.475 Cooper in the T/C Contender? (even shorter than .480 Ruger) - other >45 options?

[MatthewVanitas]

I'm looking to get back into the T/C Contender in the next year or so, and have been pondering getting just a few barrels to cover a wide "span" of shooting experiences. I don't really hunt, and have no particular sport in mind other than maybe silhouette shooting, so just looking for things that are fun to load for and to shoot at paper, gongs, pumpkins, etc. So far I'm pretty sure I want a .22LR like I had for my past T/C, then something small and fast like a .20 VarTarg, and something right in the middle like a 6.5 TCU which is also supposed to be great for silhouette.

The thing I'm pondering is what to have at the top end. The easy answer would just be to get a .44 Mag or .45 Colt, or a .444 Marlin or 45-70. However since I'll be handloading all these I figure I might as well get something interesting and unusual, and I've always had a fascination for the less-used bore sizes. The T/C gets pretty limited at the upper range due to pressure/back-thrust issues, but since for the big end I don't really need any huge amount of speed since I'm not hunting, I'd be fine with a nice big bore even if it couldn't break the speed of sound, just a veritable catapult for slowly and lazily hurling big boolits downrange.

I looked into .480 Ruger, but it appears even that can get too warm for the Contender, so people only offer it in the Encore. But then I've run across just scant whispers online about the .475 Cooper. Apparently is was designed to be the "Special" to the Linebaugh's "Magnum", but the .480 Ruger came along and took that position, making the Cooper kinda a ".475 Short". Anyone have any familiarity with this cartridge? Does it seem a feasible way to get a .48 bore on a Contender without unsafe pressure?

Apparently a number of years back American Handgunner had a short Taffin article on it, but it's no longer available online. However a post on another forum is quoting some work that I can only assume is that A/H article, so I can get the gist of it: http://singleactions.proboards.com/thread/68/475-special . The brass is a Ruger .480 trimmed from 1.285" to 1.25", so a smidge shorter:



Both Wilson and his gunsmith, Larry Cooper, consulted with John Linebaugh, then had Cliff LaBounty rebore and Dave Adams rechamber a .45-70 Contender to .475 Cooper. Then the testing began. Wilson settled on a load of 20.0 grs. of H4227 under a 380 gr. bullet in the Contender barrel.
...
Wilson found 17.0 grs. of H4227 was a very pleasant shooting load. I went with 17.5 grs., because that was where my first setting of the powder measure happened to fall. These clocked at 725 fps, a most pleasant shooting 725 fps, and certainly would anchor any whitetail or mule deer that ever walked.
...
This is a low pressure round.
...
I originally tried to give this cartridge to Ruger and Vincent Sanetti refused. Now they make a very similar round -- that .480 -- but at a higher pressure.
...
I feel like I have shot my best shot with Ruger. But if a lot of people are interested, they should tell them that there is a demand for a six shot low pressure .475 like the Cooper."


So at least the developer managed to get it into a Contender (and later a 6-shot Blackhawk). Was that at all an edgy option, or would this be a reasonably safe chambering for a T/C barrel? Which of the handful of custom T/C barrel makers out there might potentially be open to doing this?


I'm open to any other suggestions for a "huge and slow" option that won't blow out or stretch out the Contender frame (I'd be getting a new G2 model). I've heard .500 S&W Special mentioned but not finding much pressure info on that, and I've seen mention of 50-70 in the T/C mentioned in this same forum in older posts, though not sure if that's an edgy niche thing or a totally valid option.

The only thing I've handloaded up to this point is .32 H&R in a Ruger Single Six, but I found it surprisingly easy and fun, so I'm looking forward to finding something massive-but-mellow for my future T/C.

[Tatume]

Welcome to the forum.

JD Jones has some interesting Contender cartridges. I have a 14" 309 JDJ barrel that I like, but I don't load it to full potential. At 2300 fps with 150 grain bullets it does all I ask of it, and I don't worry about stretching the Contender frame.

Send Jones an email and ask him; I expect he will answer you personally and quickly. He's pretty good that way. Let us know what you find out.

Take care, Tom

[CT-shooter777]

Welcome to the forum.

