crescent buttplate

[bigted]

I would like to find out the history of the crescent buttplate and the reason that it were invented in the first place.

anybody have such historic info? I would greatly like to hear the why of such a graceful plate and the sexy look it imparts to a rifle.

[waksupi]

That is a good question. Undoubtedly, the earlier Jaeger style buttplates are more comfortable on a heavy recoiling rifle. I imagine the crescent came about simply by way of the artisans of the long rifle, looking for ways to refine and enhance overall design appeal as the Pennsylvania style rifles evolved. Calibers were trending smaller than the European predecessors of sometimes rather horrendous caliber proportions for small game use, opening the way for other styles.
Another added thought, the Pennsylvania styles were more easily cast than the formed European types, and I believe probably used a bit less metal in the casting, which would have been a consideration at that time.
For those who don't know how to mount a rifle correctly with a crescent plate, they most likely think they are an invention of the devil. Those who are familiar with the proper use, do fine and comfortable work with them.

[bigted]

I totally agree with that ... my adventure began with a little 45 cal CVA that I put together in the 70's and my affair with them has continued since ... my real lesson came tho with a Miroku hiwall that had been reamed to 45-120 and im here to tell that both my first finger and my shoulder learned a big lesson on the how to's of recoil in a lite rifle with that snazzy curved buttplate. mounting it on the upper arm instead of tucked into the shoulder is the first thing to learn with a recoiling rifle of whatever design.

been planning a build with some parts I have and just wanted to find a historic lesson for which buttplate I will use. it will be a half stock rifle in 54 cal or maybe 58 but then I want to play with several things to make it special and unique.

[johnson1942]

never build a gun with one, shotgun type only. they look nice but hurt too much when recoil gets heavier.

[Baja_Traveler]

Heck - the crescent buttplate on my Rossi 92 hurts with mild .357 silhouette loads. I hate the thing, as do a lot of guys on the range - who put a lace on leather pad over it...

It does look nice though, but impractical as all getout...

[waksupi]

See post #3 about proper use of the crescent butt plate.

[bedbugbilly]

A crescent butt plate is not intended to be mounted square with the shoulder like a fowler or shotgun size plate. It is to be mounted down from the shoulder joint. I once had a souther half stock "smooth rifle" in my collection that had about twice the normal drop in the butt stock. The barrel was around 48" in length - tapered from breech to muzzle - 45 cal. percussion. It was extremely comfortable to shoot when mounted correctly and never caused a problem as far as recoil. Many large bore rifles with a crescent butt plate, even though heavy recoil, are comfortable to shoot if you mount correctly when shooting. Problem is . . . too many people use antique firearms but think with modern minds. :-)

[curator]

About the time the crescent butt became stylish, most of the big game east of the Mississippi had been extirpated. Rifles were .32 and .36 with a .40 being "big bore." Not much recoil with those "pea-rifles." The deep crescent butt style followed the settlers out west a few decades before the national paroxysm of the early 1860s. Some folks chose comfort over style and rifle manufacturers began offering "shotgun" butts as an option on big game rifles.

[waksupi]

Even with big game rifles, the concept follows through. When I worked for Serengeti, we specialized in dangerous game rifles. If held to the shoulder like most modern shooters do, your fun was over in a couple shots. Mounting them above the bicep, prolonged shooting was possible in comfort. I ran 20-30 rounds through .458 Lott's in a short amount of time in testing them for function, with no great discomfort.

[Ragnarok]

So what do I own that has 'crescent buttplates' on it?....Well?....I own a TC .50 Hawkin...a old Winchester 1892 sporting rifle...an old Winchester 1903 .22 rifle..an old Remington Model 12C .22 rifle..that's all I can think of that are equipped with crescent buttplates...

Of course none of those rifles are really 'hard kickers'...even the Thompson Center Hawkin really doesn't kick that much. At least with the guns I own the crescent buttplate style of stock is comfortable to shoot.


The style of buttstock/buttplate I was always curious about is the so called 'carbine butt'...which refers to the Winchester style lever-guns I presume?....Anyhow...I always thought it odd that the old US 1861 and 1863 rifle-muskets plus all the trapdoor rifles used the same style of buttplates and yet you never hear this type of buttplate refered to as 'US rifle butts'

[JHeath]

Mounting rifles to the upper arm has a long history of being normal. Crescent buttplates exist because many competent riflemen -- perhaps most -- mounted to the arm, and the crescent prevents a long barrel tipping down when the forward hand supports the barrel closer to the body. Mounting to the arm is not an eccentric habit to accomodate a quirky buttplate designed to look nice. Just the opposite. The crescent buttplate is for aligning the rifle more diagonally across the chest, bringing it closer in line with the head, eyes, and other arm. A crescent plate is not intended for the shoulder pocket, like the hooked schuetzen buttplates in the photo obviously aren't intended for the shoulder pocket.

