whats a few degrees !

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I found something interesting in the great debate of grip angle

are you a 1911 or a glock grip angle person ?


why

I found this the other day when going back and forth between a smith and a glock and to test this while my brother was over helping me this weekend with a project , I asked hime to try something, he is a 1911 guy he compares all other guns to the 1911

I asked him to take his shooting stance pointing out the target I wanted him to use about 21 feet away and close his eyes ,with a unloaded gun I handed him I asked him to place his finger on the trigger and point the gun at the target eyes still closed then open his eyes what did he see , he said I see the rear sight but the front sight is low

repeat with the other gun this time front sight is correct

then I had him do it again but this time place his finger along the frame

he was supprised to find that now the sights on the glock were correct and the smith was not

asking the question do you draw and present with your finger on the trigger ?

I am not starting an argument , not saying one is better I just found it very interesting that both camps have a valid argument for what is natural feeling depending on how one trains

and my brother who has never shot a glock only 1911 and 1911 grip frame angle handguns found the same thing without me letting on what the difference would be ahead of time.

[TXGunNut]

My theory is there may not be a "natural" angle. I think it's muscle memory, pure and simple. If I've been shooting a 1911 regularly I'll easily draw and accurately point anything with the same grip angle. That's one reason I often carried a revolver for a duty gun while I was shooting PPC, even when most officers were carrying autos.
If I shoot a Glock heavily I will point that gun better than my beloved 1911's. Following this line of thinking I should probably be carrying an 1873 Colt SAA these days, or better yet spend some time with my carry gun.

[gray wolf]

Web of the fingers between thumb and forefinger should be high into the beaver-tail,
that web of skin should show a small amount of stress.

If the draw will be to a low ready or a high ready then the trigger finger is always along the slide.
I can extend, wipe off the safety and trigger press from there if needed.

If the drill or threat calls for instant out of the holster and shoot -- As in target or threat is 2 to 3 feet away then the draw is still, finger along the slide, safety comes off, mag well against my hip with the pistol canted outward to clear the body and not catch on clothing, trigger finger transitions to the trigger.
With a Close in target or threat ( arms length away ) you would not extend the pistol. If needed, Step back and to the side some distance, extend and repeat if necessary.

Draw and fire say at 5 yards and greater, pistol is UN-holstered with the trigger finger along the slide, never to the on button till the gun has cleared the holster.
Meet and greet of gun hand and off hand starts about at waist level, safety comes off about 75% through the full extension of the arms while the trigger finger begins trigger press.

Works for my 1911, naturally I left a little out cause the question was not really about how to draw and shoot.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I participate in action pistol league at my local club so I look to improve my draw and on target time I keep some targets posted in my basement across the room from my desk and work area

I also have to abide the finger on frame rule during draw , reload and move as well as being a good idea

my goal is to look at the target and draw as I reach full extension my sights should be aligned on the target

I agree a person can train for any gun

but my point was shifting the finger from the trigger to frame or frame to trigger changes how you point almost exactly the difference between the 2 most common grip angles glock and 1911


I was hoping more people would try this and see what it did for them

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm going to partially go along the same lines as TxGunNut and say that there may not be a true natural angle and muscle memory plays a part. That muscle memory may be one of the reasons users of the 1911 swear by that grip angle and claim they can't shoot other guns as well. I can't argue with what clearly works for someone else.
I prefer the more rakish grip angles incorporated into guns like the Luger, Glock, Ruger Standard/MKII/MKIII pistols and others. To be fair, part of that preference comes from the difference between forming a fist to point vs. punch. If you hold your arm out, form a fist and extend your index finger to point; you finger and forearm will be in line and your fist will be at a shallow angle to your forearm. A Glock or Luger grip angle closely matches that style grip.
If you form a fist as if your intended to throw a punch; your fist will be at a much sharper angle to your forearm and very close to a 1911 grip angle.
Both of those grips can be intuitive depending on the muscle memory of the user. I will say that most people seem to have a innate ability to point without a lot of visual reference needed.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

Both of those grips can be intuitive depending on the muscle memory of the user. I will say that most people seem to have a innate ability to point without a lot of visual reference needed.