JD Jones has some interesting Contender cartridges. I have a 14" 309 JDJ barrel that I like, but I don't load it to full potential. At 2300 fps with 150 grain bullets it does all I ask of it, and I don't worry about stretching the Contender frame.

Send Jones an email and ask him; I expect he will answer you personally and quickly. He's pretty good that way. Let us know what you find out.

Take care, Tom


Doesn't Jones do a 50-70 gov. in a contender ?

[Tatume]

He sure does: "A 50-70 CONTENDER Carbine is a handy, efficient big game unit for big game at close range or just plain fun shooting."

http://sskindustries.com/rifles/

If it works in a Contender carbine it will work in a Contender pistol. That's not to say I would want to shoot it.

[leadman]

Thought JD passed away a while back?? Company is still there though.

Several of the cartridges you mentioned are too warm for a Contender. I own a 6.5TCU and it is a great cartridge but I see written many remarks that it is a little short on power for hard set targets. The 7 TCU is supposed to much better. The antelope I shot a 255 yards with the 6.5 TCU must have missed the remarks about low power as he expired very fast.

I also have a couple of Encores and they do a very good job and will handle some powerful cartridges. I would go for an Encore in your situation and have a trigger job done on it.

[Tatume]

I just talked to him a couple of weeks ago. He will be 79 years old on November 21, and is well.

[MatthewVanitas]

Load Data has a pretty interesting page on loads for the 50-70 SSK Contender barrel: http://www.loaddata.com/members/search_detail.cfm?MetallicID=472



I own a 6.5TCU and it is a great cartridge but I see written many remarks that it is a little short on power for hard set targets. The 7 TCU is supposed to much better. The antelope I shot a 255 yards with the 6.5 TCU must have missed the remarks about low power as he expired very fast.

I've read some back-forth on the suitability, mainly like you mention whether it's enough for the distant rams. Though plenty of folks who seem to be serious into IHMSA who say that it's enough if used properly, and pays off in lower recoil and other virtues. Also another good writeup on some extensive testing of the cartridge for shooting steel: http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/rifle-silhouette-and-competition-target-shooting/6-5-tcu-for-hp-silhouette-for-recoil-shy-shooters/

I'm willing to give the 6.5 a shot. :)



Several of the cartridges you mentioned are too warm for a Contender.
....
I also have a couple of Encores and they do a very good job and will handle some powerful cartridges. I would go for an Encore in your situation and have a trigger job done on it.

Which of the ones I mention? The 50-70? Or there are others I've mentioned like the Linebaugh that are certainly too hot for a Contender, I'm just mentioning them as a baseline to see what's vaguely similar but slower and much lower pressure.

I'm familiar with the Encore, I just don't find it as appealing as the Contender, especially for shooting off-handed. Plus part of the "fun" of the Contender for me is having to use wildcats to work within the limitations of the gun, as well as the limitations of using 10"-14" barrels. If I were looking for big blasting power, I'd certainly go Encore, but part of the question/goal is working within the limitations of the smaller frame. I'm not looking to recklessly jam Encore-class cartridges into a Contender, or even press the limits of frame-stretching, but just trying to figure out how big-bore a Contender can go with a slow, low-pressure round.


So far as .475 Cooper, there was a fellow called PPpastordon on Paco Kelly's Levergun Forum who mentioned having (http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=20450&p=249159) a 16" T/C Contender carbine barrel in .475 Cooper, but Don hasn't posted on either Paco's or on his own Wordpress blog since 2008 or so, so it may be he's left us. He is/was also a member here on CB: profile (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?888-PPpastordon)

[Tatume]

Hi Matthew,

Are you familiar with Mike Bellm's web site: http://bellmtcs.com/store/

There's lots of good, reliable, information to be found there.

Take care, Tom

[MatthewVanitas]

Oh yeah, I bought a .45 Long Colt T/C barrel from Mike back in 2002, being influenced by Taffin's writings about big .45 slugs. I might could drop Mike a line and see if he has any thoughts on the .475 Cooper, though since he works off of modifying existing barrels I'm not sure he could produce one, but likely he has some opinion on the idea.

