what style bullet would you use

[xdmalder]

So here's the choices. I have a NOE 265 grain bullet mold in .454 diameter. It can be cast flat nose, cup point, or hollow point. The velocity will be between 1100 to 1300 fps. What style bullet would you use at what velocity? You can even state the alloy and hardness if you so choose. This will be for deer hunting out to 150 yards max but most likely under 100

[jabo52521]

I use a similar sized boolit to hunt deer. My choice is a solid for penetration. It's cast out of straight ww and driven at 1100 fps.

[MBTcustom]

Stick with the flat point. Cast it out of COWW + 2% tin air cooled. Shoot it at 1100FPS and listen for the pop.

[xdmalder]

Forgot to mention it has a meplat of .33"

[Grendel99]

They will all get the job done if you do your part. I'd throw in some pure with paper weights at a 1 lead to 2 ww's ratio (go higher or lower on the pure per your velocity and intended shooting distance.) with the cup point. Put that bullet through one or both of its shoulders and it will probably drop. If the deer doesn't, then follow the big blood trail the cup point bullets make on exit.

[runfiverun]

flat point, 11-1200 fps, and the slightly softer [than ww] alloy is my preference too.
I'm assuming this is from a lever gun.

[sharpsguy]

Flat point,ww, 1100-1200 fps, no question.

[Blammer]

I prefer the cup point and WW alloy, air cooled. :)

[xdmalder]

I never said if it from a rifle or pistol because some people have strange ideas of what a bullet from a rifle vs a pistol is capable of. It is from a levergun. I had Ranger Point Precision convert a Marlin in 44 Mag to 45 Auto.



142562

[BrentD]

I have a new bullet that I'll be using this year. A 420 gr flat nosed bullet case 40:1, paper patched and backed with an as yet undetermined amount of 3F Swiss.

For moose.

[Beerd]

a 45ACP levergun! now that's something you don't run into every day.
..

[xdmalder]

Yeah its a blast. He shortened a new Douglass barrel to 16.75". Short stroked the the lever and slicked the action. Bedded forearm and stock. Replace mag tube with an aluminum mag tube and lightened and balance the stock. It has a Skinner express sight with brass stem on it.

[Larry Gibson]

Cup point or HP cast of 20 -1 lead - tin alloy. Expansion will enhance terminal affect and if there is no expansion the terminal affect will be the same as with the flat point. Thus with many shots you gain some advantage with the expanding bullet. Penetration will be quite sufficient for deer.....probably through and through with the exception of a long raking shot or Texas heart shot (such shots I don't take, just my choice). I'm finding a Lyman 245 gr GC'd SWC HP'd of 20-1 alloy at 1300 fps to be a very effective cast bullet out of my own 45 ACP rifle (M98 Mauser with Rhineland conversion).

Larry Gibson

[xdmalder]

Bump up

[Michael J. Spangler]

No comment on what style to use.
Just have to say that rifle is awesome. I would love a 45 acp lever gun. Beautiful.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

I am not a cup or hollow point person due to the need for a consistent impact velocity being a requirement for consistent results as per expansion.

However, Larry makes some points considering the level of velocity you will be dealing with.

Were you to be confining your shooting distances to ranges where a full wad cutter would stabilize and providing they would feed reliably, they might be a worthy option to consider.

Using a Wide Flat Nose cast bullet, cast of 50/50 - Wheel Weights/lead and water quenched as they drop from the hot mold, in my 45/70, I am a firm believer in large meplats. Awesome results on deer and elk.

Also I much prefer the reliability and consistency of the WFN when compared to the iffy expansion results of the hollow point/cup point. The WFN is always wide, not requiring a consistent velocity level to obtain the desired expansion along with the possibility of "expanding bullet" over or under expansion at higher or lower impact velocity.

Just an Ol'Coot's thoughts on the subject.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[xdmalder]

I am not a cup or hollow point person due to the need for a consistent impact velocity being a requirement for consistent results as per expansion.

However, Larry makes some points considering the level of velocity you will be dealing with.

Were you to be confining your shooting distances to ranges where a full wad cutter would stabilize and providing they would feed reliably, they might be a worthy option to consider.

Using a Wide Flat Nose cast bullet, cast of 50/50 - Wheel Weights/lead and water quenched as they drop from the hot mold, in my 45/70, I am a firm believer in large meplats. Awesome results on deer and elk.

