can red dot make a Ruger-only 45 colt load?

[Whiterabbit]

Hi Guys,

I'm putting about 15 grains of bluedot under a 255 grain LEE boolit for a nice heavy load for my large frame Vaquero. Just ran out of BD and it's unobtanium here. I can find red dot on the shelf. Worth swapping out? Anyone ever try to work up an accurate +p load (max or not doesn't matter) with red dot, using a 250-300 grain boolit? If so, what's your load?

Also, any gotchas working with red dot? is it forgiving? OK to compress? not OK? etc?

If it matters, it would be nice if it works for reduced loads for large capacity cases too. I have a load in the 510 wells with a 450 grain boolit and something like 27 grains of bluedot when I'm tired of shooting the 850 grain NOE with 70-90 grains of H4350.

[Vann]

I use Red Dot for normal pressure Colt loads. There is some old Hodgdon data that pushed the 45 colt up to around 30,000 psi but in my personal opinion you'd be better off using a slower powder like H110 or 296.

I'm really cautious about using a powder as fast as RedDot for such a high pressure load. As far as case capacity RedDot is about as bulky as BlueDot but you will be nowhere near the same charge weight.

I have the older manual in my shop and will post the data if you really want it but I do advise using a slower powder.

[Whiterabbit]

I do. Honestly, I would rather use 4198, but I have a feeling that is way too slow. I prefer not to use H110/296.

[Vann]

10-4
I'm in bed at the moment, if no one beats me to it I'll post the data tomorrow. Are there any other powders that you would like data for? If so I'll post it if I have it.

Vann

[Whiterabbit]

just those two if available. before the vaquero, I had all my shooting down to H4350 and IMR4198. That's really nice for stocking up on powder. Of course there are half-cans of 8 more powders for experimentation occasionally, but for fully ready to go loads, it's just those two. And now blue dot. clearly I need a backup plan, seems like reddot is the candidate. (also, that's why I'd rather use 4198. Cause it's already on the shelf in quantity.)

[44man]

I would not use any fast powder to approach heavy loads. RD might spike all at once.
296 is always my powder of choice.

[dubber123]

Red Dot is well on the fast side of powders, it is #13 on my 246 place burn chart. Blue Dot is #144. This gives you an indication of how much faster it is. I would not personally use it for heavy loads. You can certainly make Ruger only pressures, and you could very easily go well past those pressures with only a minor increase in charge. Even with all the pressure, velocities won't be nearly as high as with a slower powder. It to me would be better used making mild or standard power loads for your Vaquero.

[kens]

I have looked at red dot loads before, and they are the normal loads with light boolits.
I believe the red dot pressures rise quickly with heavy boolits.

[str8wal]

I think the pressure would become excessive well before you got to "Ruger only" velocity.

[Outpost75]

Sounds like a blowup recipe to me..... Ya got an old tire and a LONG string?????

DEFINATELY in the "Hold my beer and watch THIS!" category!!!!

[RobS]

Red Dot is simply too fast to get the velocity you are wanting in Ruger Only loads. You can get yourself high pressures no doubt but the velocity is not going to be there if you are comparing to your BD loads. As been stated Red Dot or any quick powder can go from stable to explosive in a quick turn when the powder is pushed to higher pressures. Best to load very light or use a different powder that has more flexibility.

[BCB]

I just did a “for instance” load with QuickLoad using Red Dot and a 250 boolit in the 45 Colt…

At 10 grains, you’re at about 33000 psi. That is a load that fills the case approximately 70% depending on seating depth…

11 grains puts you near 38000 psi…

You will be better using a much slower powder as has been recommended…

I use 300-MP, H-110 and Lil’Gun when I want “crazy” stuff from my Blackhawk. Don’t use them much though as they really aren’t that much fun to shoot…

Good-luck…BCB

[Blackwater]

