1911 Failure to battery

[CJD]

I am new to this forum as well as shooting cast boolits so appologize if this seems like a stupid question. I aquired some cast 230 grain .452 WC that I loaded to a major power factor ( approx 800fps) and shot in my SR 1911 Ruger and got off about 25 rounds before they started failing to go into battery. I am thinking that the sizing lube is causing this, so should I be cleaning the lube off of all the bullets before firing them and if so what should I be using to clean them? I beleive the sizing lube is a waxy base. Prior to trying the cast projectiles I shot about 100 rnds of copper jacketed wc with all going into battery.

[Jonesy]

Do a plunk test in the barrel to check for headspacing. Most likely your COL is a bit too long. My lee 228 RN mold will only make reliably feeding rounds at around 1.90 COL. Easiest way I've found is to get a fired case, set a bullet loosely into it, and chamber it with the barrel removed so you can take the measurement when the headspacing is right. Just push it on a flat surface to get it to sit flush, and consider dropping powder charge a bit to keep in mind reduced case capacity. The COL they give you in reloading manuals seem more like a ballpark guideline, you really have to fit the round to your particular gun to get reliable feeding.

[DrCaveman]

Not a stupid question, pretty common really.

Others will chime in with more questions about specifics of your load, but my bet is that your problem has to do with seating depth and/or degree of taper crimp.

Not really sure what you mean by "sizing lube". 45 acp shells dont require lube for sizing with any modern (1970-now) carbide dies...if you acquired .452" boolits you probably didnt run them through a sizer die (or did you?) so no special lube in that (non) step... Maybe you just mean "boolit lube" which serves to help provide a gas seal and friction reduction while a boolit is slamming down your barrel...generally no need to remove this from the nose of a boolit, in my experience... Let's see what others have to say

Jaxket bullets are usually sized a little smaller, for that reason they chamber easier. Properly sized cast boolits can be a bit more sensitive to crimp and seating depth. Try a little more crimp!

Welcome to the forum, i hope you stick around and get some questions answered, and get that ruger shooting good!

[Cmm_3940]

First, make sure the headspace is correct.

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd195/cm6259/23c235384bd95866834390d218174804.jpg

Seat and crimp in seperate steps. If you do it as one step, a ridge of lead will get plowed up which will cause problems.

Your taper crimp should be about .469"-.470"

[Virginia John]

Manufactured jacketed bullets will shoot in anything. With lead and in particular .452 you need to be mindful of your barrels throught, crimp and headspace, everything these guys said above.

[RobS]

lube build up and or possible led ring from sharp throat I would check both issue see if this is case.

Very likely candidate. Small amounts will scrap off the boolit until it will build up enough to not let the next round go full battery due to a ring of lead at the end of the chamber. You didn't see this with jacketed as these are smaller in diameter and harder.

[bangerjim]

I know there will be disagreements with this, but that is what this forum is all about...sharing ideas that work and don't work:

I had horrible loading problems with both my 1911's until I went to 451 sizing AND a LEE factory crimp die. Not a lot of crimp...just enough to pass the plunk test. You can screw up a case really bad and swage the lead if you crank down too hard, but the FCD gives you a perfect size case from front to back every time. Just like that com-load ammo that shoots perfect every time!

Now ALL my several styles of 45 cal boolits ALL chamber, cycle, and shoot perfectly in the 1911's!

Works for me! Can't understand why so many hate the FCD. Best die ever made. I use one on all my semi rounds....9,40,45.

I Powder Coat everything. I use NO sizing lube and NO grease lube on any of my boolits.

Good luck on your quest to finding a solution.

bangerjim

[Char-Gar]

There could be several possible causes. Post a clear picture of the troublesome reloads and I might be able to do more that guess or give you a list.

[gpidaho]

Jim beat me to it. I totally agree with the above. My Ruger 97 DC HATED cast boolits until I got the COL right and started using the FCD and PC. No more problems now, you just have to give a pistol what it wants. GP

[ole 5 hole group]

I never did find the FCD any better than any other seater - in fact, my preference is the Redding profile crimp.