[JHeath]

Schuetzen buttplates for comparison -- nobody would try to shoulder these.

[bigted]

a bit more concerning the correct mounting of the curved buttplate ...

it always fits better when the arm that the crescent is mounted to is "hung" directly out from the shoulder instead of the most often times seen tuck of the recoil arm counting the pocket of the shoulder as the seat for the buttstock. if you correctly aim your arm and elbo at the right angle of your sighting then your upper arm/bicep will most naturally be the seating area for these snazzy curved crescent style plates. very comfy and this area also "gives" under recoil better then the "pocket" does. it will actually keep from getting black n blue when this outer and upper arm/bicep is the seating portion of the anatomy.

all very fun and educational ... however I fail to find where the practice of installing the crescent on American rifles originated at and the reason why. many thoughts and theory's but neither on the great web nor any place I have asked this question at has gotten me any where closer to a historic answer ... very interesting I say. I don't think that American rifles were the first to have begun the crescent plate but I can not find the country of origin either. maybe it is simply the practice of an individual that migrated into America and brought either the practice with him or the rifle and it was seen and copied from the original as we have gotten most of our snazzy cool American artifacts from in the first place.

I at first thought that the crescent was a battle curve so when the shot was taken ... the rifle was end-o-ed and used as a club in a tight fix and the curves points would then be very deadly for a forehead or even a backbone or rib hit/stroke. however I can not find any historical statements that would support this notion.

pretty interesting I think and it sure makes for a dandy post/question. it is very interesting that the American military rifles never had these deep crescents on them and as a matter of fact I do not know if I have ever seen in person nor pictures a military style rifle from anywhere that used this crescent style.

back to the first reason I wanted to finally ask this question is the rifle I am going to assemble for myself. I would like the crescent for cosmetic looks but in practice I like the Renegade style plate for actual use and practicality.

thanks for all the input and I hope that maybe we have an educational post as well to ensure that more use that snazzy curved devil to shoot more comfortably.

keep em coming ... this is very fun and maybe eventually someone will have a track to follow that is a historical trail to find the answer or at least the hint of an answer.

[heelerau]

Bigted, down under I too have wondered why the crescent but plate. It seems almost a retrograde step, after having a late 18th century long rifle with a swamped barrel, which handles so well, mounts easily compared to my other rifles of later 19th century with crescent but plates and straight barrels. I have wondered whether it may have been something to do with the later style of rifle being more muzzle heavy?

cheers

Heelerau

[crossxsticks]

never build a gun with one, shotgun type only. they look nice but hurt too much when recoil gets heavier.

well said, they look purty I like there looks and i own a couple but there not my choice to shoot .

[johnson1942]

the true extreem cresent butt plate was ment for 45 cal roundballs and under. you would hook the butt plat where the bicep meets the shoulder, then shoot the rifles off hand. their is a painted picture of the captain of a mule cargo train from the old days up on the upper missouri breaks up around what is now wiliston n.dak. he is out in front leading the mule train. he has a long rifle with a cresent butt plate resting accross his saddle. good to hook into the bicep shoulder area and shoot from the saddle. got him meat and protected him. love that picture, think i will order a print of it. go to bare walls .com and look at their wester art.

[Southron]

Crescent Buttplates are dainty, "pretty" things. They are wonderful for low recoiling rifles...however, for heavy recoiling rifles I like the military style buttplate which is equally adept distributing recoil and bashing in barn doors.

[bigted]

I am going to retract a statement I made concerning the shouldering/bicep style shooting that these curved wonders are suppose to be shot like.

I recently got a "Browning Mountain Rifle" to play with and had to get another main spring and wedges and such to make it back into a shootable rifle again ... 50 cal.

well this baby has a deep curve and a very pointy sharp top curve on it and being a large man I cannot find the sweet spot for positioning it on my shoulder/bicep area without receiving a sharp point for my efforts. this is one that I have not so far been able to get comfy with and this erks me as the length of pull is just rite for this long armed galloot.

she shoots well and I very much like the single set trigger on it but ... my geeds ... that point is gonna have to be dealt with post haste. maybe I will pull it and see how much meat is there so maybe I can grind that offending point off the top and make it a bit more user friendly. may have to install a leather lace up pad to soften it up a bit ... HMMM ... have to think on it for a spell.