Red Dot is designed at the outset to be a bulky, fluffy, fast burning powder so it'll ignite and burn consistently, and fill up space in shotgun hulls or light pistol loads. Using it for hot loads is definitely going outside its design parameters, and as several have cautioned here, CAN get you in trouble rather quickly if you don't know EXACTLY what you're doing and work up slowly from below. Powders like Red Dot that are designed to burn quickly don't tend to do well in hot loads. Their pressures spike way too early to get you the velocity you OUGHT to get at those pressure levels. It really should probably be done only by very experienced and knowledgeable loaders, but those usually want better velocity than RD offers at higher pressures, so normally avoid even tryiing, even though they could. Being ABLE to do something doesn't make it "smart."

[Whiterabbit]

Thanks guys, I appreciate it.

Last question, you guys cite hot loads. What's the difference between a 15ksi cartridge loaded hot (30 ksi) and a 65 ksi cartridge loaded way light? (30 ksi). In each of those cases the powder is loaded to the same pressure, but one we would call hot, the other we would call light. so do you guys consider red dot loaded hot at 30 ksi? or do you only consider it hot in a 45 colt at 30 ksi?

Just looking for final clarity. "Hot" seems awfully subjective to me.

[Whiterabbit]

ok, this one is really the last point for clarification. Since the only real reason cited here is burn rate, is it so foolish to consider 4198 in 45 colt? 4198 is "faster" on the burn chart than lil gun, so does that in fact make it a real candidate worth trying?

Since it seems red dot is not a good candidate to consider.

I could easily swap out my other IMR4198 loading for H4198 loading if it worked in the colt case.

[dubber123]

On my chart, IMR-4198 is #131, and H-4198 is #132. Hodgdon Lil"Gun is #108, which is a good bit faster than either. In fact it is faster than H-110 which is #111 on the chart. I don't think you would get in trouble with either 4198, but likely won't be able to get it to burn well at the lower pressures of the 45 Colt in a revolver. I would bet on erratic and low velocities. I'm not positive though, I have never tried it.

[Whiterabbit]

I was always lead to believe that burn rate in a single list was deceptive, since two powders might be many numbers apart but not really indicate how far apart they really are (ie if the 30 powders between them are all really close in burn rate than it gives a false illusion of one being much faster than another)

But still, on your list, faster is faster. this is the chart I was looking at:

http://i40.tinypic.com/9s9kih.jpg

I thought these charts were supposed to be better as they were to give a much better idea of the relationship between two given powders and their quantitative burn rate, not relative.

I could be wrong. If I am, could you correct my thinking, and tell me why the single ranked list is better? Helps me be a better reloader.

So I'm clear on 4198 then, since it's often loaded in 50ksi cartridges and used for cast boolit reduced loads in rifle cartridges, you think it wouldn't do well at the same pressure (reduced load for rifle = ruger pressure for 45 colt) as 45 colt? Again, so I can understand. Thinking rationally, if surely must be a rational reason it's not used, otherwise there would be data, common loading, etc.

I just can't get over "hot" for 45 colt vs "light" for rifles, since it's the same pressure. Especially given use in similar diameter boolit cases, so we don't have to worry about (for example) expansion volume as the boolit moves.

[Whiterabbit]

I just did a “for instance” load with QuickLoad using Red Dot and a 250 boolit in the 45 Colt…

At 10 grains, you’re at about 33000 psi. That is a load that fills the case approximately 70% depending on seating depth…

11 grains puts you near 38000 psi…

You will be better using a much slower powder as has been recommended…

I use 300-MP, H-110 and Lil’Gun when I want “crazy” stuff from my Blackhawk. Don’t use them much though as they really aren’t that much fun to shoot…

Good-luck…BCB

BCB, you were so kind to run this for red dot, would you be kind enough to run it for a flavor of 4198? Maybe that can help show why it's not used much. I assume because it won't be a 100% burn?