My 1911's digest everything I load, and my OAL is 1.250 (sometimes a bit shorter, sometimes closer to 1.26) and I crimp 0.468 to 0.470. I set the crimp for 468 but use mixed brass and find the crimp measurements vary but they all shoot to the same grouping and feed without failure.


I load for other 1911's and some Sigs are real picky and both jacketed & cast need to be seated shorter, like 1.190 or thereabouts. Some even need Federal primers for consistent ignition, as WLP's sometimes need to be hit twice. Some of those Sigs were sent back for alleged repair and still won't ignite WLP's 100X100 - usually 1 to 3 out of 100 needed a second strike.


I think if the original poster seated a bit deeper & crimped to 0.468/0.469 all would be well.

[Bill*B]

COL is critical if you are loading round nose slugs - for a really good time, seat them far enough out that the rifling grabs them - then they won't chamber, and they're too tight to extract. Beautiful - a live round stuck out of battery.

I like the SWC profile as it gives a better visual indication of how deep they are, and that's less likely to happen - load them to just have a sliver of lead shoulder visible, (one member advised "a fingernail width" and that's about right) and do put a dial caliper on that case mouth after you crimp them. If the mouth diameter exceeds 0.470", adjust your crimp die to squeeze down tighter.

As mentioned in the previous posts, best feeding is with a case mouth diameter of just under 0.470" - and some guns won't feed at all if they are larger.

I'm convinced that many pistols get a bad rep for not feeding cast bullets because the case mouth hasn't been sized down. My SIG is a jam-o-matic with SWC bullets if I don't attend to that little detail - but a flawless feeder when I do.

[35remington]

FWIW.....I absolutely guarantee I can fix any and all chambering problems in any 45 ACP firearm without using a Lee factory crimp die, including those with your gun.

So can anyone else interested in what causes problems. All it takes is finding out what's wrong and addressing it. Measuring is the necessary first step.

[Bill*B]

One of my most used tools is a Lyman dial caliper - get the steel one - it's accurate and has proved to be durable.

[DougGuy]

Depending on the barrel throat, or, lack of, many barrels won't plunk a .452" loaded to the proper COA until they are throated. Very common. Same barrel will handle .451" til the cows come home but .452" more likely than not needs throated. I offer this service and also put some extra amount of 3° freebore between the chamber and the leade in to the rifling which really seems to cut groups noticeably.

Seating deeper than specified COA in loading data presents yet a second problem as a workaround to the first in that you must adjust load data for the shorter COA when the best thing to do is simply have the barrel throated. This lowers pressures, aids in feeding, greatly reduces leading, gives an increased velocity, and generally tightens groups.

Here is a barrel that has been throated and has probably .140" of freebore that is cut on a 3° taper. These shoot lights out with cast boolits..


http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/1911%20Crowning/DSC03632crop_zpsbdfdqfgc.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/1911%20Crowning/DSC03632crop_zpsbdfdqfgc.jpg.html)

[gpidaho]

Doug: I've been told before that throating would help my old Ruger 97. As you say, I've been working around the problem and have had good luck sized .451 which is what the boolit ends up when using the Lee FCD. I need to get with you soon on another project (Ruger Vaquero 44-40 cylinder) Hope to have you open it up for me. You know the problem there! Will PM ya as soon as I get two nickels to rub together. May just send along the 45 ACP barrel at the same time. GP

[35remington]

My P97 had no throat at all. It got throated.

I might point out that the degree of throat DG shows in the picture is not necessary for good functionality with all reasonably suitable ammo and I prefer not to go that far myself.

[DougGuy]

I did a little experiment with a 1911 I recently put together. Partially because the Glock guys that want their Lone Wolf barrels throated even longer than what you see there, to run .45 Super with heavy boolits seated out long. They say those barrels shoot lights out, so I got curious. I had 3 barrels for this 1911, two High Standard and one Colt.

