ohland
07-01-2015, 09:32 PM
These have always interested me. Though I would guess mounting the sight on the bolt shroud would remove any weight penalty on the firing pin... This is the genesis of the Lyman 103 sight.
I have offended the gods (lower case) of CB, and it refused the full text (23K vs 20K).
Expect the full text and the images on my Experiences page.
http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/Cast_Bullet/Vault/Cocking_Piece_Sight.html
https://books.google.com/books?id=gJkwAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA236&dq=lyman+piece+sight&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CHiUVb61O4TusAWx4pW4DQ&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=lyman%20piece%20sight&f=true
Vol 69, no. 8 - Jan 1, 1922, page 10-11
HUNTING SIGHTS by Major Townsend Whelen
(Continued from page 4)
...it at least 15 minutes earlier in the morning and later in the evening, and every hunter knows that these are the times that game is moving.
When I came back east from this trip I approached the Lyman Gun Sight Corporation on the subject, and the consequence was we got up together the first so-called bolt sight for the Springfield. I wanted the original sight near the eye, but I also wanted accurate and positive adjustments, both elevation and windage, reading to minutes of angle, which the original Lyman did not have. The result was the first Lyman No. 103 sight. It was well made in the Lyman tool room by a tool maker. Every part fitted perfectly, and to this day this sight has remained tight and accurate. Based on my experience with this sight I recommended the No. 103 most highly-—and thereby got myself into a lot of trouble. Theoretically the sight is an ideal one in a number of ways. You have the original Lyman, near the eye, and yet it flies away from the eye as the rifle is fired, hence can be used on rifles of heavy recoil. It has the proper adjustments for elevation and windage. I can not imagine a better sight than the original which was made for me, but please notice that it was made by hand and by an expert toolmaker. In regular production the sight has not been the success that I hoped it would be. It is a hard sight to produce by machinery without it sooner or later developing looseness and lost motion within itself. The cocking piece is not a very secure or constant place to mount it. Some cocking pieces on the Springfield develop a looseness all of their own, and some of them vary their position when the safety is on or off. The position of the sight interferes with a firm grip of the small of the stock so essential to good holding and proper trigger squeeze. The Lyman people have lately slightly redesigned this sight in an effort to correct the looseness which often develops, and I hope they succeed, but they can hardly stop the vagaries of the cocking piece or the interference with the grip of the right hand.
NOW, the sporting Springfield is such a superb hunting rifle that it seemed a darn shame that there was not a superb hunting sight to go with it. So I determined to see if I could not make one. I wanted the original Lyman principle of a large aperture and small disc near the eye, and I wanted all the positiveness, accuracy and strength of the adjustments as seen on the Lyman No. 48 sight. The sight must be securely mounted on the rifle, it must not interfere with the grip, and there must be absolutely no looseness in either the sight or its mounting. It must be strong and sturdy like the Lyman No. 48. After a lot of thinking over I evolved an idea in my mind, and then carried it out with the assistance of Mr. James V, Howe who is first and foremost a most excellent tool maker, and next a most enthusiastic rifleman and amateur gunsmith. The result is shown in the accompanying illustrations, an as amply justified all the time and labor put on it. First we found that in order to get the original Lyman principle of aiming with the front sight alone the aperture had to be three inches nearer the eye on the Springfield than the Lyman No. 48 aperture was placed. Obviously the place to put it was on the sleeve as it was not only in the right position, but the sight placed here would not interfere with the proper hand grip on the small of the stock. But the sleeve on the Springfield has a little movement all its own and is not a secure place to mount a sight. Also there is no place on it where the sight can be securely set. So we designed and made an entirely new sleeve. and this in turn necessitated making an entirely new form of safety. It will be noticed that the new sleeve is of such form that it makes an excellent base on which to place what is Practically a Lyman No. 48 slide.
The top of the slide is bent a little to the rear so as to bring the aperture a little nearer to the eve. otherwise it is essentially a Lyman No 48 slide placed on the left side instead of the right. Placing it on the left made it much easier to adjust and easier to see the graduations. It was necessary to assure the slide coming to absolutely the same place with reference to the receiver every time the bolt was opened and closed if the sight was to come to a constant position with respect to the front sight and barrel for every shot. We found that the tendency of the sleeve was to rotate slightly to the right, so on the under side of the sleeve and to the right of the cocking piece groove we placed a stop pin which abuts against the top of the tang of the receiver. On the opposite side of the under portion of the sleeve we placed a spring plunger which every time positively forces the sleeve over to the right to an absolutely constant position. When the bolt is closed the sleeve and entire sight is forcibly pressed to a constant place with reference to the receiver, consequently it is in exactly the same position for every shot. We improved the adjustments considerably by engraving the words “Up” and “Down” on the head of the elevation screw to show which way to move it to get the desired change in adjustment, and by putting “R” and “L” on the windgauge and windgauge screw to designate right and left windage, in each case with arrows pointing to show the direction to turn.
