do what I want and I would like to know that I have understood what I have learned so far.

Antimony: bumps up bhn but can make boolits break up on impact. Also allows hardening when water dropped.

Arsenic: adds a lot of bhn and allows heat treating but makes boolits brittle.

Copper: trace amounts allows boolits to hold together during expansion.

Tin: lowers surface tension for a "cleaner" cast. Slightly bumps up bhn and helps hold the boolits together during expansion.

Silver: adds hardness?

Both silver and copper is in reference to the small amounts found in solder.

Am I right about all of that? Am I missing something?

Thanks in advance.



Yes. Unless you are using certified pure and/or alloyed metals, it's all just a guess.

[bhn22]

Rick Kelter lives. He simply moved on to other boards.

[ascast]

Arsenic: adds a lot of bhn and allows heat treating but makes boolits brittle.


Arsenic increases surface tension a lot. It was used to make dropped shot pull into a perfect sphere quicker;i.e. lower shot tower. That process is not so common today. But if you score a load of old shot, or reclaimed old shot, it may have Arsenic in it. It tends to make bullits not fill out, as hot as you dare run your mold. Adding tin will fix it, but you may need to go 1 in 10 or there about. Avoid Loverign style bullets. Use for pistol bullits.
Also, shot is commonly graphite coated. Graphite is a thermal insulator so your pot will not heat up as fast. It is also hard wash out.
t

[RogerDat]

I think it boils down to one of two approaches. Pure known ingredients, working out exactly how they should be combined, at what temperature, with what cooling process. Or grab one of the standard HP alloy recipes dig around in the lead stash for stuff that should make something pretty close to that recipe, shoot, assess, adjust. Repeat as needed with your ingredients until you get the results you desire.

Someone has already figured out the alloy and process with enough detail to be repeatable by purchase of same alloy. Avoids reinventing the wheel at the cost of purchasing known ingredients. After all what is the exact antimony percentage of "those" WW ingots? Someplace between 2 and 3 percent.... but what percentage exactly?

You have what you have and going for a mix that will come out close to what others have reported using with the stuff you have will allow you to tailor the alloy recipe to what you actually have. Your WW's and your solder or pewter or... Once you know what works from your pantry, you cast a several hundred and store them for use as needed. You spend your time experimenting (casting, loading, and shooting) as opposed to your money buying exact alloys.

One possibly useful item to get is Babbitt lead with some tin and copper already in it. One way to work a bit of toughness into the cast boolit.