I left the Colt barrel as it came from the factory, I throated the new NOS HS barrel with .080" worth of freebore, or maybe half what you see in the above photo, and I throated the used HS barrel out long, I think it may even be the one that is in the photo. You may be surprised at the results.

This is the long throated HS barrel, from about 10yds standing, using both hands and the trigger is horribly stiff and gritty, this was the first string of fire for this gun as it was newly assembled from new Auto Ordnance frame and internals and used WWII slide and internals. Load fired was 230gr plated HP 5.3gr 231, WLP primer WW brass.

Long throated HS barrel:
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/1911A1/HS-LongThroat_zps8rbolkau.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/1911A1/HS-LongThroat_zps8rbolkau.jpg.html)

Standard throated HS barrel:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/1911A1/HS-ShortThroat_zpsdc8k47s6.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/1911A1/HS-ShortThroat_zpsdc8k47s6.jpg.html)

Factory throated Colt barrel:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/1911A1/Colt-StockThroat_zpszjwozlqc.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/1911A1/Colt-StockThroat_zpszjwozlqc.jpg.html)

[35remington]

Thing is, my Bar Sto's and Karts are not throated excessively long and they shoot quite well, besides being the choice of bullseye shooters, many of which, including myself, who shoot cast bullets in them.

How is that picture possible, by the way? The top center group on the plates is the same in all three pictures yet two different groups show on the other two and the whole series of groups should be accumulative, not separate.

[DougGuy]

Easy.. image editing copy and paste. The 6" plate has 3 groups on it, by the time the last group was fired, it can be quite confusing so I simply copied over them to separate them. The first two photos are untouched, the last photo has the group from the second photo edited out.

Had I two Kart barrels, I would compare how they shoot and then do the same experiment on one barrel to see if there was any difference in groups, velocity, or leading. A longer throat isn't mechanically necessary to plunk given loads, but I think there could be advantages to it. Can't really explain why but the results I am seeing from those who have sent barrels in for throating, and in my own barrels, have been positive. As far as I know, there really hasn't been much comparison done in throat length, I haven't ever read much about it or heard much about it in the years I have been involved with the .45 ACP in the 1911 format. It's interesting why it seems to work like it does.

[tja6435]

Throat job fixed my failure to battery on my SR1911. No amount of fiddling with the dies, other than seating super short would fix the problem until I sent if off to be throated. Not a problem since

[35remington]

A too short throat is something I'm sympathetic with in terms of fixing it as a necessity. Can't stand the darn things, as as mentioned, it is often a mistake in allowing proper overall length in terms of feeding and overall suitability. It is not a stretch to suggest a decent and proper throat increases gun reliability, because it does.

DG, thought it might have been photoshopped, but I didn't want to say anything to avoid being accusatory and just let you say it. There are good reasons to photoshop, as here.

I am of the opinion that if a throat has a proper gentle angle to the start of the rifling cast bullet accuracy may occur if the throat is longer or properly shorter, especially if the throat is not noticeably larger than bullet diameter. While longer may do no harm in some instances if not most, my throats with enough clearance to admit any reasonable bullet shoot so well that I am loathe to change them just for the heck of it.

I feel it is the barrel quality, rifling taper angle and presence of a throat that does it. Good enough for me. Consider me a minimalist of sorts, as in enough is good enough. It has been for me.

How about a chronograph test on poor barrel before throating and improved barrel with long but concentric and not overlarge throat?

[bedbugbilly]

CID - I don't load 45 ACP but do reload 9mm - not a whole lot of difference when it comes to head spacing. A lot of good suggestions already . . . all I load is cast so I'll just ask anyway . . . have you measured your cartridges that would chamber all the way and allow the slide back in to battery?

I load my 9 on a Lee 4 die set. Yada yada yada on the FCD . . some like 'em and some don't - I view it like an item of food - it's all personal taste.

If you are new at the reloading . . . you might want to get a "cartridge gauge" for the 45 ACP and keep it handy on the bench. Every so often . . slip oe of the reloads in to check it - that will tell you if it is within specs or not as far as the cartridge goes. They run around $20 and are well worth it to have in your "kit". I have one for most of the calibers I load . . and on a cartridge like a 9mm, I randomly check them as they come off the press.