<snip!>
Cocking Piece Sights
BY VAN ALLEN LYMAN
With regard to sights mounted on the firing pin or cocking piece of a bolt-action rifle I would rise to remark that, broadly speaking, they are a “frost” and had better be left alone for serious work, unless one merely wishes to experiment with them out of curiosity. Then, for the love of Mike, do the experimenting long before you go in the game fields. You may change your mind, and want to make a change.
I am aware that this rather strong statement may call forth denunciations from many who have used such sights for years with perfect satisfaction and who prefer them to any other kind for the bolt action rifle. The fact remains, however, that, taken all in all, the cocking piece sight has not given general satisfaction to date, and the best proof of this is that, though it has been generally known for a long time, it is comparatively little used. From an optical point of view it has decided advantages over the receiver sight, and if it were as mechanically satisfactory it would have superseded the receiver sight long ago. The principal objections to the cocking piece sight are that it can not be depended on to keep in perfect alignment, and it is mechanically weaker and more liable to in jury than other types of sights. Also, it adds weight to the firing pin and renders it more sluggish in its action, though this may be more of a theoretical than a practical objection.
With a desire to get first-hand information on the subject (which is being passed along to fellow shooters for the reading), the writer once had a Lyman No. 103 sight fitted to a Springfield firing pin--a factory job. The sight was nicely fitted to the cocking piece, but when the gun was cocked the aperture would wobble sideways for nearly a sixteenth of an inch, due to natural looseness in the bolt mechanism clearances. Presumably all this looseness would disappear when the trigger was drawn, for, as a well-known rifleman said to me when explaining the virtues of this sight, “the bolt and all its parts will always settle down to the same place each time as the trigger is drawn, and naturally the sight comes to the same place, too; so any looseness in the first place is immaterial.” Did it do so? It positively did NOT. I know for a fact that his sights so rigged did exactly what he claimed for them, but his were super rifles, made pets of and hand finished with an expert's care and not the general run of factory stuff that Mr. General Public has to accept, and this also should be borne in mind.
The logical thing to do was to “make the fix” so the sight would come to the same place each time, and a couple of evenings were spent in grinding and polishing and working on the trigger mechanism. This did the work, almost. As the trigger was pulled the sight would come right to the same place each time, almost. But that “almost,” proven by a middle sight on the barrel, showed that the sight drawing down to exactly the same place every time was non-existent, at least on that particular rifle. Hope was not given up, however, and an attack was made along another line, that of tightening up the bolt mechanism all through so as to take out every bit of wiggle.
Space does not permit of telling in detail how this was done; suffice to say that the general procedure was to make every thing a few thousandths of an inch too tight and then dress down with fine emery cloth. The final result was a rifle having a firing pin with absolutely no shake to it at all, and incidentally a pretty stiffly working bolt in consequence. There was no play to the sight at all this time; it shot finely, as good as a No. 48 receiver sight would have done in the first place and with the added advantage of being close to the eye. But after a moderate amount of shooting had been done it was found that the sight was loosening up in the dovetail groove where windage adjustment is made. This was apparently caused by the unavoidable yank and shock that is necessarily given to the sight when firing. Taken all around, it didn’t work out in as satisfactory a manner as had been hoped for, and I knew then the reason for those occasional advertisements in the sporting magazines—somebody wanting to trade off a cocking-piece sight for one of the other kind.
<SNIP!>
A Defense of the Cocking Piece Sight
By WALTER B. WILSON
In the February 1 issue of ARMS AND THE MAN Mr. Van Allen Lyman arose to remark that sights mounted on the cocking piece of bolt action rifles were, broadly speaking, a “Frost” and had better be left alone for serious work. Broadly speaking, I share in his belief, although, in at least one case of a Lyman sight on the cocking piece of a Springfield, it is not a “Frost," but, on the contrary, is a most satisfactory arrangement and does return to absolutely the same place each time, with relation to the receiver every time the gun is cocked and the trigger drawn.
