Browning BLR barrel floating

[Hannibal]

I have a pre-'81 BLR in .358 Winchester I'm trying to wring all the accuracy I can from. It shoots 3" 10 shot groups at 100 yds and I'd like to cut that in half.
The fore end is touching all along the barrel and the band is making significant contact as well. I have a few ideas about what to do, but thought someone who has already been down this road might care to chime in?

[lightload]

I'd say that you can't easily reduce groups, and my opinion is that 10 shots in 3 inches at a 100 yards is excellent, especially since your rifle has a light barrel subject to heating up rapidly. You might try testing it with the forearm completely removed to eliminate this variable. With a lever gun, the fact that you have to keep repositioning the rifle for each shot hinders the process. Also, the straight stock doesn't permit a good cheek to stock weld and requires upward head tilting to acquire a sight picture through the scope. Your BLR is a light weight rifle firing a heavily recoiling round that would be difficult to shoot well from a bench. Perhaps the most limiting factor is that within the .358 family boolit choices are few, and none is a target boolit.

Are you shooting a cast boolit or one of those other kind. Your rifle is very accurate, and you must be a terrific rifle shot to shoot 10 inside of 3 at 100 with a .358 lever gun. Wow.

[Dryball]

I have read several articles on making levers accurate. Most have to do with floating the forearm and at least one article addresses how most stocks attach to the receiver...a problem that th Savage 99 handled well. A quick google on the subject will provide lots of good reading

[Hannibal]

Lightload-

I don't know about being a 'terrific shot', but thank you for the kind words. :)

I am checking the barrel for heat between shots, and allowing it to cool to only being warm, so it takes 45 min. or so to shoot a 10 shot group.
I am accustomed to doing this with sporter weight factory rifles. It's not for everybody.
Yes, I am shooting j-words. I am trying to establish a base line before attempting to develop a cast boolit load.
I have the fore end off and plan to shoot it with it off and see how that goes.
Obviously, if I see no difference, there is no point in pursuing modifying the fore end.
If it does make a significant difference, I am going to have to figure out an eye-pleasing and functional way to reinstall the fore end while maintaining the free floating condition.
Hence my post.

[Hannibal]

I have read several articles on making levers accurate. Most have to do with floating the forearm and at least one article addresses how most stocks attach to the receiver...a problem that th Savage 99 handled well. A quick google on the subject will provide lots of good reading

Lots of Marlin and Winchester info, pretty scarce on BLRs. A BLR uses a thru-bolt, to secure the fore end, which is unique to lever actions, it would seem.

[MT Gianni]

I would try the old trick of checking the bbl with a dollar bill for tight spots with a cold, warm and hot bbl. I have wondered about that with my pre 81 in 308 but get 1 1/4" accuracy with j words on a good day 5 shot groups. I have fired 3 shots in the field but it is a field rifle for me.

[Hannibal]

I would try the old trick of checking the bbl with a dollar bill for tight spots with a cold, warm and hot bbl. I have wondered about that with my pre 81 in 308 but get 1 1/4" accuracy with j words on a good day 5 shot groups. I have fired 3 shots in the field but it is a field rifle for me.

The dollar bill trick fails epically in this case. Heavy contact along the entire fore end length AND heavy contact on the barrel band. I will be floored if shooting it with the fore end and barrel band removed does not make a remarkable difference, but we shall see. Nothing can correct a bad barrel except a good barrel, eh?

I'm hoping someone will come along who has worked a BLR fore end over before. Looks like I'm on a lonely path here . . . . .

[Groo]

Groo here
Free floating should be the "last thing" you do.
First check to be sure the barrel fits the forend.
Some bedding material may be needed.
Does this rifle shoot 3in with other bullet weights?
On light barrels, the stock fore end will act like a dampner , you may not get max accuracy,
but, it will be good with many more loads and bullet weights.