[DougGuy]

How about a chronograph test on poor barrel before throating and improved barrel with long but concentric and not overlarge throat?

When I get enough rounds that I feel are consistent and set them aside into a "control" group, I can try the 3 barrels again.

So far, I have not found one detrimental effect of the longer throat. As you say the diameter of the throat is important that it isn't overly large, but from what I have seen in a bunch of barrels, it works similar to a Taylor throat which aligns the boolit perfectly within the bore before it hits the rifling. Not sure why it works, just that it works.

[CJD]

Wow, Thanks a lot guys. You all sure have lots of good info to try. I will start with the plunk test and checking the overall cartridge length. The cast bullets I got are .452 and are SWC, look to be the same profile as the copper jacketed ones the were feeding ok. I am using Lee carbide 3 die set and have loaded copper jacketed RN with no problems. Some of the copper jacketed SWC did fail to go into battery at first so am thinking the bullet seating die could be adjusted to seat a bit deeper to the 1.90 as recommended in one of the posts. What should I use to wipe the bullets down to remove the waxy substance that is on them, that building up in the throat of the barrel must be a contributing factor??

[CJD]

Hey Doug,

Just out of curiosity what would be the cost of throating the barrel be. Would there be any issues in shipping as I am up in Canada?

[DougGuy]

I usually spray some brake clean on a paper towel and wipe finished loads clean.

Cannot ship gun parts across our borders without proper federal forms and a LOT of $$ paid to do so afaik. There has to be a smith somewhere in CA with a throating reamer that knows how to use it.

Under the circumstances I would try to get hold of a .451" or .4515" sizer and just size so the rounds plunk and then you can still seat them to the COA that is in the load data. Usually most 1911s have a "sweet spot" for COA that feeds really reliably and most often than not it isn't the shortened COA that they like the most. The longer you can seat and still feed in the magazine (and not knock the slide stop into locking the slide open from the boolit hitting the part that sticks in the magazine) generally works better. YMMV...

The Lee FCD won't really help your loads pass the plunk test as they only size the outside of the brass and won't affect the diameter of the boolit that is in front of the case mouth.

I have a Kahr CW45 that I carry and it will not in any way shape or form begin to chamber any round with a boolit greater than .451" and me with no fewer than 4 throating reamers for .45 caliber, have no intention of sticking one in the barrel and reaming it out. I used some plated 230gr swaged HP boolits from IQ Metals sized .451" and it gobbles them up flawlessly. Shoots em really well too!

You should be able to enjoy the same amount of success with careful sizing and then seat to your chosen COA with no issues.

I often tell people that seating deeper just creates a secondary problem as a workaround to the first problem, which sometimes is more dangerous than throating the barrel or sizing smaller in that it sits the boolit deeper in the case and unless one adjusts load data to compensate for this, they can invite themselves into a potential KB easier than they think. Plus, once seated deeper, if there is ANY boolit set back at all, the effects and/or consequences of such set back would be much more dramatic because of the already deeper seating than simply sizing the boolits smaller and seating them out to the proper COA.

That is one sure fire way of overcoming any plunk and feed issues without creating other issues that you have to deal with at the loading bench.

[Blackwater]

I've had several through the years, and each was a little different from the others. When it comes right down to an individual gun, be it any type, you really have to learn that particular example because they're all ultimately individuals, just like we are. However, there's a couple of things that have been consistent through all of them, and one is that if I was having failure to go fully into battery, it was almost always due to seating and crimping in a single step. What happens when we do this is that the bullet is still being shoved down into the case as the crimp starts to form, and as the crimp is applied, the bullet is still being shoved downward, so the case mouth shaves a tiny little ring of lead during the bullet's downward movement in the die, and that stacks up right in front of the case mouth. Lead is soft, so the first several shots will work, but as this tiny little ring of lead shaves off and builds up at the chamber mouth, thus giving you a shortened chamber due to that buildup. Then, of course, the slide CAN'T go into battery due to the built up ring of lead at the head of the chamber. Very simple, really, but it took me a lot of time to figure all this out, and start crimping in a separate step.