EDIT: just dropped Mike a line.


I just sent $4 to FMG Publications to get a .pdf of this article emailed to me:
-- HJF0140 The .475 Cooper is a more sensible bigbore alternative. John Taffin Jan/Feb 2001. Taffin Tests

Not accessible online currently, though I think the forum post I link above quotes a large chunk of it. But I figure it's only a few bucks, and it is how they make a living, and it would be good to have the full article in context, especially since I believe it has some very basic load data.

[Tatume]

You're right, Mike Bellm is another person who will write back to you, and without much delay. He likes to talk about his favorite subject.

[Tatume]

JES might rebore a Contender barrel for you. http://35caliber.com/ His prices are reasonable and he has a solid reputation.

[MatthewVanitas]

I just checked JES, and he does .45 and .50, but .475 is not on his extensive list.

That said, the Taffin .475 Cooper article just came to me over email, and it is pretty much just the short article someone posted in the link I gave in the OP. But it's still good to have the original, nice photo, and support the writer/publisher.

The article mentioned the Cliff LaBounty rebored a 45-70 barrel to .475 Cooper, but he's retired now. I unwound the yarn a little and found that he sold his business to Jim Dubell, and that led me to Clearwater Reboring (http://www.deltagunshop.com/clearwater_reboring/calibers_twist_rates.html). And they do indeed rebore for the proper .475 Linebaugh diameter. So that solves the bore bit, just depends if it's a reasonable option to use a .480 Ruger reamer, but stop at 1.25", to get a .475 Cooper chamber which will prevent loading the Ruger round.

At Clearwater, a rebore is $180, while a rebore and rechamber is $475 (coincidentally). Plus I'd need to lay hands on an expendable T/C bull barrel in the first place. Whereas SSK does full new Contender barrels from $395 (blued pistol) to $505 (stainless carbine). There is such a thing as a .475 JDJ, so presumably they can produce the right bore, and I'd imagine they have a Linebaugh or Ruger chamber reamer?

[Tatume]

Hi Matthew,

JD Jones will make just about anything you want, within reason. Just ask.

info@sskindustries.com

Take care, Tom

[MatthewVanitas]

Heard back from JD already, and he says that the .480 Ruger is fine in the Contender provided people stick to moderate loads. So far as "moderate loads" in the Ruger go, would that imply using only light bullets, or if I'm fine with low velocity could I use bullets into the 400grs, if they're like down in the 700-900fps range?

For liability purposes, is there any convention to putting "LIGHT" on the barrel or something, or do you just depend on people being smart enough not to hotrod a Contender with a barrel in .300 Savage (which SSK also makes) or similar cartridges that can damage a Contender with published rifle loads?

From what I understand from his email, they could chamber the barrel in .475 Cooper itself, basically a 1.25" Ruger, but that'd be another nearly $200 for a custom reamer, if I read him right.

[CT-shooter777]

For liability purposes, is there any convention to putting "LIGHT" on the barrel or something, or do you just depend on people being smart enough not to hotrod a Contender with a barrel in .300 Savage (which SSK also makes) or similar cartridges that can damage a Contender with published rifle loads?


Funny you should mention that, a SSK barrel in 7BR was for sale on ebay awhile back and was marked "factory or reduced loads only" in the engraving, problem solved, any potential guilt removed.

I suspect Contenders are capable of handling other factory rounds, problem is as you mentioned, hotrod reloading, which I don't do anyway.

[MatthewVanitas]

Heard back from Mike: he is firm on not going above .45 bores in Contenders, which I can totally see. A very different expert opinion from JDJ, though I note with some trepidation that SSK mentions that their 50-70 barrel is iron-sights only because there's not enough meat to bolt down a scope mount...

I have a number of months before I need to make any decision on this, so I'll ponder for a while if I want to get edgy and get a .480 Ruger barrel from SSK or MGM, or go more conservative and get a smaller bore that has more room for error.