[TXGunNut]

You probably already know this but I've gotten best performance from leverguns on the bench by ensuring that the front bag is as close as possible to the receiver. That and letting the barrel cool seem to cure most of my levergun accuracy woes. OTOH 3" @ 100 isn't bad, I only have one levergun that will consistently beat that but I'd expect above average accuracy from a BLR.

[Blackwater]

If it were me, I think the first thing I'd do is get a copy of the gunsmith's book whose name my CRS keeps me from remembering now, but someone here not so debilitated should be able to chime in and give you, on gunsmithing non-bolt actions, like levers. He gives you the PRINCIPLES you need to attend to with ANY gun, and takes it from there. I can't recall if he gives info specific to the BLR, but if he doesn't, you'll still get all the info you need to pursue MOA, or even better from your rifle. GEE! I just HATE this CRS stuff!!!

[dilly]

Well clearly there isn't as much knowledge on this subject as others. If you find yourself entering unknown territory please post back and document your findings. I have a BLR and find this interesting.

[Hannibal]

Groo here
Free floating should be the "last thing" you do.
First check to be sure the barrel fits the forend.
Some bedding material may be needed.
Does this rifle shoot 3in with other bullet weights?
On light barrels, the stock fore end will act like a dampner , you may not get max accuracy,
but, it will be good with many more loads and bullet weights.

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying. Are you recommending FULLY bedding the fore end? I had considered that, but I can't find anything anywhere where someone has done that with satisfactory results, other than fixing a loose fore end.
3" is the best I have been able to do, but I admit I've only tried 200 and 250 grain J-words. Oddly enough, I've shot some RCBS 35-200 at 2200 FPS and they weren't much worse, around 4" @ 100.
So, I decided to back-up and see if better was possibe with jacketed, or if I'm starting to beat a dead horse.

[MBTcustom]

When considering accuracy in a rifle, the very first priority is to use an accurate barrel because no amount of lapping, bedding, loading, or praying is going to turn a factory mistake into a Krieger. We all like to think that all we have to do is "believe" and find the magic combination, but the fact is, the barrel will only shoot as well as it was made, and it really wants to perform to its potential. You can fudge the numbers one way or the other if you find something that is glaringly wrong that you can correct, but if there is nothing apparent, the most logical conclusion is that the rifle is just a little closer to their 4MOA guarantee than we really care for. Doesn't matter how much it cost. It's a piece of rifled barrel steel, and sometimes they make an exceptional one on accident. The rest of the time, what you have there is just slightly worse than average.
I've got a Browning highwall here in the shop that is absolutely beautiful but has one groove cut deeper than the others, and who knows what else. This rifle will shoot no better than 4MOA and it was very expensive.
My Browning 1886 45-70 will do 3" at 100 yards so far. I'm shooting iron sights, and I'm only good for about 1.5" with sights of this style, so my finger in the wind guess is that this rifle is around 1.5-2 MOA, which is fantastic for a rifle of this style in my book, and you're not far off from that yourself.

Concerning barrel harmonics, I'm no expert, but what I have observed is that you either need the barrel to be fully floated, or you need solid contact points. The only thing that is not consistent is contact that changes with each shot, so make sure there's nothing that can't decide whether it's touching or not, and see what happens.
It's possible that removing the forend all together will help, but I suspect that the very best accuracy will come from properly executed pressure points.

[Clay M]

It is not intended to be a target rifle, so 3" ten shot groups would be fine in my book,unless you are going to compete with the gun.In that case I would buy something else.
I would be more concerned with what it will do with the first three shots.Especially for a clean,cold barrel.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

