Bullet crush

[karlrudin]

That's the best way to describe what it happening to my bullets once I seat them in the case. I had been reading some tips and tricks found in a NRA publication that the best accuracy can be obtained from NOT sizing bullets and shooting them as they drop from the mold if size permits. I recently started casting 7mm bullets from Lyman's 160 grain silhouette mold and they dropped at .285 which is perfect for my bore. Curiosity got me and I did a dry run(sans powder,primer) in a neck sized case. After pulling the bullet, I found that the neck had squeezed my bullet bearing surface to .282! So my thought, which I need response to is this. Do I not size my cases and use a Lee factory crimp die to tighten up the neck after seating the bullet? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[Bent Ramrod]

Did you use a Lyman "M" die or one of the other companies' neck expander dies before seating the boolit? Standard sizing die expander buttons are for jacketed bullets.

You shouldn't need the Lee factory crimp die in this situation.

[williamwaco]

You need the M die.

If that doesn't fix it, you might need a collet neck sizer so you don't size the neck down so much.

A little more information would help.

What cartridge?

What Bullet?

What dies?

What rifle? That can change the crimping recommendation.

[Wayne Smith]

Either the Lyman M die or the RCBS equivelant will solve your problem. As was mentioned, current reloading dies are made for condom bullets, not cast boolits. The sizers mentioned are sized for cast boolits - or at least the Lyman specifically is. You probably have to tell RCBS the particular size you need to get the right one.

[Litl Red 3991]

That's the best way to describe what it happening to my bullets once I seat them in the case. I had been reading some tips and tricks found in a NRA publication that the best accuracy can be obtained from NOT sizing bullets and shooting them as they drop from the mold if size permits. I recently started casting 7mm bullets from Lyman's 160 grain silhouette mold and they dropped at .285 which is perfect for my bore. Curiosity got me and I did a dry run(sans powder,primer) in a neck sized case. After pulling the bullet, I found that the neck had squeezed my bullet bearing surface to .282! So my thought, which I need response to is this. Do I not size my cases and use a Lee factory crimp die to tighten up the neck after seating the bullet? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Chances are you've never really shot that gun with anything other than bullets that were sized by your dies/cases down to .282". If you've slugged your barrel, then those ".285 which is perfect for my bore" may or may not be "perfect".

But for sure, getting an expander plug would be the least effort to get started trying bullet sizes to actually find out what might be perfect.

It's a really good bet your sizing die is the start of your problem. And a good bet your expander isn't correcting it. Simply getting a bigger expander plug still leaves a string or two untied. It's better to work the brass as little as possible if you intend to use it more than once. Your present expander is too small. The present sizer is too small also. And they're significantly small if they were used to neck size that brass.

Throwing a Lee factory crimp at your problem may or may not "solve" it. A neck that is resizing your slug doesn't really need tighter crimping.

[Litl Red 3991]

Think about the expander all by itself. It's allowing the brass to be so small a diameter it is resizing your slugs.

Think about the sizer all by itself. It's resizing your necks so small they resize your slugs.

Of course the sizer works the brass first, then the expander doesn't correct that too small neck.

What brand of dies?

[karlrudin]

You need the M die.

If that doesn't fix it, you might need a collet neck sizer so you don't size the neck down so much.

A little more information would help.

What cartridge?

What Bullet?

What dies?

What rifle? That can change the crimping recommendation.


I'm using a 7-08remington with cases formed from .308 win. I have trimmed them to 308 trim length, they have been neck turned to have a J bullet neck diameter of .313. These cases have been loaded 8 times with 1 trimming. They do not have a doughnut inside the neck. I am using a Lyman 7mm 160 grain silhouette bullet that falls out of the mold measuring .285 on the driving bands and .2775 on the main body. They are made of COWW water dropped. My dies are Forster Bench Rest neck sizing dies with a expander ball with a .282 diameter. My rifle is a Savage 110F with a Shilen 7-08 chamber with a headspace of .002 over Minimum. My bore measures .284 and my lands measure .277. 26" full bull barrel. What I was saying above is that if I just deprime without using a sizing die, the bullet goes in with some resistance. My question is should I use a collet to tighten the neck around the bullet. Unsized inside diameter of neck is .285. Sized is .282.