Also I much prefer the reliability and consistency of the WFN when compared to the iffy expansion results of the hollow point/cup point. The WFN is always wide, not requiring a consistent velocity level to obtain the desired expansion along with the possibility of "expanding bullet" over or under expansion at higher or lower impact velocity.

Just an Ol'Coot's thoughts on the subject.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

I was wondering if you would make a comment over on Marlinowners.com or not? Didn't know if you were over here or not. Right now this rifle shoots everything pretty good. Plain base. Gas checked. All different weights and I haven't even developed a load for accuracy yet.

The cup point is dropping at 263 grains and the flat point is dropping at 273 all with WW. Since the cup point is fairly deep and the hollow point is very deep, I'm leaning towards the flat point. I have only used cast on two deer with my 45-70 XLR with a RD 360 at around 1950. Results were pretty good. Just curious if with the velocities I mentioned with the meplat I will use is that enough to get more the .5" hole in .5" out. And if that is what is capable of is that enough? I tend to say yes it will be. My take without personal experience is this bullet at around 1250 and flap nose would travel through an elk nearly end to end. But I have no experience doing this. Kind of looking to see what some 45 Colt shooters are seeing with terminal effects of the old 255 at 900 fps.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

xdmalder,

End to end of a mature elk is a really long long ways and such performance would depend ------

I never really expected to retrieve one of my 465gr Wide Flat Nose bullets, but did so on a quartering shot in a big cow elk.

Bullet struck the heavy upper front leg bone before taking a rib, all the way through the lungs, a huge full paunch and stopped just under the hide ahead of the off side hind. Ended up at 327.9gr

Had the bullet not struck that big bone, I believe it would have exited and would the shot have been head on and not struck the spine, I suspect it would have exited.

I don't know if your 265gr bullet would be able to complete the trip on an elk or not.

My son put a .44 semi-wad cutter cast bullet of about 250gr end to end through a smallish white tail, but WOW an elk is a totally different and much larger critter.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot142677

[xdmalder]

I am saying end to end just to give perspective. I only take broadside shots. Even if I'm shooting my 300 win mag. I dont plan on using it for elk but on a broadside shot I don't think it would have a problem especially since I do boiler room shots only. I never go for a bone.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

xdmalder,

Hunting being what hunting is, a bone sometimes gets in the way.

The cow elk taken the year after the one from which I showed the before and after bullet photograph gave me a nice side to side behind the shoulder shot. Yet, when all was said and done, the near side entrance did take it through some of the near side shoulder tissue. The shot exited where expected, but something changed between the time the signal went from the brain to pull the trigger and the point at which the bullet impacted.

I hear what your saying, but you know what they say about the best laid plans of mice and men.

We plan and hope for the best, but once that trigger breaks, we'll take what we get.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[BrentD]

Personally, I think a 265 gr bullet in .45 caliber is way way too light. I'm sure an elk can be killed with it, but why such a light pistol bullet in a large bore rifle?

I am not a fan of the extra large size meplates and certainly not water quenched hard bullets etc. I guess there are multiple ways of doing things, but my way is soft and heavy, and it works very very well.

This little springbok was shot with a 535 gr bullet that did not pass through, yet, oryx, elk, hartebeest and other animals have all had pass throughs dependably with the same bullet and load. There is only so much you can guess about how a bullet will preform. Keep in mind it is a guess at best, not a certainty. Shooting critters is inexact business.

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/Africa%202006/Springbok.jpg

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

BrentD,

Check out the photograph about half way through the thread, and you will see the original poster is shooting a rifle, but from/with a SMALL handgun cartridge.

Would be hard to get the size bullets we like in that cartridge considering are bullets are a fair amount longer then his totally cartridge case length. :bigsmyl2:

Then, water quenches does not always mean the end result is "hard". For example, my 50/50 Wheel Weights/lead bullet would be very soft if not quenched.

I don't know how the photograph of my Wide Flat Nose bullet compares to the large meplats you dis-like, but I'll just say my experience shows it to be extremely effective on game.

Clearly you have had hunting experience that most of the rest of us just dream about!

CDOC

[BrentD]

CDOC - I did not realize that the .45 auto was actually being proposed as a big game rifle much less an ELK RIFLE! No, maybe he didn't really mean that. I definitely must be missing a few connecting dots somewhere. Heck, I wouldn't shoot a deer with a .45 auto. I guess it's just not for me.