what I am saying is if you are intuitive to either one , if either one of the two are learned switching can be easier than most people think , raise or lower the index finger when pointing finding the place on or below the frame to hold that index finger changes how the gun sits in the hand by essentially the difference between the 2 grips

my brother never shoots anything but 1911 and by changing where I had him place his index finger while he had the gun down at his side , he was able to with his eyes closed still raise the gun to his target 7 yards away and open his eyes and the sights were already lined up with a glock in his hand

and perhaps to simplify this more

your body knows where you point your index finger it is after all attached to you and your quite used to it unless you have had a recent brain injury or some other extenuating circumstance

the index finger needs to be parallel to the barrel no surprise there but it can't be any higher than the web of the hand

if you look at a 1911 and draw a line forward from the underside of the beaver tail parallel to the barrel or slide it lands your finger over the trigger

if you look at a glock and draw a line from where the web of the hand would be parallel to the slide/barrel it lands your finger on the frame


besides my own shooting I am a 4-H pistol instructor so I am looking for ways to give them better simple technique that puts them on target quickly and helps them to with the least extra instruction find their grip half my program guns are Ruger MKIII and the other half Ruger MKIII-22/45 so I have both grip angles and kids may end up going back and forth as well as having a variety of air pistols for the air pistol kids

my theory is that the angle doesn't mean that much if you align the index finger to the barrel and remember these kids have no muscle memory of this and don't know there is a difference or two major camps on the subject

I thank you for challenging the idea because it is helping me work through the best simplest way to explain it as I reply

I think so far I have boiled it down to, place the web between the thumb and index finger as high as you can into the grip of the handgun then make your index finger parallel to the barrel outside the trigger guard , look at the target and raise the handgun into your view between your eye and the target , then move the index finger to the trigger when you have the sights aligned on the target.

they know how to aligns sights already as I make air rifle a prerequisite for air pistol and any other powder burning discipline a prerequisite for 22 pistol which generally means 22 rifle.

with this technique of finger parallel to the barrel I find for me the distance of the sights above the web of my hand to be the biggest difference in blind point but since I don't ask them to blind point but raise gun into their view of the target that shouldn't be an issue.

as I type this I have 4 different guns with different grip angles and distances from web to sight siting on my desk with a target 21 feet away and I go from gun to gun testing this and this seems to be working if I make sure my finger is aligned parallel with the barrel but no higher than the web of my hand

I just had my youngest try this she only shoots rifle at this point, she had more problem with the weight of the guns than aligning the sights on any of the guns as long as that index finger was parallel to the barrel but naturally forward and no part of the finger was above the top of the web of her hand she was able to raise all 4 into her view of the target and be good

this isn't a 1911 vs glock argument it is a study in body mechanics

I would like for a few of you to try this and let me know what you find


step 0. determine eye dominance (this is the very first thing we do with the kids after going over the safety rules)
step 1. stand comfortably feet approximately shoulder width apart place hands together like you would for prayer point index fingers at the target adjust feet till this is comfortable , then relax hands to your sides and keep you feet where they are
step 2 . place web of of the dominate eye hand between the thumb and index finger as high as you comfortably can into the grip and grasp the gun with the middle finger as high as you can under the trigger guard , ring and pinkie finger below ,grasp secure but do not strain or grab hard your holding it, not holding on for a bull ride.
step 3. position your index finger parallel to the barrel/slide but no part of the index finger should be above the web of the hand
( I understand that those of us that are not 8-18 years old don't have strait fingers they have been broken and twisted by arthritis and use but kids tend to have strait fingers with non protruding knuckles so line you finger up as strait as you can parallel to the barrel)
step 4. show supporting hand position wrapping fingers around the fingers of the dominant hand thumb forward and hold the gun at low ready (show low ready)
step 5. look at the target , raise hands holding pistol into your view


our goal is simple instruction that works with their body mechanics and produces on target repeatable hits , building a positive feed back loop early we spend a lot of time on what we call First Shots Sequence , a repeatable way to get their bodies in the right spot , hold the gun right and make hits , find errors early and make corrections before they build improper muscle memory or bad habits.

we are doing well shooting form a bench , where we generally start them as it provides stability , control and gives good results , but where I see some struggle is the transition to standing.
taught right they pick it up quickly I had a young lady who had never shot pistol before this year , she went from first shots all over a 8 1/2 x 11 target sheet at 10 meters, with a little correction on technique to nice 10 meter groups on paper to consistently ringing a 12 inch gong at 60 meters in a few magazines with factory iron sights this was all wrists wrested on a sand bag set on a adjustable block to get the correct height for the shooter.