[Vann]

I've never seen data for IMR 4198 I do have data for 5744 that may could use to build a load but I would much rather use published data and buy a pound of powder than try to go off on my own. If you want the data for the I'll post it.

Now back to the Red Dot data. the hottest loads I have push a 255gr cast bullet to 1055 fps and a 300 gr cast bullet to 961 fps.
this is out of a TC barrel so you'll lose a bit of speed due to barrel length and cylinder gap. I'll post it if you want it but would rather you use a powder like IMR 4277, 800x,HS7,Little gun or power pistol

[RobS]

Thanks guys, I appreciate it.

Last question, you guys cite hot loads. What's the difference between a 15ksi cartridge loaded hot (30 ksi) and a 65 ksi cartridge loaded way light? (30 ksi). In each of those cases the powder is loaded to the same pressure, but one we would call hot, the other we would call light. so do you guys consider red dot loaded hot at 30 ksi? or do you only consider it hot in a 45 colt at 30 ksi?

Just looking for final clarity. "Hot" seems awfully subjective to me.

There is a point of what is considered a linear pressure curve and one that many reloaders prefer to use when approaching pressures that will unravel a firearm. There is better predictions to using more appropriate powder for a particular application. When you consider loading a Ruger 45 Colt to Ruger Only loads with heavy boolits most people want to ensure that they have all digits and eyes at the end of the day....end point. H110/296 is one of the most predictable powders near the top end of Ruger Only loads and is why it is often times chosen for maximum velocities in this caliber. Other powders that are similar in nature to H110/Win 296 can be used as well. Taking it down from H110/296 in my experience in the Ruger Only 45 Colt area would be: Enforcer/AA4100, LilGun, AA #9, 2400, Steel, BD etc.

Your thought of using 4198 will be a matter of not enough case volume to achieve velocities and likely not a long enough barrel for complete burn. I've used the bulky IMR 4759 and where as it did work alright the velocities were not on the topside (no way to cram enough in the case) and unburnt powder was the outcome even though accuracy was pretty decent. Long story short.......IMR 4759 was short lived on my list of powders for the Ruger 45 Colt loads. I could achieve the same velocities with less powder when using faster powders such as BD or Alliant Steel.

So would a hot 30K load be hotter than another............YES. I would classify a Red Dot load at 30K VERY HOT, on the edge of having pieces flying vs a 30K H110/296 load to be stable and consistent 30K Ruger ONLY load that I can count on not blowing my revolver's top strap sky high.

[kens]

Red Dot and 4198 are too far of extremes for 45LC. RedDot is too fast and 4198 too slow.
For a heavy 45LC load you need something like Herco, Blue Dot, 2400, 4227, maybe even Unique.
I have used 9.0gr Unique, and 15gr 2400, both are stiff loads in 45LC.

Blue Dot, 2400, is the way to go for heavy 45LC loads.

[BCB]

Here’s the reason for the slower powders…

Red Dot—9 grains—max. pressure @ .323” bullet travel—1126 fps—28K
4198—95% load density—max. pressure @ .382” bullet travel—1117 fps—18K
H-110—22 grains—max. pressure @ .782” bullet travel—1129 fps—16K

Pressure is lower for the H-110 load as the bullet travels over twice the distance before maximum pressure is achieved…

These numbers are NOT TO BE USED TO RELOAD A ROUND IN THE 45 COLT—PERIOD. QuickLoad data can be a bit deceptive if just placed on paper. It is a guide and that is basically all it is…

I would definitely forget Red Dot and 4198 for power house loads. There are reasons they aren’t in reloading manuals…

Just my thoughts…

‘Nuff said on my part…

Good-luck…BCB

[Whiterabbit]

Thank you BCB. And all. I will skip red dot. Not sure if 4198 is worth trying just yet for sure or not, but there's no reason not to keep a look out for local sources of bluedot. Very interesting that the model for the slower powder has the pressure peak sooner than the faster powder.