[Cowboy_Dan]

Do those Forster neck dies allow you to size the neck less? An M die or a properly sized NOE expander plug could also be used size the neck back up to fit the boolit. Notice that your current setup leaves neck id at .282 and that the boolit was resized to ... .282.

[karlrudin]

Do those Forster neck dies allow you to size the neck less? An M die or a properly sized NOE expander plug could also be used size the neck back up to fit the boolit. Notice that your current setup leaves neck id at .282 and that the boolit was resized to ... .282.

I can see if they can get me a expander ball that is larger. Not much cost on that. $5 plus shipping

[Echo]

Do those Forster neck dies allow you to size the neck less? An M die or a properly sized NOE expander plug could also be used size the neck back up to fit the boolit. Notice that your current setup leaves neck id at .282 and that the boolit was resized to ... .282.
Actually, I'll bet that spring-back will reduce the neck ID another .001 or 2. Check with Forster and see if they can provide an expander ball about 285, and rely on spring-back to reduce the ID to .284. If that doesn't provide enough neck tension, polish the expander down a thousandth and try again.

[Tatume]

Have you shot any of the cast bullets? How do they shoot?

[karlrudin]

Have you shot any of the cast bullets? How do they shoot?


Not yet, they are still age curing. Cant load any up till Monday week. Maybe they will have hardened up enough not to be a problem. Maybe.

[gloob]

Getting an expander ball at 285 will just stretch your brass. Better to get an M die expander at 285, if you wanna go that route.

If you get at least a little neck tension without sizing, and you're shooting a bolt action, I say load 'em like that and DON'T even crimp. In fact, I would try loading them slightly long, and letting the rifling push the bullet back.

It's ok to load a cast rifle bullet into the lands. That can significantly increase accuracy. That way you're letting the lands create the initial pressure, rather than neck tension. The main drawback is that if you eject a live round, you will often leave the bullet behind. For that reason, whenever I did this, I would carry around a couple of primed and charged cases without a bullet, covered by a little alum foil and tape, just in case.

The other thing you may be interested in doing is shooting GC'd bullets. You didn't specifically say you're shooting plain base, but I suspect you are if your bullets are being squished that much. Gas checks will generally be a lot more accurate in a 7mm-08. If you like plain base, you might try that with your larger caliber rifles chucking bigger slugs.

[.22-10-45]

Gloob beat me to it..A G.C. bullet can stand a tighter neck. With P.B. bullets, I need an expander right at or no smaller than .002" of bullet dia.

[Litl Red 3991]

Getting an expander ball at 285 will just stretch your brass. Better to get an M die expander at 285, if you wanna go that route.



????

Both tools stretch the brass to expand it?

How would an M die expand without stretching?

[popper]

My question is should I use a collet to tighten the neck around the bullet NO, you could get a collet NS die with the proper size mandrel. With an unsized boolit 285, bore 284 you probably need to beagle the mould to insure 285 by sizing. Obviously a target 7-08 rifle so GC should be used. WDWW needs aging to harden fully but don't expect that to solve the problem. Another solution would be to powder coat the unsized boolits and load the in unsized cases.

[Hamish]

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=88&osCsid=c37epatlutl0ankfuicgsgsde4

[stubbicatt]

You might consider a FL sizing die from Forster and have them ream out the neck to the size you want it to be so you don't have to use an expander ball. Your bullets will seat fine with about a .001" difference and shouldn't crush. The M die from Lyman will also help to put a small flare on the case mouth to ease seating.

My $.02

[Litl Red 3991]

Do collets actually tighten the neck around the bullet. Yes but you've already got a case neck that is resizing the bullet to a smaller diameter the neck is so tight. And that neck should have strong grip on the bullet.

Conventional wisdom is that metals spring back after being sized. So you hit that neck with a collet and squeeze it and the bullet. What happens next is the collet lets up and the neck now springs back. Does the bullet? If it's lead, probably not as much as the brass neck. Maybe so, maybe not.

In the OPs situation, a collet resizing really isn't going to do anything that is needed.

[williamwaco]

I would get a larger neck sizing collet to size the neck to the size I wanted and skip the expander. Since all your cases are turned to a uniform neck thickness you don't need both steps and you will work your brass less. Of course you will still need a little flare. I would use the M die for that. You only need a tiny bit.