If I were to go smaller, having that drive to be a "special snowflake" I think I'd skip entirely over the 44/45 area and go right for a 41. Again, just got that yen for unusual bore sizes. Best of my knowledge, there are only a couple firmly established .41 wildcats and only one or two factory options: .41 Mag, .414 Supermag (lengthened version of former), a couple different .41 wildcats of the .444 Marlin, and then GNR has several .41 wildcats formed by necking down the .44 Mag, .445 Supermag, and .454 Casull. Oh these, would .414 Supermag make the most sense, since I don't hunt? Plenty of power, and since it's a straight-wall case couldn't it be used for Field/Hunter's Pistol silhouette matches? A .41 won't quite get up to a one-ounce slug, but I've seen loadings as high as the low 300s, and that's still sizeable. Does going with the longer .414 case cause any difficulties in loading up much softer-recoiling loads? Again my main point of interest is relatively slow loads with heavy bullets.

[Tatume]

The Sierra manual describes the 414 Supermag as "temperamental." This does not surprise me. It combines a large volume case with a relatively small bullet (in conventional jacketed form). However, using heavy cast bullets as you indicate, would overcome this problem.

If you wish to use the 414 SM you may want to acquire cases now. They are presently available at Starline, as are 445 Supermag cases:

https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/414-Super-Mag-Brass/index.cfm

https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/445-Super-Mag-Brass/index.cfm

Mike Bellm likes the 44x356 Winchester, and that cartridge could be adapted to 0.410" bullets, although full-custom dies may be required. The 44x356 Winchester uses shortened 444 Marlin dies, and cases could also be made from 444 Marlin cases. I know of no currently available 444 Marlin or 356 Winchester cases.

Take care, Tom

[MatthewVanitas]

Hmmm... if brass is an issue and the longer cart can get "temperamental", then maybe .41 Mag would be a safer way to go. Not quite as weird as other wildcats, but still an unusual bore, easy to load for, and as I understand it could do bullet weights into the low 300s with the right throat and loading?

Of course, if I'm willing to go as low as .41 then that opens up the danger of "why not .40?". I stumbled across an article on the Los Angeles Silhouette Club's site, which details some very positive experiences loading the 40-50 Sharp for the Contender. It has a very slight but consistent taper, so not sure if it counts as "straight wall" for IHMSA purposes, though apparently there's also a 40-50 Sharps Straight, but it certainly is an interesting option. There seem to be a number of writeups about this on CB, so I need to dig around. It's a narrower bore than I was thinking previously, but I'm seeing folks online mention bullets into the 400grs in this chambering, so the weight is certainly there.

Not to sound like I'm completely all over the place or not reading the other posts, I'm still pretty consistent as to what I'm looking for, heavy and slow with a big bore (though maybe just >40 vice >45), and I've got a much better fix now what the range of options are, though I'm certainly open to any other suggestions.



Also reading Mike Bellm's site exposed me to one of the few cartridges I'm now considering over the 6.5 TCU (which just fascinates me): 6.5x50R Bellm. It's almost the same thing as the 6.5 TCU, but rimmed, which I suppose helps with both extraction and headspacing (spaces on the rim, not the shoulder, thus more consistency?). Apparently 5.6x50R brass is not always easy to come by, but I would only need a hundred or so pieces of brass at any given point in time. It's reloadable with 6.5 TCU dies and .357 dies (not quite sure how those work together, but that's from Mike's own page).

[Tatume]

Rimmed cartridges offer superior extraction in tip-up guns, but should be resized so as to head space on the shoulder. This reduces work hardening of the brass, and offers more consistent positioning of the cartridge in the chamber.

[MatthewVanitas]

Do you see any advantage in Bellm's "6.5 TCU-Rimmed" then, or is it much of a muchness with the basic .223-based TCU?

[Tatume]

I had a 7mm TCU barrel for years, and never once had an issue with extraction. The 6.5 TCU should be similarly reliable.

The TCU cartridges are based on the more abundant 223 Remington case, not the 221 Fireball. The full case length of the 223 is used (1.76"), whereas the 221 Fireball is based on a shortened (1.40") 222 Remington case (1.70").

[Tatume]

Hmmm... if brass is an issue and the longer cart can get "temperamental", then maybe .41 Mag would be a safer way to go. Not quite as weird as other wildcats, but still an unusual bore, easy to load for, and as I understand it could do bullet weights into the low 300s with the right throat and loading?

The safest option is the boring old 44 Rem Mag. After having tried many different big bore pistol cartridges, I've come to the conclusion that Elmer Keith was right more than half a century ago. The cartridge easily propels 300 grain bullets faster and with more recoil than most people want to endure. With the right twist rate, it will handle bullets of much greater weight (length, actually). In the lighter bullet weights recoil is relatively mild, and 240 grain bullets will do just about anything a handgun should be asked to do. Selection of components is vast, and they are available.

In my 14" SSK barrel I easily achieve 1600 fps with 240 grain bullets, and accuracy is outstanding. My 10" T/C barrel is also excellent.

[MatthewVanitas]

Yeah, .44 Mag definitely is one of the simpler answers, but .41 Mag would be slightly more exotic, while still having readily available brass, and though not as huge a selection of bullets still a decent one, and plenty of reloading data.

As much as the idea of the 40-50 Sharps Straight excites me (my long-term fantasy is to someday shoot BPCR with a 40-65 rolling block), the LASC site summarizes it pretty simply: http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Cast_HP_Contender.pdf


For those of you thinking that this is basically a .41 Magnum with 1880s panache, you get a gold star.

So yeah, as a novice reloader with only basic experience in revolver cases, .41 Mag would be way easier than trying to shape new brass and slug bores to do a 40-50 right.


Thanks for the comment on the TCU probably being the easier option rather than finding and reshaping obscure Euro brass for the 6.5 Bellm. Although even on the .223, I've never done necking up or fireforming before, so that's a little offputting. Though I do note that (for a price) Midway has allegedly properly-headstamped fully-shaped 6.5 TCU brass; is that too much of the chicken way out, or a reasonable way for a novice reloader to remove some variables while still getting a feeling for loading the cartridge?

[Tatume]

My 41 Rem Mag guns are among my favorites; you won't go wrong on that path.

When I started shooting the 7mm TCU I was a poor college student who couldn't afford to purchase new cases. So I sized and primed 223 Rem cases, put some Bullseye in them (I forget how much, maybe four grains or so), loaded them in the Contender while keeping the muzzle up, and fired them. Voilà, 7mm TCU cases.

Later, when I could actually afford some new cases, I skipped that step. Necking up fired and resized cases causes splits and out-of-round necks, but the same is not true of new cases (or fired cases that have been annealed). New cases are simply sized in the 7mm TCU FL die, and perfect cases result.

Recently I was the high bidder on a pristine Remington XP100 in 7mm BR; I'm still waiting for it to be delivered. When I couldn't find any 7mm BR cases I ordered 100 Lapua 6mm BR cases. They were converted to 7mm BR by sizing (properly said, expanding). They are loaded with IMR4895 and Sierra 120 grain bullets, and are sitting on my desk at this moment. I'm actually somewhat pleased to be using the 6mm cases, as it has a wildcat flavor about it.

[Fluxed]

The .375 JDJ was my favorite Contender cartridge - based on the .444 Marlin case. Another slightly smaller case I'd consider would be either .38-55 or .375 Winchester. Any of those would be a great Contender chambering.

[Geraldo]

First, the Contender is sort of love/hate. Some love them, others don't. I wouldn't recommend getting tied up in something exotic until you know you love them.

Second, you don't have any wildcat experience. Not a big deal because nobody else did either at one time. If you want a wildcat I'd recommend an easy to form wildcat that uses common brass to start. The TCUs, .357-44, or similar. IMPORTANT-before you buy the barrel make sure you can find or afford the dies.

Third, if I had to pick just one of my fifteen or so Contender barrels to keep, it would be my first: a 14" .44 mag. It broke a scope and a grip screw but it shoots nearly any load into ragged holes at 50 yards and about 3" at 100. I have a twin barrel in .41 mag but it doesn't do anything better than the .44.

Finally, I use an Encore for big calibers. I did not enjoy my .375JDJ Contender barrel, but I like rifle calibers in 15" Encore barrels. YMMV.

That's the sum of my advice based on nearly thirty years of shooting and loading for TCs. Have a blast and don't shoot your eye out ;)

[dubber123]

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh83/dubber123/IMG_3023.jpg (http://s254.photobucket.com/user/dubber123/media/IMG_3023.jpg.html)

I like my 6-1/2" 50-70. A longer barrel would be much easier to load for. I get a 450 to 1,000 Fps., but thats about it.

[Tatume]

Now that's sharp looking!

[MatthewVanitas]

Wow! Is that a Bulberry rollmark I see? I don't see that on their current list (though I do think I vaguely recall seeing on that on their list years ago). Do they no longer offer it, or is it own of those In-N-Out style "you have to know to ask for it" sort of things?

Did it come with any strict caveats as to what kinds of loads you should/n't use in it?

EDIT: Oh wait, is that an Encore frame or a G2? If Encore that makes a lot more sense for being able to withstand that round. But that looks like a G2 selector-switch on the hammer?

[dubber123]

It's a G2. I had it on my old, original style frame that had been rebuilt once and was on it's last legs. Bullberry didn't list mine when I purchased it either. No caveats as to loads were given to me. The short barrel was a major PITA to load for, but it is very accurate, as least by my standards. I shot 3 back to back 3 shot groups at 50 yds. all in the .8" range. The trigger is about 2# on this example. It did better with 450 gr. or less boolits than with heavier slugs. Recoil isn't bad at all.

[MatthewVanitas]

Good deal, I imagine you take less risk of stretching on the G2 frame.

Not to sidetrack too much, but I've been googling up but not finding many conclusive answers about opinions as to the G2 vs original Contender models. I understand the G2 is more Encore-like with a few of its changes like re-cockability, sturdier, and slightly heavier. And I've read that some people firmly prefer the pre-G2 Contender, and some say that it's impossible to get the G2 trigger as good as a Contender trigger. Is this kind of a Ford vs. Chevy thing where it's a lot of subjective/aesthetic argument, with some grumbly nostalgic "I like the old ways", or is it genuinely "no IHMSA champion would ever own a G2 because it simply can't shoot as well"? Not that I'm going to be a champion, just wondering if a G2 is a genuine handicap in silhouette. I actually kind of like the lines of the G2, the increased durability is appealing, and also I really want a stainless frame since I'm one of those guys with caustic sweat, where I got rust spots on the grip of a parkerized 1911 by the time I drove home after an IDPA match on a warm day.

Been pondering more and more, and I'm pretty sure I'm going to start with a .22 Hornet since that seems to rule the roost for Field/Hunter's Pistol silhouette, plus I like low recoil and it seems fun to load for. Then I think I'd get a 6.5 TCU for Big Bore if I stick with it. So with the practicalities of actual sport covered, when I do decide to go biiiig it's going to be just for fun, so I'm feeling more and more that a .480 Ruger/Cooper or .50-70 is in my long-term picture.

I'm glad to see my memory wasn't faulty, as I was pretty sure I recalled 50-70 being on Bulberry's website some 10-15 years ago when I used to drool over that. That's where my weird confusion with "I think I saw a .577-450 once" came from, I'm quite sure.

Dubber, if you had to do it over again with what you know now, what barrel length would you find optimal for your 50-70?

[dubber123]

Good deal, I imagine you take less risk of stretching on the G2 frame.

ore that a .480 Ruger/Cooper or .50-70 is in my long-term picture.


Dubber, if you had to do it over again with what you know now, what barrel length would you find optimal for your 50-70?


For what I wanted it for, I would still go with the 6-1/2". I wanted a light, portable big bore with a good trigger and excellent sights that would approximate a mid range .500 Linebaugh. This does just that. The only thing I would like to try is a faster twist. I was recommended the 1-26" twist for cast when I ordered it. 1-16" was an option. I haven't shot it much past 50 yds. and while very accurate, I wonder how it would do at longer range.

If portability wasn't a major concern, a 10" or longer would make loading so much simpler.