[DrCaveman]

Dont forget "the load" coined by ed harris, 13 grains red dot in military cartridges 35 whelen and larger, with standard weight boolits (if i remember correctly). This is not a low pressure load, probably 30-40kpsi in most guns, but it is pretty well tested to be safe.

I dont see why you couldnt get a nice 20kpsi load that does pretty close to what you want. And the powder really is pretty useful in reduced rifle charges, despite naysayers. I have seen over the years here that you think your loads through pretty well, you should be fine. If i saw a pound, i would grab it.

Not sure about 8 pounds, that would require that i was unable to find any of those other powders mentioned, like imr4227, AA#9, 2400... or of course h110. Fwiw, i used to not like h110...now i really do. Taking a few years off from it has really changed my perspective

[dubber123]

Whiterabbit, where are you located? Perhaps a member could help with your powder problem.

[Vann]

Red Dot is one of my favorite powders for the 45 colt, if you stay within the "OTHER PISTOL" non Ruger only pressures. I have the same 255gr 6 cavity Lee mold and it does very well at around the 900 fps range with Red Dot.

My point being that maybe you should grab a can just to play with until you can stock backup on Blue Dot. I buy all of my powder online and right now pickings are pretty slim.

If you list the other powders in stock I'm sure we can find one suitable for high pressure loads.

[35remington]

Red Dot when loaded prudently is not a derivative of dynamite.

Just be sure to load it within reason and don't ask it to do more than it is capable of doing. As a frequent use powder that gives traditional 45 Colt velocity at low economical charge weights it will be great. Use it like that.

[Geezer in NH]

I load 45 colt to it's traditional speed. I do not load it as a magnum. I want magnum loads I use a 44 mag.

I have not wrecked a gun by the way. Ruger or not want a mag use the mag.

[str8wal]

Ya, I don't think it is that it can't be used, but it's not gonna yield typical "Ruger only" performance and be safe to shoot in said Ruger.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I do. Honestly, I would rather use 4198, but I have a feeling that is way too slow. I prefer not to use H110/296.
I'm curious, why not H110/W296 ?
I think it's ideal for the application you are asking about (Ruger only 45 colt loads).

[Hardcast416taylor]

For a pleasant shooting load using a 255 gr. boolet use 6.5 gr. of Red Dot to about equal the old original factory load of about 900 +/- FPS. This is still a lethal load as I have taken deer with it with a single well placed shot.Robert

[DougGuy]

With heavy for caliber boolits: H110/W296 for 100% magnum loads, i.e. max Ruger Only loads. LilGun, 2400 for 75% ~ 90% magnum loads. Still in the Ruger Only (large frame only) category.

Anything lighter or slower just use Brian Pearce's Tier 2 load data which he published for medium frame Vaquero.

[flint45]

Red dot works great for me in .45 auto and .45 colt but light loads ONLY when I tried to push it alittle more the preassure went up quick.Keep it mild and you will have good results.

[Whiterabbit]

Will skip the red dot for this application. Thanks guys. I appreciate the thoughts.

[Outpost75]

Dont forget "the load" coined by ed harris, 13 grains red dot in military cartridges 35 whelen and larger, with standard weight boolits (if i remember correctly). This is not a low pressure load, probably 30-40kpsi in most guns, but it is pretty well tested to be safe.

I dont see why you couldnt get a nice 20kpsi load that does pretty close to what you want. And the powder really is pretty useful in reduced rifle charges, despite naysayers. I have seen over the years here that you think your loads through pretty well, you should be fine. If i saw a pound, i would grab it.

Not sure about 8 pounds, that would require that i was unable to find any of those other powders mentioned, like imr4227, AA#9, 2400... or of course h110. Fwiw, i used to not like h110...now i really do. Taking a few years off from it has really changed my perspective

Ed never intended The Load to be applied to handgun cartridges like the .45 Colt, that's too much of a stretch.....