There are many places to chase accuracy. You can free float the barrel on the BLR's with the rod-like barrel hanger, watch for contact from the barrel band. Full-length bedding may work very well, accraglas- gel or similar products. Pressure bedding at the fore end tip and barrel band and the 1st two inches in front of the receiver also works. How's the notoriously crappy Browning Trigger, poor triggers open groups. Most lever-actions are difficult to shoot from ' The Bench' , being light, round and hard to hold consistently on the bags. Reloading technique does count. Getting solid and consistent ignition from the .358 requires careful monitoring of cartridge headspace. I use a Burris 6-24 to work up accurate reloads, scope power can make a significant difference in ease of getting small groups. Not every bullet shoots well in every rifle, 'most' rifles will shoot under 2" groups at a 100 yards, but it may require a great deal of experimentation with loads and tecnique. I have found the Sierra 225 shoots well in a pre-81 BLR and 2 Savage 99's. Powders do seem to make a difference. My BLR .358 liked IMR 4895 better than H4895, both Varget and Accurate 2015 work very well with 200 and 225 grain j-bullets in all 3, 250's just kick too hard with no benefit in killing stuff. A good recoil pad and 'sissy' bag or folded towel helps with recoil. BLR's have very hard butt pads. BLR 358's have very light barrels, so heating can be a problem, go very slow - or throw away the first couple shots and maintain an even pace.

[Clay M]

I had an original BLR in .308 win. I never was overwhelmed with the accuracy, so I sold it.
Most of my .308 will shoot half inch or better. It would not.
I expect a .308 to shoot but the BLR is a hunting rifle, so there are many factors. The two piece stock, the trigger, the barrel band ,the light whippy barrel.It is what it is .

[MBTcustom]

The nice thing about a lever gun is the fast follow up shots. Typically fired from the shoulder inside of 50 yards where the action gets fast quick. The 358 is great at this, and the BLR is a very handy rifle. Personally, I prefer a 336, or an 1895, with a full action job, but any levergun will do, and the BLR is the way to do it with a little bit of style!
You have to consider the purpose for which the firearm was designed. I think hollywood has given the american people an inflated idea of what can be done with a levergun. True, a man with a levergun who knows it very well can kill deer out to 200 yards on demand, but just because he rolls a deer every time doesn't mean he hit it within 1/2" of where he was shooting. If you have a rifle that will cover 6" out to 200 yards, and you know exactly where the boundaries of that 6" group are, and you have trained yourself to aim right in the middle of that pattern when shooting at any range, then you will be successful every time, but that doesn't mean you can blow up golf balls at the same distance.

Another thing I might mention is that you should really consider what kind of accuracy you're after.
Shooting from a bench is nice and all, and with a bolt gun, it can give you a good indication of what the potential is, but maybe not with a levergun.
Some here will slap me, but I want to just throw it out there, that there are some rifles I just shoot better from the shoulder. True, I'm not going to shoot the bolt gun as well off hand as I did on the bench, but isn't it a trip when you find out that you can shoot the levergun better off hand than the bolt gun? Hmmmmmm. There's no bench rest in the woods afterall.
I find that sometimes there's more to the equation than meets the eye. A portion of the harmonics in a rifle have to do with how and where you hold that rifle. Don't believe me? Try shooting the same load from your most accurate bolt gun, but shoot three different groups resting the forend at three different locations on the BR. Well, I would humbly submit to you that certain guns were made to shoot from the shoulder, and the BLR is one of them. Furthermore, if you can shoot 3MOA from the shoulder with a standard rifle, you are an exceptional marksman.