[idahoron]

I solved my trouble with the *** crescent plate on my Hawken.

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Muzzleloaders/HawkenwithRecoilpad3.jpg

[OverMax]

I often thought the original intent of crescent style butt plates were designed for smaller caliber B/P weaponry allowing for quicker handling in the heat of the moment. Why the deliberate modification on larger bore calibers? Simple. A purchaser back in the day I suspect who wanted a Big Bore caliber he also wanted the same quick handling of the crescent feature seen on smaller bores rifles. Of course Gun-Smiths would accommodate such requests. But,~ no doubt instructed his customer to shoot light powder charges first and foremost. Unlike today's shooters. "The more powder. The better!!" and in doing the shooter suffers for his behaviour> battering recoil.
If I were advising someone interested in traditional B/P weaponry. Who was contemplating a rifle purchase in 50-54-58 cal. Shotgun stock verses that punishing crescent is preferred.

[bigted]

I am wholeheartedly in agreement.

[DR Owl Creek]

I have five different custom made traditional Hawken rifles with crescent butt plates. One is a .58 caliber round ball gun. One is a fast twist .40 caliber that would be roughly equivalent to a .40-65 BPCR. One is a fast twist .45 caliber that would be roughly equivalent to a .45-70 BPCR. They're all quite comfortable to shoot with full power loads if you shoot them properly, with the butt plate on your upper arm.

If you don't use any firearm properly, it won't be comfortable to shoot.

Dave

[fouronesix]

Incorrectly shoot any firearm with stout recoil, short barrel and of sporter weight and you will get whacked. I always thought the crescent butt was more of an artistic style carried over from the past than of practical function. Old, target guns designed for various off hand competitions have exaggerated crescent butts. But they were fairly heavy and honestly not of a type with heavy recoil anyway.

Most Hawken type rifles are heavy and designed to shoot PRB. No matter the charge or caliber, I've never noticed much in severe felt recoil- so the classic crescent butt is not of much consequence. On the other hand, load a T/C Renegade up with a conical and stout load and even with its shotgun type butt it will kick the snot out of you off the bench- whether you hold the butt to the shoulder or somewhere down the arm. Huge muzzle rise and a tendancy to drive the comb and your trigger hand into you cheek and nose. All having nothing to do with where on the shoulder or arm you place the butt.

I may be built differently from those in the "crescent on the arm camp" but I don't think so. If that butt is placed very far at all out away from the normal shoulder placement then you have to lean or cant your head and start looking at the sights side ways. I'm also skeptical about those proposing/recommending placing that butt out away from the normal shoulder pocket and shooting truly heaving recoiling rifles- no matter the butt style. It of course all sounds sage and cool in print to recommend shooting heavy recoiling rifles with the butt out away from the normal shoulder placement… but I certainly don't recommend it. But, the only way to find out for yourself is to take a normal 9-10 pound sporter with 60-70 ft lbs or more of recoil and shoot it. Give it a go, as was recommended in an earlier post, with the butt (modern, not crescent) out away from the normal shoulder pocket then report back on how that works out. :)

[DR Owl Creek]

Incorrectly shoot any firearm with stout recoil, short barrel and of sporter weight and you will get whacked.
...

Most Hawken type rifles are heavy and designed to shoot PRB. No matter the charge or caliber, I've never noticed much in severe felt recoil- so the classic crescent butt is not of much consequence. On the other hand, load a T/C Renegade up with a conical and stout load and even with its shotgun type butt it will kick the snot out of you off the bench- whether you hold the butt to the shoulder or somewhere down the arm.
...




The Hawkens I mentioned in my previous post aren't exactly "pea shooters". My .58 caliber round ball gun has an incised carved curly maple stock, a Green Mountain 36" octagonal barrel with 1:70" twist, a lock designed by Ron Long and assembled by Davis' Locks, a Davis' Hawken trigger, and a poured pewter nose cap. My normal load is a .570" round ball (actual weight about 281 grains), with a .015" patch, over 100 grains of FFg black powder.