[hpdrifter]

since I didn't see anyone directly answer your question about "hot", I'll hazard a statement.

Hot means on the upper end of a particular cartridges SAMMi rating. 30000 doesn't mean squat unless you relate it to a particular cartridge.

Others can correct me if I'm wrong.

[DrCaveman]

Ed never intended The Load to be applied to handgun cartridges like the .45 Colt, that's too much of a stretch.....

Agreed, and i see that my post was unclear. I was just commenting on the use of the powder for relatively high pressure loads with safety.

Of course, "the load" is not very high velocity, and would be a mid-range load at most in the rifle cartridges for which it is recommended. So if a similar approach were taken with the 45 colt, then the best one should hope for would also be mid-range loads (as compared to the Max ruger-only). I guess this might make it suitabable for some "tier 2" load levels as described by Pearce.

Still probably not ideal, but it (might be) a safe, relatively accurate load

[jonp]

I'm with everyone here I guess. I use a lot of Promo/Red Dot for target loads in 9mm, 38sp, 357mag, 45acp and 45Colt but not anything approaching what you are trying to do with that big of a case. It's just too fast I think and you are getting to a realm of spike that could be dangerous with no warning.

[TCLouis]

I don't know about full power load, but 6.1 grains of Red Dot or PROMO will give you about 780 fps with 255 grain boolit out of 6" barrel

[Whiterabbit]

well, as stated before, I'm giving up on red dot as an idea. Tried 4198 though. Every indication is that it would be like loading 50BMG powder in a bottleneck. Safe, just slow, probably dirty. Keep an eye out for ignition issues.

Tried 22, 23, 24, and 25 grains. All safe, all likely ruger-only level based only on perceived recoil. Not as punchy as H110 of course. No ignition issues. I use magnum primers, I don't know if that plays a role.

More testing is needed, but every indication is that 23 grains of IMR4198 under a LEE 255 RF boolit is more accurate than 24 grains H110 or 15 grains of bluedot. Those being the most accurate loads of those powders I have found yet. 24 H110 was my start load (and flattened the primer, didn;t even bother trying 25 and 26), so I loaded up 25 rounds of 23 grains of H110 to try for the next round.

Next range trip is two 25 round groups, using 23 grains each between IMR4198 and H110, head-to-head. Frankly, I am rooting for 4198. (I'll probably toss in the bluedot loads for a control)

I was told 4198 would shoot dirty. I was not disappointed. cases come out like shooting a light load of trailboss. top third of the case blackened. But I can live with a lot if it's the most accurate load.

---------

Rather than pull down the 25 and 26 grain H110 loads, figured I'd just shoot them in the BFR instead. They turned out a bit promising, actually. But not willing to try them in the vaquero. If I want a truly maxed out full house magnum firepower shot, I'll grab the BFR.

Anyways, jury is still out on 4198 truly being more accurate or not. But looks very, very promising so far.

[Whiterabbit]

you guys should know, I pinged hodgdon about 4198 in 45 colt. They were very responsive and frank. I appreciate that in a company. I respect them more than ever now. They have a few functional reasons not to recommend it which I don't need to mention, but I do bring it up due to part of the response that stuck with me: "There are 50 powders that will do the job better[hyperbole]". So while noted, it was very clear that there was no safety reason not to try 4198. Just the possibility that it would end up being inaccurate and then I move on.

Showed promise. So I'm excited. It was a good day at the range.

(insert image of "I love boolits" here)

[jonp]

I wonder if you have been beat over the head enough with red dot and high end loads or if someone else will make this a 4 page thread

All of the powder companies I have emailed with a question have responded within a day or two with to the point answers. Great customer service. When he said "50 powders" he was probably not far off if you include foreign powders like Vectan, Norma etc. I can think of 10 off hand I have tried. Can't say I've found any better at the top end than H110/W296 when I need to go that way.