This reminds me of my first rifle that dad bought me. A Marlin 336. I did the same thing you are doing. I shot it from the bench, and I dinked with this and I dinked with that. However, my goal was t oshoot a 1" 5 shot group at 100 yards from the off hand position. I shot thousands of rounds trying to do it. I got to where I could put all 7 in a piece of pocket notebook paper at 100 yards, but that was the accuracy potential of that rifle with cast lead. No better. About 2.5MOA was all it had and I was asking it to do something it was not capable of doing. I finally accomplished my goal by taking the forend and magazine tube off the gun, and single feeding cartridges that were loaded with 168 SMKs. I finally stuck five in a one inch group at 100 yards standing on my own two clod hoppers!
Of course, then I was faced with the sad reality that I could hit darn near anything I wanted and 99.999% of the bullets I had fired would have put meat on the table which is what that rifle was designed to do.
Even now, I have the ability to build rifles of such fine accuracy that no aspirin is safe at 100 yards, but I still hunt with guns that are only capable of 1.5-3 MOA. Why? Because I hunt in areas that allow a shot of 20-50 yards most of the time, with 200 yards being the absolute maximum I could find if I wanted to.
So I guess what I'm saying is that even though it's fun to try to find one rifle that will do it all, it's much easier to use the right tool for the job.
If I'm hunting in the thick woods, I'm carrying a 45-70 levergun and I'm putting meat in the freezer.
If I'm hunting in open woods, I'm carrying a Sako AV and I'm still putting meat in the freezer.
If I'm defending my life, I'm carrying a Springfield M1A Scout and the bad guys are going to have a bad day.
If I'm setting up on a bench, I'm sliding a 21Lb rifle into the 25lb rest and I'm going to make nice ragged holes.
Use the rifle you have where it suits the situation, and don't try to hammer a square peg into a round hole. I think you should take that rifle as is, hang a 6" steel out there at 100 yards, and learn to hit it every time from the standing position. If it gets easy, hang a 4" swinger out there. Once deer season arrives, whack em and stack em, and I think you will find other atributes of that rifle to be very appealing as compared to a super accurate bolt gun.
Just something to think about.

[Hannibal]

You make some very good points, Tim. But this is not entirely about practicality. It is as much about what can be done with the rifles, moulds and reloading equipment I have on hand as anything else. I'm on a learning expedition. Anyone who already possesses the knowledge and experience I am looking for would already know what can or can't be done and would have weighed their options, made a decision and moved on.
Many of you have shared your personal experience in this thread already. I'm not ignoring or questioning the experience you speak from. I seek to verify your findings so that, when posed with the same questions I ask here, I can relate MY experience with the same resolve and conviction.
Indulge me, or simply ignore this persuit as any of you see fit.
Thank you all for your time and opinions.

[GooseGestapo]

You didn't say what load or ammo you're using.
My BLR '81 (steel reciever) typically performs as yours. However I did manage to find an accurate load.
Mine wants the bullets seated out closer to the throat. Mine has a long one.
Using the Hornady 200gr PtSpt seated out to about 2.840". Over 48.0gr of H4895 it yields ~1.25" groups at 2,500fps. Best load I've found. Kills deer very good.Only draw back is the "creepy" trigger. This load looks funky, but still fits the magazine.

It shoots quite good with RCBS 200gr FNGC (casts 220gr) sized to .360" (for my 336 Marlin .35Rem) over 39.0gr BLC2. (same load I use in the .35Rem.) but not quite as good as the Marlin.

[Hannibal]

You didn't say what load or ammo you're using.
My BLR '81 (steel reciever) typically performs as yours. However I did manage to find an accurate load.
Mine wants the bullets seated out closer to the throat. Mine has a long one.
Using the Hornady 200gr PtSpt seated out to about 2.840". Over 48.0gr of H4895 it yields ~1.25" groups at 2,500fps. Best load I've found. Kills deer very good.Only draw back is the "creepy" trigger. This load looks funky, but still fits the magazine.

It shoots quite good with RCBS 200gr FNGC (casts 220gr) sized to .360" (for my 336 Marlin .35Rem) over 39.0gr BLC2. (same load I use in the .35Rem.) but not quite as good as the Marlin.

Hornady 200 Gr SP Interlock. COAL 2.740". 45 Grains of IMR 4064. Velocity around 2200 FPS. I get a bit of muzzle flash, and I have no doubt I could get more velocity with a faster powder such as IMR 3031, but as my velocity spread is only 20 FPS over 10 rounds, I'm thinking this should be just fine for accuracy testing.

The load behind the RCBS 35-200 was exactly the same thing. 45 Grains of 4064, 2.665 COAL and right about 2200 FPS. Run thru a .360" Lyman die in a Lyman 450 with White Label BAC. The boolit drops right at .360" with water quenched range lead and 2% tin, so all that is really happening is application of a gas check and lube. FWIW.