This particular Springfield, however, happens to have the most finely adjusted and smoothest working bolt and trigger mechanisms that I have ever seen on a bolt-action rifle, and since the present owner has had this rifle he has still further generally dolled up the workings by polishing with dimantine the bolt and bolt well, all cam surfaces, lug races, etc., beveled the cocking nose and sear and made various other adjustments, until there is no unnecessary drag or looseness in any detail, and this cocking piece does not “almost” return to the same place each time, but it does positively.
The writer has seen bolt guns with sights on the cocking-piece, that did, as Mr. Lyman has said, “return to the same place each time—“almost.”
Mr. Lyman closes his interesting piece on “Cocking Piece Sights" with the statement that his next attempt to fix a cocking—piece sight would be made by using a sight of the Marble flexible joint sort, changed over for use on the cocking-piece, and this statement gave me what I believe to be a good idea.
The next morning after reading his article I went to work to make a sight base which would receive a Marble upright and joint. This base was carefully made by hand of tool steel, and when it was finished the Marble mechanism fitted nicely. I happened to have a Marble sight with an up right and stem of just the right length to use in connection with the base and the cocking-piece of a Springfield.
<SNIP!>
Aperture Sight for the Cocking Piece
By VAL A. FYNN
IT is universally conceded that an aperture rear sight should be as near the eye as possible and that, in a bolt action rifle, the ideal location of such a sight is on the cocking piece. Unfortunately the cocking piece is movable when the arm is cocked and the position of any rear sight attached to it is therefore indefinite. Since with a 30" sight radius a displacement of the rear sight of 1/100th of an inch corresponds to a change of impact of 1.2 inches at 100 yards it is easily seen why such sights have not given general satisfaction. It does not appear that this defect can be eliminated by machining the bolt and receiver to closer limits. Substantially closer limits than now adopted in the best makes of bolt rifles are not practical for quantity production and even if they were all the play could not be taken out and the effect of wear at numerous points would still have to be contended with.
It has occurred to the writer that satisfactory results could be secured with an aperture sight on the cocking piece by providing means for positively locating said cocking piece, and therefore the rear sight, at the extreme end of its travel—when in the full cock position. The very fact that the play introduced by the unavoidable tooling tolerances allows the cocking piece to move practically in all directions makes it easy to positively locate it at any point of its travel without introducing undue friction or necessitating the use of appreciable effort. As soon as the trigger is pulled the cocking piece moves out of engagement with the locating means and completes its travel with no more interference than usual.
<SNIP!>
I have offended the gods (lower case) of CB, and it refused the full text (23K vs 20K).
Expect the full text and the images on my Experiences page.
http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/Cast_Bullet/Vault/Cocking_Piece_Sight.html
https://books.google.com/books?id=gJkwAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA236&dq=lyman+piece+sight&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CHiUVb61O4TusAWx4pW4DQ&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=lyman%20piece%20sight&f=true
Vol 69, no. 8 - Jan 1, 1922, page 10-11
HUNTING SIGHTS by Major Townsend Whelen
(Continued from page 4)
...it at least 15 minutes earlier in the morning and later in the evening, and every hunter knows that these are the times that game is moving.
When I came back east from this trip I approached the Lyman Gun Sight Corporation on the subject, and the consequence was we got up together the first so-called bolt sight for the Springfield. I wanted the original sight near the eye, but I also wanted accurate and positive adjustments, both elevation and windage, reading to minutes of angle, which the original Lyman did not have. The result was the first Lyman No. 103 sight. It was well made in the Lyman tool room by a tool maker. Every part fitted perfectly, and to this day this sight has remained tight and accurate. Based on my experience with this sight I recommended the No. 103 most highly-—and thereby got myself into a lot of trouble. Theoretically the sight is an ideal one in a number of ways. You have the original Lyman, near the eye, and yet it flies away from the eye as the rifle is fired, hence can be used on rifles of heavy recoil. It has the proper adjustments for elevation and windage. I can not imagine a better sight than the original which was made for me, but please notice that it was made by hand and by an expert toolmaker. In regular production the sight has not been the success that I hoped it would be. It is a hard sight to produce by machinery without it sooner or later developing looseness and lost motion within itself. The cocking piece is not a very secure or constant place to mount it. Some cocking pieces on the Springfield develop a looseness all of their own, and some of them vary their position when the safety is on or off. The position of the sight interferes with a firm grip of the small of the stock so essential to good holding and proper trigger squeeze. The Lyman people have lately slightly redesigned this sight in an effort to correct the looseness which often develops, and I hope they succeed, but they can hardly stop the vagaries of the cocking piece or the interference with the grip of the right hand.
