Annealing Nickeled Cases

[Bent Ramrod]

I got some used nickeled .44-40 cases and, having had experience with brittleness and early retirement in reloading nickeled .38 Spl cases, would like to make them last for a decent number of reloads. I've never annealed plated cases though, and wonder about the heat's effect on the plating, and its effectiveness on the plated brass. Has anybody annealed nickeled cases? Any experience and wisdom gratefully accepted.

[country gent]

I have never tried to anneal plated cases but would wonder if the 2 diffrent expasion rates ( nickel and brass) may cause an issue with seperation of the plating from the base metal. I is supposedly a solid bond being plated but expansion can cause problems. I believe If I was to attempt it I would use a method with out a flame that would heat very evenly. A lead pot with lead or sand in it and soak cases for a short time 5 secs to 10 secs. This will have no carburizing or oxidizing effect on the cases opr plating either. Just my thoughts on it

[MarkP]

I have annealed nickel 357's to make 256 WM with a flame, be patient with the flame and you should have good results. Longer length cases I anneal in molten lead, I have never annealed nickel plated brass in a lead bath so not sure what happens.

[country gent]

I use a lyman mag dipper with glass sand in it and a rack with a ring of holes and a stop plate beneath it to limit case depth I use to anneal cases. set to 800 degrees it does a great job of annealing cases. Its quick easy and convient to use. I annealed before with a tourch and hated it flame varied as to strength nd temp from use to use. only real gage of temp was golor change of case. Some of the chemicals or the plating process it sel tends to make things a little brittle it seems. Working plated parts can be interesting as it tends to crack and dicolor if worked to hard and the platingis normally very thin making it easy to break thru. I avoid plated brass cases for these and other reasons.

[tygar]

Funny this was posted. Today I tried annealing nickel brass for the first time.

I had 3 nickel 338s I had up sized to 375/338. They were the only nickel ones I had tried. Worked fine at least for a couple loads, but I wanted to keep it all the same brand & previous caliber. I have used 338, 375 & 458s WWs & RPs to see if there is any difference between the 3 for the conversion as all really vary in weight.

Anyways, I downsized a couple brass with no problems so I did the nickel. They sized fine with no apparent cracking or problems.

After doing a conversion I always anneal so when I was doing the brass I did the nickel. Since I rotate my brass ones in the flame for 10 seconds I figured to add 3 for the nickel. So I did 13 sec. for them. They steamed like the brass & don't show any effects. Look just like they did as 338s before I formed them in the 375/338 die.

Havn't a clue as to whether it helped or hurt but am going to load with some lead bullets & a 2K or so speed & see if they hold up.

Using lead or sand at 800 sounds like a good idea.

Anyone doing it for brass cases?

[country gent]

I do my bpcr brass in silica sand ( used for making glass very fine grained) at 800 degrees no oxidation or carbon from a flame, very little color change but mouths necks are softer when done than before. My plate set uop has 12 holes around the outside of the plate above the pot and a stop plate in the sand a base plate keeps it square and centered. the stop plate sets the depth the case enters the sand. The top plate spaces and hold cases straight. In use I bring it up to temp checking in several diffrent spots. I insert a case in every hole around the ring until I get to one empty hole. I then remove and quench the next case and insert into previous hole working in this manner till all cases in the batch have been annealed. Goes pretty quickly and easily. Temp is the same time soaked is pretty close and depth of soak on case is very close also. I find it a very consistent way to anneal. Shorter cases may be tricky in this set up, as there wont be much sticking up to get a hold of. I do water quech also. Cases annealed when ran into a sizing die or over an expander have much less spring back from un annealed cases of the same lot.

[rockrat]

I anneal my large caliber nickled cases in a lead bath. No problems so far

[historicfirearms]

You guys that anneal in a lead bath, how do you keep the lead from sticking to your brass? I tried it one time and ruined some good brass by having lead soldered inside the mouth, which I couldn't remove.

[EDG]

Develop your annealing process using unplated brass for time and temperature to produce the right anneal.
If your brass is really too hard and the annealing causes a problem with the nickel plate just toss the brass. There is nothing else you can do with it.

[country gent]

ANother thing with the 2 disimilar metals that may become an issue is How is nickel affected buy heat is it ferrous or non ferrous does it harden with heat and quench or does it have to Soak and be brought down slowly to anneal soften like steels do. Brass heat softens stress relieves it quenched or not. Im not sure on the nickel what it will do as to hardening softenig. I do know some high alloy steels ( chrome carbon nickel ad others materials in the alloy) may take up to 10-12 hours soak to draw back and normalize. Some research in metalurgical sources might pay off here.

[Bent Ramrod]

Thanks for the replies. I fired up the torch and played it on the cases as they stood in a spinning pan of water. There was no color change; I just counted 10 seconds and observed the water boiling alongside the head of he case. I'll see how they resize, expand and shoot.

i remember that nickeled .38 Spl. brass, besides being much more prone to cracking around the case mouths, would start flaking off the nickel plating while being full-length resized. Guess I'll have to see if that happens here. It's Starline brass, which I've found to be good stuff.

i tried the lead pot anneal method once. The lead adhered to the cases. If I put a little oil or grease on the cases, they smoked and had to be washed in detergent afterwards. It didn't absolutely stop the lead adherence either. For me, the torch method is at least simpler, and I have all the necessary equipment.