FWIW, I consider your 50-50 WW and lead to be pretty hard, actually very hard. Any thing harder than 30:1 is hard in my book. 40:1 is better yet, and I've shot elk with pure lead from .45 caliber rifles and never recovered a bullet.

My dislike of the really large meplate is partly because I don't think the ballistics will hold up at some longer ranges. 200 yds and beyond being "long" in this case. And they may not penetrate all that well with the big meplat at longer distances. The soft lead will expand at least a little be it close or far and it won't fragment like some of the harder alloys can.

I also worry about the large meplats feeding well, but if they do, then they do and that takes care of that.

I don't have a bullet handy for my new moose bullet but it has a 0.25 meplate and is cast of 40:1. I have shot elk and eland with meplats of the same size and, though heavier and they worked well. This time, because I'm stuck with a little .45-70 in a multishooter (95 Marlin square bolt), I opted for a shorter bullet to leave room for lube and powder. The single shots I usually prefer allow much longer cartridge construction but this time, I'm restricted to shorter cartridges so a shorter bullet.

Anyway, 420 grs will be the lightest bullets I've used on game for a .45 bullet. I wouldn't want to get smaller than about 400.

Well, good luck to the .45 auto elk or whatever. I sure hope halitosis ranges are intended for such a venture.

Brent

[xdmalder]

And this is exactly why I didn't want to mention caliber, just velocity. People will get a preconceived notion of what something can do. A 45 auto can't kill a deer but a 45 colt from a cowboy pistol can. I already stated from my rifle I can push that bullet that weighs up to 272 grains up to at least 1300 fps. That's nearly 20 grains heavier and 400 fps faster than the old 45 colt standard.

[sharpsguy]

Brent--Are you shooting paper patch in that square bolt 95?

[BrentD]

I did not think much of your load before I knew it was a .45 colt. Still don't. 20 grains is not much more than 10%. No I know shooting deer with a .45 colt does it with 900 fps loads either. But it's your game. Personally, I would rather have a .22 lr and take head shots, and I don't much like that idea either. If you want a 10, maybe 15 yd deer gun, so be it. I don't see the point. To each his own I guess.

[BrentD]

Brent--Are you shooting paper patch in that square bolt 95?

of course

[xdmalder]

I did not think much of your load before I knew it was a .45 colt. Still don't. 20 grains is not much more than 10%. No I know shooting deer with a .45 colt does it with 900 fps loads either. But it's your game. Personally, I would rather have a .22 lr and take head shots, and I don't much like that idea either. If you want a 10, maybe 15 yd deer gun, so be it. I don't see the point. To each his own I guess.

Do you have any experience with this caliber going this slow with a meplat this size in order to speak against it? Or just don't think it's a good idea? It's within Veral Smith's displacement velocity recommendation.

[BrentD]

I've got some experience, quite a bit actually with .45 bullets going that slow. Meplats almost as large. And based on that, I don't like it on a number of fronts.

It's your gun, your hunt.

[Larry Gibson]

I didn't see where the OP, xdmalder, said anything about hunting elk. He stated it was for deer. Now if a 245 - 265 gr bullet is just fine for a deer out of a 45 Colt revolver at 850 - 1000 fps then why do we question the same bullet at 1300 fps out of a 45 ACP rifle as not being adequate?

Larry Gibson

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Like Larry said!

CDOC

[BrentD]

Like I said, it's xdmalder's gun and xdmalder's hunt. I sure wouldn't do it, but I'm no xdmalder.

[DougGuy]

The whole concept of the conversion kinda dropped when I read that it was converted to .45 ACP. This single fact really puts a damper on what can be done with the rifle IMO. I could see if it was .45 Win Mag, which would then be a game getter of a much higher order, capable of large game, dangerous game, as well as deer.

It's difficult to put a .45 caliber flat nosed boolit to 150yds and have accuracy, let alone a loss of energy along the order of 65% or better.

Yes a .45 ACP would take a deer but I would not choose it as my primary deer hunting caliber even with the German Shepherd sized deer we have here in North Carolina.

xdmalder, you have a DANG FINE rifle, and those 255gr boolits are great for deer if you can get them into the 1175fps ~ 1250fps velocity range with your .45 ACP cartridge. For alloy I would recommend 50/50+2% with soft lube like Felix. Flat point, no cup or hp will do nicely.

As far as the range, you would need to shoot it and see how far it will hold a half decent group and then that would be the max effective range you could expect to hunt with it. I think 75yds to 100yds will be more realistic than 150yds but I could be wrong.