NOW, the sporting Springfield is such a superb hunting rifle that it seemed a darn shame that there was not a superb hunting sight to go with it. So I determined to see if I could not make one. I wanted the original Lyman principle of a large aperture and small disc near the eye, and I wanted all the positiveness, accuracy and strength of the adjustments as seen on the Lyman No. 48 sight. The sight must be securely mounted on the rifle, it must not interfere with the grip, and there must be absolutely no looseness in either the sight or its mounting. It must be strong and sturdy like the Lyman No. 48. After a lot of thinking over I evolved an idea in my mind, and then carried it out with the assistance of Mr. James V, Howe who is first and foremost a most excellent tool maker, and next a most enthusiastic rifleman and amateur gunsmith. The result is shown in the accompanying illustrations, an as amply justified all the time and labor put on it. First we found that in order to get the original Lyman principle of aiming with the front sight alone the aperture had to be three inches nearer the eye on the Springfield than the Lyman No. 48 aperture was placed. Obviously the place to put it was on the sleeve as it was not only in the right position, but the sight placed here would not interfere with the proper hand grip on the small of the stock. But the sleeve on the Springfield has a little movement all its own and is not a secure place to mount a sight. Also there is no place on it where the sight can be securely set. So we designed and made an entirely new sleeve. and this in turn necessitated making an entirely new form of safety. It will be noticed that the new sleeve is of such form that it makes an excellent base on which to place what is Practically a Lyman No. 48 slide.
The top of the slide is bent a little to the rear so as to bring the aperture a little nearer to the eve. otherwise it is essentially a Lyman No 48 slide placed on the left side instead of the right. Placing it on the left made it much easier to adjust and easier to see the graduations. It was necessary to assure the slide coming to absolutely the same place with reference to the receiver every time the bolt was opened and closed if the sight was to come to a constant position with respect to the front sight and barrel for every shot. We found that the tendency of the sleeve was to rotate slightly to the right, so on the under side of the sleeve and to the right of the cocking piece groove we placed a stop pin which abuts against the top of the tang of the receiver. On the opposite side of the under portion of the sleeve we placed a spring plunger which every time positively forces the sleeve over to the right to an absolutely constant position. When the bolt is closed the sleeve and entire sight is forcibly pressed to a constant place with reference to the receiver, consequently it is in exactly the same position for every shot. We improved the adjustments considerably by engraving the words “Up” and “Down” on the head of the elevation screw to show which way to move it to get the desired change in adjustment, and by putting “R” and “L” on the windgauge and windgauge screw to designate right and left windage, in each case with arrows pointing to show the direction to turn.
<snip!>
Cocking Piece Sights
BY VAN ALLEN LYMAN
With regard to sights mounted on the firing pin or cocking piece of a bolt-action rifle I would rise to remark that, broadly speaking, they are a “frost” and had better be left alone for serious work, unless one merely wishes to experiment with them out of curiosity. Then, for the love of Mike, do the experimenting long before you go in the game fields. You may change your mind, and want to make a change.
I am aware that this rather strong statement may call forth denunciations from many who have used such sights for years with perfect satisfaction and who prefer them to any other kind for the bolt action rifle. The fact remains, however, that, taken all in all, the cocking piece sight has not given general satisfaction to date, and the best proof of this is that, though it has been generally known for a long time, it is comparatively little used. From an optical point of view it has decided advantages over the receiver sight, and if it were as mechanically satisfactory it would have superseded the receiver sight long ago. The principal objections to the cocking piece sight are that it can not be depended on to keep in perfect alignment, and it is mechanically weaker and more liable to in jury than other types of sights. Also, it adds weight to the firing pin and renders it more sluggish in its action, though this may be more of a theoretical than a practical objection.
With a desire to get first-hand information on the subject (which is being passed along to fellow shooters for the reading), the writer once had a Lyman No. 103 sight fitted to a Springfield firing pin--a factory job. The sight was nicely fitted to the cocking piece, but when the gun was cocked the aperture would wobble sideways for nearly a sixteenth of an inch, due to natural looseness in the bolt mechanism clearances. Presumably all this looseness would disappear when the trigger was drawn, for, as a well-known rifleman said to me when explaining the virtues of this sight, “the bolt and all its parts will always settle down to the same place each time as the trigger is drawn, and naturally the sight comes to the same place, too; so any looseness in the first place is immaterial.” Did it do so? It positively did NOT. I know for a fact that his sights so rigged did exactly what he claimed for them, but his were super rifles, made pets of and hand finished with an expert's care and not the general run of factory stuff that Mr. General Public has to accept, and this also should be borne in mind.