This little detail, if you carry one for SD, may one day prove critical, so it's good to know about it. None of us LIKES to add a new step, but it's really not nearly as bad as the dreading of it would seem to be once we just do it, and see the difference. The trouble comes more from our reluctance to do it right and just stick with the "easier" and "faster" way, but once you shoot totally reliable ammo, the light WILL go on, I promise, and there's really NO substitute for having really good and reliable ammo that you know will feed right in your particular gun.

Only other major factor in loading .45's is OAL, and you really have to do a little experimenting to see what your gun likes, and feeds best with. Manuals usually (but not always) give the OAL tested, but each bullet design will have its own preference in OAL in order to feed reliably. The smaller the gun and shorter the barrel, the more critical this will generally be. It's just the tiny little "price" we pay for using one of the greatest guns ever invented, and all the time at the range we spend dealing with failure to go into battery is eliminated. Just crimp in a separate step, where the bullet is no longer being pushed downward as the crimp is applied, and you'll eliminate 97+% of all your failure to go into battery problems. You're really just trading some time with problems for the time to fix the situation, really, so there's really no "more time" spent in doing it right to begin with. Try it. I think you'll like it.

[bangerjim]

If you are new at the reloading . . . you might want to get a "cartridge gauge" for the 45 ACP and keep it handy on the bench. Every so often . . slip oe of the reloads in to check it - that will tell you if it is within specs or not as far as the cartridge goes. They run around $20 and are well worth it to have in your "kit". I have one for most of the calibers I load . . and on a cartridge like a 9mm, I randomly check them as they come off the press.

MAX CART GAUGES-------a must have for anyone that loads a lot! And wants those loads to work......every round.

I have one for every cal I load for.....even 38's and 45LC's. Has saved me a lot of wasted time at the range with non-loadable carts. You can do it on the cheap and use your gun cylinder or barrel, but that is so much of a PITA to do while you reloading. Spend the $20 or so and get the real tool. I use mine every time I stuff lead into cases. I made a max gauge on the lathe for my 38/357's but ended up ordering the real thing this week. I just like pro stuff.


And when they will NOT fit in the gauge, I use the FCD to get the case consistent from front to back...adjusted so it will NOT swage the boolit, as so many slam the FCD about. If adjusted AND used correctly, it is an amazing die.

bangerjim

[DougGuy]

I use the FCD to get the case consistent from front to back...adjusted so it will NOT swage the boolit, as so many slam the FCD about. If adjusted AND used correctly, it is an amazing die.

bangerjim This is not to be argumentative at all but...

How do you adjust the carbide ring in the bottom of the FCD? The FCD is in fact a carbide sizing die, with a solid carbide ring in the bottom that is forced over the case so that it compresses any bulges that the boolit may have caused to appear on the outside of the case when it was seated.

Taper crimp die, now that's a different story AND a totally different die. The taper crimp die and FCD don't do the same thing.

The FCD gets a bad rap for swaging boolits down inside the case and if the boolit is over .452" yes it will do just that. It won't be .452" after you run the loaded round through the FCD. If you are using boolits sized .451" or maybe .4515" the FCD won't do much swaging at all.

I prefer a taper crimp die to finish .45 ACP with, and I do use it in a separate step than seating. I use the seating die to seat the boolit and adjust it where it takes the bell out of the case mouth and straightens the side of the case to about 90% what it was before it was expanded.

[bangerjim]

I size 45ACP's to 451. FTC is a miracle to me at least! Allows me to shoot every 45 slug I have in 1911's with NO failure to load or cycle.

No argument.......just pure plain fact on this end! (can't argue with that!?!?!?)

If the OP is having problems, the FCD is only about $20. That is nothing to solve a problem. Why not just try one?

banger