[Bent Ramrod]

Today I FL resized the cases and expanded and belled the necks for reloading. What discoloration I noted was already on the cases before annealing. They sized and expanded without cracking or the plating flaking off. Progress through the dies was very smooth. I guess the only difference between brass and nickel plating is there is no play of colors to guide the annealer. Just watch the water boil at the base, and/or count to a given number, and it will work.

[curator]

I have annealed nickle plated 7mm Rem Magnum brass to fire form to .458 Win Mag with good results. Brass forms fine and it lasts as long as non-plated brass as long as I don't push the pressures really high.

[Point-Man]

It looks like annealing nickel plated rifle brass with a flame works ok . Anyone use nickel plated 30-06 to make 8mm mauser or 7.7 jap ?

[kywoodwrkr]

A PDF on brass and properties.
See page 32 for annealing in particular.
http://www.copperalliance.org.uk/docs/librariesprovider5/resources/pub-117---the-brasses_whole_web-pdf.pdf?sfvrsn=0
PS C to F multiply C by 9/5.

[tygar]

OK I really had a chance to stress nickel brass the last few days.

I had fire formed 416 RM into 450 Watts, along with 375H&H brass. I also had sized, then, fire formed 338 & 458 nickel into 375-338. I had several different brands & calibers with different case volume for testing to see how well each worked.

Any how, I annealed the 375-338 nickel which was .458s & some .338s. I then fire formed the .458s back into .458s. Had 15 cases & all went back fine with no problems. The nickel .338s I just necked back down from .375 into .338s. I had to raise & lower the press handle 2 or 3 times but they sized ok & I only lost a couple from crushing. These were not annealed.

The .416 nickel that had been fire formed into .450 Watts had not been annealed. I just sized them back down to .416. I lost a few to splits & 1 crush. Most of the mouths had some edge splitting but all of them were fine after trimming back to proper length.

So all of the nickel was fire formed up or down then sized back down or fire formed back up, then fire formed again. One batch was annealed & the other not. Most of each way seemed to work out OK with minimal loss.

During all this I had WW, RP, Browning, FC brass cases that had the same things done to it. I think the brass cases were a little easier to work with than the nickel & I only lost a couple to crush & split & didn't have the neck edge splits.

So, FWIW, it all seemed to work but if I had to choose I'd just work with brass but since I have hundreds of Federal Premium fired cases in the mag calibers I use it sometimes. I actually get my best accuracy with Fed Premium factory ammo in my Kleinguenther .300Win hunting rifle but in my 1k bench rest gun & other .300s, brass works better. Probably due to neck turning etc. Turning nickel wouldn't work good.

[Big Country 64]

I will Be following this thread. I just started making 8mm from nickel plated 30-06 brass

[John Boy]

Pge 30 ... http://www.copperalliance.org.uk/docs/librariesprovider5/resources/pub-117---the-brasses_whole_web-pdf.pdf?sfvrsn=0

Annealing (full)

In order to fully soften most brasses, heat to 500-550ºC for
1⁄2 to 1 hour at temperature, then either air cool or, especially for alpha
alloys, ensure that excessive grain growth is prevented by a quench or rapid furnace cool

Alpha brasses
The range of alloys, termed ‘alpha brasses’, or ‘cold working brasses’, contain a minimum 63% of copper. They are characterised by their ductility at room temperature,and can be extensively deformed by rolling, drawing,bending, spinning, deep drawing, cold heading and thread rolling. The best known material in this group contains 30%zinc and is often known as ‘70/30’ or ‘cartridge’ brass,CuZn30 - due to the ease with which the alloy can be deep drawn for the manufacture of cartridge cases

So ... after annealing brass cartridges made of 'alpha brass' they should be quenched!

Now look at the chart on page 36 for the temperature to anneal cartridge brass. The recrystallization temperature zone is 454C which is 849 degrees F.
Not 625 to 650 degrees F.

[cowboybart]

You guys that anneal in a lead bath, how do you keep the lead from sticking to your brass? I tried it one time and ruined some good brass by having lead soldered inside the mouth, which I couldn't remove.

I'd like to know the answer to this too.

[GhostHawk]

In my case I was annealing .303 british brass to fireform to .410 shotshells.

I got my lead pot hot, dipped each case mouth into a mix of beeswax, olive oil and coconut oil (Local name Will's Wood Butter)
Leave the primer in, makes an air seal on the inside, so lead doesn't get in. Oil/wax mix flows up the brass as it enters the lead and keeps it from sticking. I had a few little minor specks and streaks, but very little. Dropped into colder water and just hand dried each one with a towel. Removed gunk, specks of lead etc.

[cowboybart]

Neat - Good info

[cs86]

You guys that anneal in a lead bath, how do you keep the lead from sticking to your brass? I tried it one time and ruined some good brass by having lead soldered inside the mouth, which I couldn't remove.

I'm hoping someone chimes in on this also.