I think if I had that rifle, I would chamber it for something near the case volume of the .45 Schofield and use cut down .45 Win Mag brass to fine tune a 280gr flat nose to 1300fps and call it good. To me, it just needs a longer case than .45 ACP.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

DougGuy,

Not sure if your grouping all bullets with a large meplat or Wide Flat Nose into one group when you say they are not good for anything beyond 150yds. and questionable there.

OR ---------??

Maybe with the 45acp, which I'd agree in a rifle seems a bit like much to do about nothing, and which in truth I know almost nothing about.

However, the large meplat/WFN bullets in my 45/70 are good to go well beyond the 150yd. distance you suggest as being a maximum.

All that to say, even if I can't see much sense or reason for the 45acp cartridge in a rifle, for the distance, velocity and game spoken of by the original poster he is good to go.

To say he is not, then the proven results at like distances with 45caliber handguns providing similar velocities with similar weight bullets must all be discounted.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[xdmalder]

I'm shooting 45 Super loads with it. If I really wanted I can go into 460 Rowland territory. But I don't want to because there is no data for it and I really don't know what kind of pressures I am running. With this bullet running at 1250 fps and weighing 272 grains with WW I can get MPBR of 125 yards zeroed at 100 yards with +/- of 3". I would not go past that 100%. Mis judging the distance would be way to easy to not get a proper impact. If I do go into 460 Rowland territory, I'm pretty sure I get past the realm of published 45 Win Mag ballistics.

As far as elk go I have a Marlin XLR 45-70 for that. I wanted a companion gun to go with my 45 Auto XDM. And yes my XDM has been worked on in order to shoot 460 Rowland level type loads. The other fun thing about this gun in this caliber is I can fit 12 rounds in the tube and one in the chamber. I like it for home self defense as well.

[xdmalder]

I forgot to mention that Adam at Ranger Point Precision accurized my rifle and I'm getting easy 1" groups at 50 yards. So for a 100 yard gun it's more than accurate enough.

[country gent]

I dont see anything glaring here, if he is getting true velocites he claims ( not estmats from manuals or just thinking thats what it is) actually measured with a chronograph. A given bullet at a given wieght wieght and or size, at ameasured velocity case its launched from dosnt really matter alot. I would question pressures from a 45 acp load pushing 260-280 grn bullets 1300 fps though. Sandard hardball was 230 grn bullet around 850 fps. I would opt for the flat point as at longer ranges as velocity drops expansion may become iffy and to much may be detremental to penetration. No matter how fast or slow shape or size of bullet it has to reach the vitals with enough energy to disrupte the function of them completely. I would go with the wide flat point load for optimum accuracy at a decent velocity and let that set the range. WHile I have seen a few deer killed with 22 long rifles they were all shot under 50 yds and head shot thru eye or from raking behind ear. Brain shots are very effective when done right. Put to gether an accurate load and learn to shoot it also learn it drop at longer ranges, not just from a ballistics program or book but actual shooting results. Keep in mind while you may not plan on over 125 yds a bad shot or one traveling after hit may require a second shot at 175-200 yds to finish it.

[Larry Gibson]

I'm shooting 45 Super loads with it. If I really wanted I can go into 460 Rowland territory. But I don't want to because there is no data for it and I really don't know what kind of pressures I am running........

I measure 45 ACP loads via an Oehler M43 PBL with a Contender test barrel. I haven't measured the psi of the top end loads above those I use in my M1911s and S&W revolver. The M98 Mauser action of my 45 ACP handles anything I've put in my top loads for it. Case capacity has been the limiting factor with the 45 ACP and such loads. If you are interested we could conflab on the loads used and I could measure the psi?

Larry Gibson

[xdmalder]

I dont see anything glaring here, if he is getting true velocites he claims ( not estmats from manuals or just thinking thats what it is) actually measured with a chronograph. A given bullet at a given wieght wieght and or size, at ameasured velocity case its launched from dosnt really matter alot. I would question pressures from a 45 acp load pushing 260-280 grn bullets 1300 fps though. Sandard hardball was 230 grn bullet around 850 fps. I would opt for the flat point as at longer ranges as velocity drops expansion may become iffy and to much may be detremental to penetration. No matter how fast or slow shape or size of bullet it has to reach the vitals with enough energy to disrupte the function of them completely. I would go with the wide flat point load for optimum accuracy at a decent velocity and let that set the range. WHile I have seen a few deer killed with 22 long rifles they were all shot under 50 yds and head shot thru eye or from raking behind ear. Brain shots are very effective when done right. Put to gether an accurate load and learn to shoot it also learn it drop at longer ranges, not just from a ballistics program or book but actual shooting results. Keep in mind while you may not plan on over 125 yds a bad shot or one traveling after hit may require a second shot at 175-200 yds to finish it.