My .40 caliber fast twist Hawken, has a very curly maple stock, an Ed Rayl 32" octagonal barrel made of 4150 ordnance grade steel with a 1:14" twist, a lock designed by Ron Long and assembled by Davis' Locks, a Hawken trigger by Davis, and a poured pewter nose cap. My normal load is a Lyman #410655 .410" 400 grain nominal weight (actual weight about 428 grains) .40 caliber Sharps bullet, over 65 grains of FFg black powder.

My .45 caliber fast twist Hawken has a very curly maple stock, a Howard Kelly 32" octagonal barrel with 1:22" twist, a Griffith lock, a L&R Hawken trigger, and a poured pewter nose cap. My normal load is a Lyman #457125 .458" 500 grain nominal weight (actual weight about 525 grains) bullet, over 65 grains of FFg black powder. The recoil on this one is about the same my 1886 Winchester 45-70 lever action, which also has a crescent steel butt plate, when shooting 405 grain 45-70 loads.

Why anyone would want to have a nice traditional style firearm, and then not learn how to shoot it properly is way beyond me. Putting a rubber butt pad on one of these rifles would be an abomination to me too. If you want a rubber butt pad on a muzzle loader, I'd suggest just buying one of those plastic stocked in-lines from Waly World instead. IMHO.

Dave

[Geezer in NH]

I solved my trouble with the *** crescent plate on my Hawken. UCK ruined that one IMHO Past makes a recoil pad you can wear without messing the gun up. Sorry I am traditional and don't like inline either but if it works for you it is better than a suppository gun. :kidding:

[idahoron]

Some say messed up, I say useful. A crescent but pad is worthless as a pile of dog **** to me. But if you like them good for you.

[crossxsticks]

UCK ruined that one IMHO Past makes a recoil pad you can wear without messing the gun up. Sorry I am traditional and don't like inline either but if it works for you it is better than a suppository gun. :kidding:

i dont see folks pulling out there thompson center Hawkins at a reg. shoot and braggin on there traditional rifle . anything your can do to make a tc hawkins or renegade a better rifle get-r-done i like the recoil pad idea i may put one on my renegade

[Ken in Iowa]

Great subject for this thread. I hope people stop crapping in it....:-|

A few thoughts-

I have been around muzzle loaders since the 60s. Most of the rifles then were traditionally styled. In our local NMLRA type matches, 40-45 caliber rifles were very popular. Sure, there were a number of 58 caliber muskets, but the serious target rifles were 40-45. The 50 and 54 calibers were just not popular yet.

Most events were offhand. Cross stick and bench rest matches were not as numerous. Prone was unheard of. One could conjecture that most hunting in the old days was taken in the standing position or with an improvised rest with an upright posture. The crescent buttplate would help.

The old Kentucky or Pennsylvania style rifles had long barrels. 40" or longer was the norm. 18th and 19th century people were shorter and lighter than today. To shoulder that front heavy rifle with shorter arms, that crescent buttplate would be a great help.

The western "Hawkin" style mountain rifles saw the move towards larger calibers and shorter barrels. The crescent plate was retained, but the need for it was lessening.

[Ken in Iowa]

In the early 70s, I built a Hawken rifle proportioned to my stature - long and tall. It has a 36" Bill Large 54 caliber round ball barrel and a long length of pull. Long Crescent buttplate of course. It fits me like a glove.

I discovered to get the accuracy out of that barrel, I needed 100 grains of powder. On the plus side, it was quite a good shooter at 200 yards. It would be fun to try it at 250-300, but I haven't yet.

The rifle works great offhand and OK on cross sticks. Bench rest is a little uncomfortable as the top of the plate digs in a bit. Had the drop at the heel been a bit higher it wouldn't be an issue. Then again, it's perfect when standing.

Since mine and Dr. Owl Creek's 58 are similar to what you want to build, I think pics are in order bigted. :)

[crossxsticks]

talk about pic's how about the one on the cover of July Muzzle Blast and the first 10 pages, now there is some butt plates with a rifle attach to it oh yeah ,

[bigted]

I like the way you guys think ... soon as I get my picture taking device working ... I will add some photo's of my rifles and the stock I have to begin another.

I would certainly enjoy any photo's anybody has of their rifles and the buttplates. I enjoy seeing others rifles and take to gleaning useful info from them as well. history is on the edge of my compass but shootability is everything to me. I would and will want to be as close to history as I can and still be able to enjoy not only the look of the rifle but the shootability.

bring on the pictures I say. :bigsmyl2: