Encore BBL. Legal?

[35 shooter]

I bought my Encore frame on a lay-a-way plan a few years ago. It came in a box with the flex type rifle stocks, but no bbl.
After paying the frame off, i went back to the same store and bought a rifle bbl. on lay-a-way for it.
The receipt for the frame says just that...frame and camo stocks.

My question is, since the frame didn't come with a rifle bbl. and was bought seperately, is it legal for a pistol bbl. now?
I think there is a law if sold as a rifle first you can't put the short bbl. on, but if sold as a pistol first you can switch either way?

Anyway this was sold originally as just a frame, although the rifle stocks did come with it. The person that sold it to me isn't there anymore, but the guy working there now says it would be legal for a pistol or short bbl.
I'm still not so sure, so thought i'd ask here?

Is it okay to put a handgun length bbl. on it since it was bought as a frame, but did have the rifle stocks in the box?
Btw, the price was the same for the stocks and frame as for just a frame would have been. 450.00 if i remember right.

[swamp]

I figure that if you use it as a pistol it should be alright. As long as you don't mount the pistol barrel with the butt stock mounted I believe you should be OK.
swamp

[35 shooter]

Yea, should have mentioned i'd be getting pistol stocks along with a bbl.
It was just bugging me about the law if it's bought as a rifle first you can't switch it around. This one wasn't bought as a rifle first, just a frame , but did have the rifle stocks in the same box with it when new.
Wasn't sure if that would relegate it to rifle only use or not.

[Tatume]

I suggest you ask the FFL to find the form 4473 and make a photocopy for you. This will probably be the basis for a decision.
a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA.

https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download

[LIMPINGJ]

When I bought a Contender frame many years ago TC included in the papers a reference to this. Contact TC and see if they will send it to you.

[Tatume]

The link I posted is the most recent information from BATFE.

[williamwaco]

I am too lazy to look it up for you but BATF has a special rule for the Contender.
I don't know if it applies to the Encore?

You can assemble it either way and change it back and forth but you CANNOT mix them. If you install a pistol barrel, you must install a pistol grip. You cannot install a rifle stock with a pistol barrel and vice versa.

[Tatume]

You do not have to look it up, I posted the link. What you said is not quite true. If the gun was originally sold as a rifle you may not convert it to a pistol.

Here it is again: United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Company, 504 U.S. 505 (1992)

https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download

[bdicki]

http://bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=239

[Tatume]

Exactly as I said in post # 4, you need the Federal Form 4473 to determine the status of the gun. If the T/C Contender was sold as a pistol it is legal to convert back and forth. If it was sold as a rifle, it is not legal. If it was sold as a frame, and was first assembled as a rifle, it is not legal.

Mike Bellm is correct in a practical sense, if not in by the letter of the law. My Contender is a pistol, it was shipped by the factory as a pistol, purchased new by me as a pistol, and I have never owned a Contender rifle barrel nor installed one on my frame. I agree with Mike Bellm that this is the only safe way to own a Contender, despite the law to the contrary.

[bhn22]

It's in plain English in the link. Do not assemble a firearm as a rifle with a barrel under 16 inches long unless you have it registered and taxed as a "short barreled rifle".

[Tatume]

It's in plain English in the link. Do not assemble a firearm as a rifle with a barrel under 16 inches long unless you have it registered and taxed as a "short barreled rifle".

That is not the issue, and is not in dispute.

The issue is this: if one purchases a Contender pistol, it is legal to remove the barrel and pistol grip and install a rifle barrel and rifle butt stock. It is also legal to now remove the rifle barrel and rifle butt stock and reinstall the pistol barrel and pistol grip.

If one purchases a Contender with a rifle barrel and rifle butt stock, it IS NOT LEGAL to remove them and install a pistol barrel and pistol grip.

The only way to tell one from the other is by documentation. One document that should settle the matter is the Federal Form 4473.

[bdicki]

The way I read it the dealer cannot change the legal classification of a firearm with a 4473. You have to check the serial number with the factory.

[Tatume]

The way I read it the dealer cannot change the legal classification of a firearm with a 4473. You have to check the serial number with the factory.

Nobody claims he can. The dealer can and does record the type of firearm on the 4473 at the time of the sale.

[bdicki]

Nobody claims he can. The dealer can and does record the type of firearm on the 4473 at the time of the sale.
If he buys it used how does he know how it left the factory. If I bought a rifle and changed it to a pistol then traded it in for another gun how would he know? How would I know if I bought a 20 year old gun used?

[4719dave]

oh my .,,im going to just buy a new frame ..

[35 shooter]

oh my .,,im going to just buy a new frame ..
Lol, sounds like the best way to be sure.
Ok, thanks everyone and since it came with rifle stocks in the box, sounds like i need to check with the factory to see how it's listed, or check with the dealer to look it up to see how they put it down.
Most likely it's listed as a rifle because of the stocks even though there was no bbl. originally.
Kind of hard for me to believe that a single shot that's made to be switched from handgun to rifle or any bbl. in between falls under such tight regulation.

Thanks again...i'll run a check on the serial no. to be absolutely sure!!

[Big Rack]

It has been many years but as I recall when TC first came out with Contender Carbines a pistol or frame sold as a pistol could be converted back and forth to a rifle, but a rifle or frame bought as a rifle could NEVER have a pistol barrel legally installed. I think this was even molded into the recoil pad.

[NavyVet1959]

As a side note... A 16+" barrel does not necessarily make something a rifle. A rifle must have a 16+" barrel AND the length must be 26+" total. A handgun must not have a buttstock, but there is no limitation on the length of the barrel. I've searched the ATF site and cannot find ANYTHING that says that a handgun must have a barrel of less than 16".

[oldred]

If he buys it used how does he know how it left the factory. If I bought a rifle and changed it to a pistol then traded it in for another gun how would he know? How would I know if I bought a 20 year old gun used?


It's up to YOU to check with the factory using the serial numbers otherwise you are taking the risk! "I didn't know or had no way of knowing" is NOT an excuse and will not excuse anyone who might be charged! If the form 4473 can't easily be located then the serial number and a check with the factory is the only way to know!

I myself got into this very thing about two years ago with a Contender Carbine that I was told had been sold as a pistol, a local dealer (very smart and good all-round guy) told me I had better make SURE before installing my 10" 357 barrel and don't rely on the non-sense from T/C since the BATF says differently, it turns out I was ok in this instance but the trouble and a small expense was worth the effort for the peace of mind.

The BATF is apparently not chasing after T/C owners who convert the receivers one way or the other but the real danger comes with the firearm being involved in another and unrelated situation. In any case, such as the firearm being stolen and recovered and especially if stolen and used in a crime, an investigation will ensue as to where the gun came from and who purchased it originally and if was sold as a rifle but is in pistol configuration the owner may be charged. Sure in that case you can argue that the thief changed it over but who wants to argue with the BATF and can you afford it? That's just one scenario of many that could cause the law, through no fault of your own, to trace the origins of the firearm in your possession.


If it comes down to a dispute between you and the BATF the feds will have the upper hand and even if you win it could cost you dearly!

[NavyVet1959]

If it comes down to a dispute between you and the BATF the feds will have the upper hand and even if you win it could cost you dearly!

The government has a lot more money to make your life miserable than you could ever think of having to protect yourself from said miserability.

[pietro]

.

FWIW, there's a mixed discussion here, that includes Contenders and the OP's question regarding his Encore frame - but the Federal Law rules for the Encore are different than those covering Contenders.

AFAIK, BATF has required T/C to designate every Encore frame as either a rifle or a handgun, before it leaves the factory - but Contenders were not.

A simple call to T/C Customer Service with the Encore's SN, asking to determine his Encore frame's designation, should answer the OP's question.


.

.

[bdicki]

It's up to YOU to check with the factory using the serial numbers otherwise you are taking the risk! "I didn't know or had no way of knowing" is NOT an excuse and will not excuse anyone who might be charged! If the form 4473 can't easily be located then the serial number and a check with the factory is the only way to know!

I myself got into this very thing about two years ago with a Contender Carbine that I was told had been sold as a pistol, a local dealer (very smart and good all-round guy) told me I had better make SURE before installing my 10" 357 barrel and don't rely on the non-sense from T/C since the BATF says differently, it turns out I was ok in this instance but the trouble and a small expense was worth the effort for the peace of mind.

The BATF is apparently not chasing after T/C owners who convert the receivers one way or the other but the real danger comes with the firearm being involved in another and unrelated situation. In any case, such as the firearm being stolen and recovered and especially if stolen and used in a crime, an investigation will ensue as to where the gun came from and who purchased it originally and if was sold as a rifle but is in pistol configuration the owner may be charged. Sure in that case you can argue that the thief changed it over but who wants to argue with the BATF and can you afford it? That's just one scenario of many that could cause the law, through no fault of your own, to trace the origins of the firearm in your possession.


If it comes down to a dispute between you and the BATF the feds will have the upper hand and even if you win it could cost you dearly!
That was my point.

[4719dave]

That's great im found this I have a encore rifle .I sold my contender a long time ago .grrrr .Found a guy on gun broker selling frames I got the it dosent matter so I stand to correct him .no call back guess it was a rifle frame .

[oldred]

.FWIW, there's a mixed discussion here, that includes Contenders and the OP's question regarding his Encore frame - but the Federal Law rules for the Encore are different than those covering Contenders.

AFAIK, BATF has required T/C to designate every Encore frame as either a rifle or a handgun, before it leaves the factory - but Contenders were not.

A simple call to T/C Customer Service with the Encore's SN, asking to determine his Encore frame's designation, should answer the OP's question.


In the beginning all Contenders were sold as pistols since that's all that was available but then later a small number were sold as carbines and I'm sure these were not sold as pistols so where is the difference?

[leadman]

BATFE published a letter in July 2011 stating that as long as you do not "make" a "firearm" (short barreled rifle) it is ok. Start with the frame, add the barrel you want,then install the correct stock or grip to match the barrel. Rifle stock, 16" or over barrel length only. This letter also addresses the pistol that has a rifle barreled stock that the pistol slips into. https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download.

Hope the above link works.

[Tatume]

This link is to the same document that I posted. It says:

Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA.

It is NOT LEGAL to produce a pistol from a Contender that was originally assembled or produced only as a rifle.

T/C sold some kits that had a rifle barrel, pistol barrel, shoulder stock, and pistol grip. So long as the parts weren't assembled in an illegal combination, this was legal. That is the reason the letter says "only as a rifle." If the Contender was in the kit, it was legal. If it was sold as a rifle, not part of the rifle/pistol kit, it is not legal to assemble the Contender as a pistol.

[oldred]

It is NOT LEGAL to produce a pistol from a Contender that was originally assembled or produced only as a rifle.





Correct!



BATFE published a letter in July 2011 stating that as long as you do not "make" a "firearm" (short barreled rifle) it is ok.

"Making" is not interpreted just as manufacturing from scratch or even a kit and just the act of assembling a barrel on a Contender or Encore frame is "Making" a firearm to the BATF!

[rbt50]

I had contenders starting in the early 70's all the way to 1999. no one will ever ask you if it was a pistol or rifle. just keep the right barrel and stock on it.i sold about 6 or 7 and their is no way to know how they came from the factory.i don't think any one is going to spend the time looking.

[Tatume]

I had contenders starting in the early 70's all the way to 1999. no one will ever ask you if it was a pistol or rifle. just keep the right barrel and stock on it.i sold about 6 or 7 and their is no way to know how they came from the factory.i don't think any one is going to spend the time looking.

Read post # 20.

[021]

All this goes to show the total stupidity of short barreled rifle (and OT, suppressor) laws, we can only hope at some point there will be a reasonable reassessment of them---they serve no purpose.

[Tatume]

Agreed. Have you ever examined a so-called "post-ban" AR15 (manufactured during the Clinton gun ban)? The flash suppressor is omitted and the bayonet lug is ground off. By what stretch of logic does that make the AR15 less lethal?

The only way to promote gun control is with lies.

[rosewood]

Can't remember the last time someone shot up a mall or school with a single shot encore or contender, whether it had a less than legal barrel on it or not.

As for the Brady bill, you could make a .22lr contender an assault rifle by just adding the correct accessories to it. While the above mentioned ar-15 or mini-14 was not. Shows how ignorant the gun grabbers are.

[oldred]

Shows how ignorant the gun grabbers are.

Ignorant doesn't even begin to describe it but we are however stuck with dealing with that kind of mentality! To those who think there is no way the BATF would ever check to see how the Contender/Encore was configured you had better think again! They will go by the letter of the law and common sense and logic will play no part in it, if for ANY reason a Contender/Encore is checked by the law (stolen and recovered, domestic dispute, questionable carry at a traffic check or any number of other reasons that could EASILY HAPPEN TO YOU!) and the records show a rifle but it is in pistol configuration you could very well be in deep,,,,,,,,,,you know what! Again you might, with a good lawyer and a LOT of money, beat the charge but is it worth the risk? You think it can't happen? Did you guys see the fella that got caught with a 230 year old original flintlock pistol in New Jersey? He was facing what would have amounted to a life sentence for him (he was 72) and that was just on a "technicality", he beat it but it cost him dearly! You can argue all you want here to us and it won't make a whet of difference if you too are facing just such a silly "technicality", again common sense and logic will be of no help to you if that "technically" illegal Contender/Encore is checked for ownership and it CAN HAPPEN TO YOU!

[Tatume]

In fact, he did NOT beat the charge. The prosecutor, under nationwide pressure, decided to drop the charge. Had he gone to court, the man would almost certainly have been convicted.

Note also, that New Jersey Governor Chris Christie made no effort whatsoever to intervene.

[oldred]

I wasn't sure how he got out of it, just that I read a few weeks back that the charges had been dismissed. I can't see how anyone can say the BATF would never check a Contender/Encore to see how it was sold, wishful thinking I suppose. ANY situation that would involve checking a serial number by LE to determine whether or not a gun was stolen or any number of other reasons could easily happen to anyone and if that check shows a rifle and the LE officer is looking at a pistol someone could be in a heap of trouble! Saying "they will never check" is just a case of burying one's head in the sand as the old saying goes since they could very well do so even if it is unlikely, unlikely and never are two entirely different things and given the hassles if someone is charged vs the likelihood of it happening it's just not worth the risk. It CAN HAPPEN!

[leadman]

The ENTIRE letter I posted needs to be read. The top portion of the letter states the law that is affected by the letter so readers will know what the bottom portion speaks of.
I did speak with the local ATF here in Phoenix and this letter does allow changing the Contender or Encore from a rifle to a pistol or pistol to rifle as long as one starts with a bare frame and uses the correct parts to make a legal pistol or rifle. It also allows the use of the rifle stock that has a rifle barrel mounted in it that a little pocket pistol is placed in to shoot thru the longer barrel.
When I spoke to the ATF I asked about changing the AR configuration and he said that was under review. I have not called to see what the outcome was but have not heard anything on the web.
The ATF did recommend I keep a copy of the letter with me if I do a change where it is viewed by others. Since I shoot at a very large public range here in Phoenix I do this. I did get a comment from one of the RSOs so I handed him the letter. The RSOs looked at it and handed it back to me, no problems. This range is run by The Game & Fish.
I also reconfigured my Encore from a pistol to a rifle in Wyoming while talking with 2 Wyoming Game & Fish officers who never said a thing.
Copy the letter and call your local ATF and see what they have to say about it. Would be interesting to see the responses.

[oldred]

Good timing on this thread, I looked a ML shotgun today that has 14" barrels. This thing is a replica of the old Stagecoach gun, double barrels and sidehammers, but is a BP muzzle loader so I am ASSUMING it's legal?????????

Anyway this thing is an awesome piece that was built from scratch by a friend of mine, if it is for sure legal I will try and get back with him for some pics because this thing is a joy to look at!