[Petrol & Powder]

I totally agree this is a study in body mechanics and not a 1911 vs. Glock thing. I don't want to go down the path of 1911 vs. anything; we've all been down that path and we all know where that path goes. It's not a productive path.
Let me preface this by saying I've shot both types extensively and I recognize that people are not all the same.
I can shot a 1911 just fine but I never found it to point naturally for me. I conducted the test that GREENCOUNTYPETE spelled out many times and the 1911 always points low for me. My index finger doesn't end up parallel to the barrel of a 1911 unless I force it to be parallel which pretty much defeats any attempt at natural point shooting for me. AGAIN, I'm not saying the technique is bad, I'm just saying it doesn't work for me.
Switch the gun to a Glock and it comes up on target with very little effort on my part. It just points better......for me. The same holds true for other guns with similar grip angles. Now, I think body mechanics and muscle memory both play a part it that.
I know a guy that is incredibly skilled with handguns and he can point shoot just about any gun you put in his hands. He told me that he learned to point shoot with a Colt Woodsman and he practiced without using the sights. He developed muscle memory than wasn't necessarily gun specific. I will say that he can shoot a Glock faster than most other pistols but that's likely due to more trigger time with a Glock.

I don't know what drove John Browning to select the grip angle of the 1911, or if anything drove that decision at all. Frankly, the grip angle of the 1911 may have just been an engineering fluke without much thought behind it at all.
It would seem that with the exception of the Luger, most semi-auto pistols of that era had rather sharp grip angles. The grip angle of the 1911 may simply have been the current style and when it became a widely accepted pistol the grip angle became entrenched with it.

Now put down the tar and feathers, I didn't really say anything bad about JMB. ;)

[Bill*B]

I don't worry too much about grip angle, but with my small hands grip size is important. I can't get used to the fat grips on pistols with double stack magazines. Give me a slim profile single stack any day.

[TCLouis]

Can't say this will hold true for real gun Live fire, but I bought a cheap spring powered Airsoft 1911 in anticipation of obtaining the real thing later.

"Firing" from the hip and only concentrating on the target (trees in the yard or as I walk through the woods) I am ammazed that I may miss, but all would easily be on a torso at close in to quite a ways out. Obviously John Browning stumbled on the proper grip angle, at least for me and yes apparently a few degrees count in many different ways.

And I have always maintained that I do not like 1911s . . .

Guess it is time to get one and test fire it the same way.
Luckily I can easily/safely do that with my backstop, it is about 100 foot high.

[bcp477]

Years ago, I would have agreed that there is an ergonomically "correct" grip angle. Now, after considerable experience with multiple guns, including both conventional grip angles as well as Glocks.....I no longer believe this. I now side with those who say that it is an issue of training and muscle memory.

I would also like to inject the concept of "no two people are identical" to this discussion. What I mean is, what works best for one might not work best for another. There is certainly room for all manner of variations, because by definition, that which works is "correct". As regards what works best for me - the jury is still out on that. I can say that it has varied at different times. When I predominantly shot pistols with more conventional grip angles, I did fine with those. When I first tried Glocks, they felt strictly weird to my hand, but oddly enough, I shot them very well, straight away. At this point, I only have one semi and it has a conventional grip angle. But, this particular pistol is a model that I have always shot extremely well, literally from the first shot. (I had the same model before, but foolishly gave it up.)

So, ultimately, I cannot make an absolute judgement for myself. Since I can't make that determination for myself, I don't believe that I have any basis for asserting what might work best for anyone else.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I don't know what drove John Browning to select the grip angle of the 1911, or if anything drove that decision at all. Frankly, the grip angle of the 1911 may have just been an engineering fluke without much thought behind it at all.
It would seem that with the exception of the Luger, most semi-auto pistols of that era had rather sharp grip angles. The grip angle of the 1911 may simply have been the current style and when it became a widely accepted pistol the grip angle became entrenched with it.



yes a study in body mechanics is really what I was doing, but

That is what I was getting at could it have been that in the year 1911 pointing a gun with finger on the trigger was common practice , because working with the body mechanics of you aim where your finger is pointing and becasue of the lower grip that you get on a 1911 because you just can't get the web of your hand any higher into the gun it puts the finger on the trigger when it is parallel to the slide

later we trained to place the finger above the trigger on the frame as a safer practice and recognized that the higher the hand was to the slide the more strait back the transfer of energy would be reducing muzzle flip and getting back on target faster



also In my thinking I was wondering if a person put a tactile spot for their index finger on the point that the their finger needed to be to be parallel with the slide you could blindly go back and forth between guns with different grip angles and the mechanics of a blind point would still work
for that matter a tactile strip could be placed on a holster so that as you draw the finger lines up with the point parallel to the slide , say something like a narrow strip of the hook side of Velcro stuck to the holster or strip of grip tape