[MatthewVanitas]

That would indeed be quite handy, almost large-revolver size. To one degree I'd think I'd tend to go 16" on a 50-70 barrel so I could use it either as carbine or pistol, but I imagine shooting it offhand in a 10" would be quite an experience.

in either case, would certainly fulfill my "mortar like" interest for ringing gongs at longer range.

[Groo]

Groo here
I don't know if he will BUT you might ask JD if he would make you a barrel in 411JDJ.
Mine is a 10in with open sights and a Super Arester Brake [cast friendly]
With 200 to 220 gr you can get around 2000fps.[ string flat to 100yds]
I also have the 295gr cast SSK mold.
Some have gotten this bollet up to some speeds I won't mention here [skered]

[Ramjet-SS]

My thought is get the Encore then you will be fine with 480 or even 475 Linebaugh if you desire. But the 480 Ruger with 355 grain WFN CG over some U inquest is great easy shooting accurate round that will run a deer from front to back at a paltry 1000 FPS. To me the 355 grain is ultimate bullet and weight for the 480 Ruger. Wider variety of caliber options with the Encore. Plenty of them for sale.

[Tatume]

My brother has two Encores, a rifle and a pistol. Personally, I prefer the Contender. As a pistol it is much handier. It is actually pistol sized, whereas the Encore is huge by comparison. As a rifle I don't like either one; the stocks won't fit me. My brother likes his Encore rifle. To each his own.

[Ramjet-SS]

yea liking guns is very subjective that is for sure. But looking at the possibilities the Encore wins hands down, as it handles higher pressure rounds and thus it has a wider variety of cartridge offerings and loadings a within those cartridges. Sure the Contender is and can be slightly handier. Put that shorter barrel on the Encore, it as well can be shot offhand with good accuracy. As far as the rifles go? I really like the Encore rifles especially with the thumbhole laminated stocks and good glass atop. The Contender and the Encore are really incredible guns with unlimited flexibility and fun factor.

[Ramjet-SS]

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh83/dubber123/IMG_3023.jpg (http://s254.photobucket.com/user/dubber123/media/IMG_3023.jpg.html)

I like my 6-1/2" 50-70. A longer barrel would be much easier to load for. I get a 450 to 1,000 Fps., but thats about it.

Very nice I really like that setup.

[Tatume]

yea liking guns is very subjective that is for sure. But looking at the possibilities the Encore wins hands down, as it handles higher pressure rounds and thus it has a wider variety of cartridge offerings and loadings a within those cartridges. Sure the Contender is and can be slightly handier. Put that shorter barrel on the Encore, it as well can be shot offhand with good accuracy. As far as the rifles go? I really like the Encore rifles especially with the thumbhole laminated stocks and good glass atop. The Contender and the Encore are really incredible guns with unlimited flexibility and fun factor.

Yes, liking guns is very subjective, and I don't deny the value in the Encore. However, I wouldn't go so far as to say "hands down." The Contender is not "slightly handier." It is very much handier, lighter, and smaller. Also, how much do you want in a handgun? My 309 JDJ is all I want to shoot, as it will readily whack me in the face if I'm careless with the grip. Firing a 150 grain bullet at 2500 fps (I only load mine to 2350 fps) is plenty from a handgun, and I would not want to shoot more in an Encore, even though it weighs a pound more. No way am I interesting in shooting the 300 Win Mag in any handgun, although the Encore handles it just fine.

[Ramjet-SS]

I get what you are saying however the extra heft takes the recoil and muzzle brakes are really effective at taking the recoil as well.

personally I am Big Bore guy except for a couple of center fire for those shots on Elk size game that require some longer distance shooting. I also am saying from both platforms for example I have a Encore rifle setup with a 17" BBL in a 458 diameter cartridge that little rifle is as handi as any I own. Velocities of 1800 FPS with a 350 grain bullet. Again I am not getting into what's better for YOU just saying the number of available cartridges that a frame will handle the Encore does more. It will shoot anything the G2 frame will and then the higher level cartridges to boot. Because it is designed to handle the higher pressure cartridges. So in my simple mind it makes it the better choice. You may think otherwise and that's OK I am good with whatever you want to shoot it's a personal choice.