[nekshot]

I had one of those 358's years ago and got rid of it because the recoil was too much for me and no I don't wear skirts! I easily off the bench would get 1 1\2 inch groubs but I slowed it down for that. Still killed deer but was easier on shoulder. I will look for the load info, its here at the bottom of notes.

[OuchHot!]

I have the same era BLR in .308. My fore-end slides on and off the carrier with very slight barrel contact. Most contact is in the area of the band which does contact (but not "hard") the barrel. Mine has always been one of my most accurate rifles. I use locktight on the bolt to prevent rotation of the fore-end.

[GooseGestapo]

Try H4895, at 48.0gr. It was one of Ken Waters pet loads for .358. Seat 200gr Hornady PtSpt out to 2.825-2.840". Worked wonders with mine.

[DavidM]

I just bought a new BLR .358 so I thought I would add to this thread. Had to register first. I got this info from another site so I can't claim it. The forearm flexes a lot with the hanger, You can drill a hole in the front of the hanger, thread it and put in a set screw. This makes the hanger solid and keeps it from moving with the pressure from your hand. Make sure it doesn't touch the barrel down its length. Next wrap sandpaper around a dowel rod and sand the barrel band to where it doesn't touch. This gives you a free floated barrel.

As someone said a good trigger is important. The best gunsmith for this is Neil Jones in Pa. Google him and give him a call. Best of luck with your BLR. Its a great gun in a great caliber.

[TXGunNut]

Welcome to the forum, DavidM!

[Hannibal]

Update - well, its been awhile, but I finally have some results to post. My first issue was deciding just what I was going to do with the fore-end, given I had this arrangement to work with.

[Hannibal]

My first attempt was to add pressure points to the barrel at the end of the fore-end and retain the barrel clamp. To say I was dis-appointed with the results is the understatement of the year. It was all I could do to restrain myself from wrapping this ......thing around the nearest large tree.

Yes, it's only a 5-round group. I saw no reason to prolong the agony. That's well over 6".

[Hannibal]

After allowing several moons to rise, I decided to try one more time. I removed the fore-end and removed the pressure point shims and added Self-Adhesive Aluminum Foil Tape to the top of the fore-end nearest the barrel. If you look closely at the attached photo, I think you will be able to see it. Amazingly, this small amount of shim material fully floated the barrel.

The aluminum shim is just below the barrel on the chamber end of the barrel. It will appear as a very small white line.

[Hannibal]

I could think of no viable way to use the barrel band, so I elected to leave it off. Perhaps someone out there can formulate a cleaver idea, but I have not to date. The fore-end is less than attractive in this state, and one would want to be mindful of this condition if walking thru heavy overhead cover, but a perfect solution eludes me . . . .

[Hannibal]

Now to the meat and potatoes. The following are 2-5 shot groups. If anyone out there wonders why I went to 5-shot groups with this particular rifle, please inspect the barrel of a .358 BLR. They are very thin, and thus, quite susceptible to heat deformation and inaccuracy. I got tired of waiting. Simple as that.

[Hannibal]

I decided these groups were perfectly acceptable for what I was trying to do. Tonight, I stretched the range out to 300 yds. I have no group to post, but I can tell you that I rang steel 9 of 10 tries. First try was to measure the drop. Second try and the steel broke in half. So call it 8 of 10. From a BLR. At 300 yds. Steel measures 8" x 10 1/2". when it's in one piece, that is.


I'm a happy guy. :bigsmyl2:

Load was Hornady 250 grain PSP J-words in front of 42.5 grains of 4064. 2.795" OAL. Fireforming Lake City reformed brass. WLR primers. I do not recommend this load, nor take any responsibility for using it. But I'm sure folks are gonna want to know. I hear accuracy comes in after 2 or 3 firings. Perhaps. I'm happy right now.

[MBTcustom]

Put a fork in it, it's done. That's plenty accurate enough for what a levergun is used for.