I am shooting them through a chrony. With most bullets in this gun I am gaining 250 fps over pistol barrels. The other thing I am doing is seating them long as the throat will allow for it. Everything feeds very smooth from this rifle. Since there is nearly zero published load data on 45 super and this bullet I went and purchased Quickload to help with finding suitable loads. Right now I'm using Vihtavuori N105. 10.5 grains behind this bullet with overall length at 1.250". Seating depth is .343". It is predicting around 22000 psi at a velocity of 1217 fps. Chrony is saying 1250. I may move into Power Pistol next. I won't go past 28000 psi. I may be able to get more velocity but was checking here to see if anyone thought I even needed it.

[xdmalder]

I measure 45 ACP loads via an Oehler M43 PBL with a Contender test barrel. I haven't measured the psi of the top end loads above those I use in my M1911s and S&W revolver. The M98 Mauser action of my 45 ACP handles anything I've put in my top loads for it. Case capacity has been the limiting factor with the 45 ACP and such loads. If you are interested we could conflab on the loads used and I could measure the psi?

Larry Gibson

If you would want any more info I would love to share.

[Larry Gibson]

country gent

"I would question pressures from a 45 acp load pushing 260-280 grn bullets 1300 fps though. Standard hardball was 230 grn bullet around 850 fps."

The velocities xdmalder quotes are quite realistic and obtainable. My 45 ACP rifle has a 16 1/4" barrel. Velocities in that barrel gain considerably over the same loads in 5" barreled M1911s. I gain 100 - 200 fps with commercial and US milsurp hardball. A gain of 225 - 270 fps is made with 7.5 gr of Unique under 185 - 200 gr jacketed or cast bullets. Those run 1240 - 1310 fps out of the rifle. All of those loads have been pressure tested by me and run under ANSI/SAAMI +P 45 ACP MAPs.

My standard "heavy" load for my S&W revolver is the GC'd 452490 at 245 gr over 7.3 gr of Unique for 1210 fps out of the rifle. I have 2 other loads in development with that bullet using Bluedot and LilGun that are pushing over 1400 fps out of the rifle. I have not completed the testing of those as of yet.

Larry Gibson

142774

[xdmalder]

country gent

"I would question pressures from a 45 acp load pushing 260-280 grn bullets 1300 fps though. Standard hardball was 230 grn bullet around 850 fps."

The velocities xdmalder quotes are quite realistic and obtainable. My 45 ACP rifle has a 16 1/4" barrel. Velocities in that barrel gain considerably over the same loads in 5" barreled M1911s. I gain 100 - 200 fps with commercial and US milsurp hardball. A gain of 225 - 270 fps is made with 7.5 gr of Unique under 185 - 200 gr jacketed or cast bullets. Those run 1240 - 1310 fps out of the rifle. All of those loads have been pressure tested by me and run under ANSI/SAAMI +P 45 ACP MAPs.

My standard "heavy" load for my S&W revolver is the GC'd 452490 at 245 gr over 7.3 gr of Unique for 1210 fps out of the rifle. I have 2 other loads in development with that bullet using Bluedot and LilGun that are pushing over 1400 fps out of the rifle. I have not completed the testing of those as of yet.

Larry Gibson

142774

Gotta say that is one sweet looking rifle! Is it using 1911 mags?

[Larry Gibson]

It certainly does use M1911 mags

:guntootsmiley:

Larry Gibson

[xdmalder]

Well so far I started with accuracy loads of around 1200 fps and the most accurate load were at around 1300 fps. They were printing around 1" at 50 yards. I like that accuracy for a 100 yard rifle so now I will start to work down tomorrow to a 1100 fps load to see what kind of accuracy develops.

[725]

I just have to say your rifle is very desirable. Would love to have a similar one. For me a solid WFP cast of 60 / 40% WW to pure lead, pushed as fast as accuracy would allow would be my goal. Chances are many variations would work, and even may work well, but a big meplat helps in straight tracking within the target animal and thus helps in shot placement throughout the kill zone.