The logical thing to do was to “make the fix” so the sight would come to the same place each time, and a couple of evenings were spent in grinding and polishing and working on the trigger mechanism. This did the work, almost. As the trigger was pulled the sight would come right to the same place each time, almost. But that “almost,” proven by a middle sight on the barrel, showed that the sight drawing down to exactly the same place every time was non-existent, at least on that particular rifle. Hope was not given up, however, and an attack was made along another line, that of tightening up the bolt mechanism all through so as to take out every bit of wiggle.
Space does not permit of telling in detail how this was done; suffice to say that the general procedure was to make every thing a few thousandths of an inch too tight and then dress down with fine emery cloth. The final result was a rifle having a firing pin with absolutely no shake to it at all, and incidentally a pretty stiffly working bolt in consequence. There was no play to the sight at all this time; it shot finely, as good as a No. 48 receiver sight would have done in the first place and with the added advantage of being close to the eye. But after a moderate amount of shooting had been done it was found that the sight was loosening up in the dovetail groove where windage adjustment is made. This was apparently caused by the unavoidable yank and shock that is necessarily given to the sight when firing. Taken all around, it didn’t work out in as satisfactory a manner as had been hoped for, and I knew then the reason for those occasional advertisements in the sporting magazines—somebody wanting to trade off a cocking-piece sight for one of the other kind.
<SNIP!>
A Defense of the Cocking Piece Sight
By WALTER B. WILSON
In the February 1 issue of ARMS AND THE MAN Mr. Van Allen Lyman arose to remark that sights mounted on the cocking piece of bolt action rifles were, broadly speaking, a “Frost” and had better be left alone for serious work. Broadly speaking, I share in his belief, although, in at least one case of a Lyman sight on the cocking piece of a Springfield, it is not a “Frost," but, on the contrary, is a most satisfactory arrangement and does return to absolutely the same place each time, with relation to the receiver every time the gun is cocked and the trigger drawn.
This particular Springfield, however, happens to have the most finely adjusted and smoothest working bolt and trigger mechanisms that I have ever seen on a bolt-action rifle, and since the present owner has had this rifle he has still further generally dolled up the workings by polishing with dimantine the bolt and bolt well, all cam surfaces, lug races, etc., beveled the cocking nose and sear and made various other adjustments, until there is no unnecessary drag or looseness in any detail, and this cocking piece does not “almost” return to the same place each time, but it does positively.
The writer has seen bolt guns with sights on the cocking-piece, that did, as Mr. Lyman has said, “return to the same place each time—“almost.”
Mr. Lyman closes his interesting piece on “Cocking Piece Sights" with the statement that his next attempt to fix a cocking—piece sight would be made by using a sight of the Marble flexible joint sort, changed over for use on the cocking-piece, and this statement gave me what I believe to be a good idea.
The next morning after reading his article I went to work to make a sight base which would receive a Marble upright and joint. This base was carefully made by hand of tool steel, and when it was finished the Marble mechanism fitted nicely. I happened to have a Marble sight with an up right and stem of just the right length to use in connection with the base and the cocking-piece of a Springfield.
<SNIP!>
Aperture Sight for the Cocking Piece
By VAL A. FYNN
IT is universally conceded that an aperture rear sight should be as near the eye as possible and that, in a bolt action rifle, the ideal location of such a sight is on the cocking piece. Unfortunately the cocking piece is movable when the arm is cocked and the position of any rear sight attached to it is therefore indefinite. Since with a 30" sight radius a displacement of the rear sight of 1/100th of an inch corresponds to a change of impact of 1.2 inches at 100 yards it is easily seen why such sights have not given general satisfaction. It does not appear that this defect can be eliminated by machining the bolt and receiver to closer limits. Substantially closer limits than now adopted in the best makes of bolt rifles are not practical for quantity production and even if they were all the play could not be taken out and the effect of wear at numerous points would still have to be contended with.
It has occurred to the writer that satisfactory results could be secured with an aperture sight on the cocking piece by providing means for positively locating said cocking piece, and therefore the rear sight, at the extreme end of its travel—when in the full cock position. The very fact that the play introduced by the unavoidable tooling tolerances allows the cocking piece to move practically in all directions makes it easy to positively locate it at any point of its travel without introducing undue friction or necessitating the use of appreciable effort. As soon as the trigger is pulled the cocking piece moves out of engagement with the locating means and completes its travel with no more interference than usual.
<SNIP!>