The old west and loading 5 vs 6 rounds.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Wasn't sure where to post this, so feel free to move it.

When it comes to shooting/carrying older style single action revolvers we all know or should know to load only 5 rounds and ease the hammer down onto an empty chamber. My question, did people in the old west really carry their 6-shooters loaded with 5? I only ask because I have come across several references, and Internet rumors that claim cowboys loaded 6 rounds and eased the hammer down between the chambers. Obviously 5 rounds is safer but this would seem like a safe enough solution to carry an extra round that might save your life.

I also have a few Cap&Ball revolvers that have a "pin" between two of the nipples that allows for the hammer to be eased down between two nipples allowing for the safe loading of all six chambers. Is this "pin" something only found on modern reproductions or is this an original safety?

[scattershot]

I have heard all my life that they did, but then they didn't have a lawyer behind every bush, either, so maybe they didn't. On the SAA Colt, there' s a safety notch, too, so I'm sure most carried six with the hammer in the notch, but I really can't say for sure.


as far as the pins go, I believe they were a feature on original Colts. Remingtons had a deep notch between the nipples that seems more secure to me.

[opos]

old lore has it the open cylinder was for a $20 bill for gambling money...who knows?

[salvadore]

There was a post on a different forum (I think) who claimed carrying six was the norm with the firing pin resting between cartridge rims. He also said they sometimes had to file the width of the pin to allow it to fit, and that was how he carried all his SAAs. He sounded serious.

[ofitg]

Wyatt Earp loaded six..... at least, up until this incident -

The Wichita (Kansas) Beacon newspaper reported in its January 12, 1876 edition, "Last Sunday night, while policeman Earp was sitting with two or three others in the back room of the Custom House Saloon, his revolver slipped from his holster, and falling to the floor, the hammer which was resting on the cap, is supposed to have struck the chair, causing a discharge of one of the (chambers). The ball passed through his coat, struck the north wall then glanced off and passed out through the ceiling. It was a narrow escape and the occurrence got up a lively stampede from the room. One of the demoralized was under the impression that someone had fired through the window from the outside."

[waksupi]

I would bet most carried with 6. They didn't have much knowledge of guns or safety, in general. There were more people killed on wagon trains by accidental discharges, than Indian attacks.

[EDK]

old lore has it the open cylinder was for a $20 bill for gambling money...who knows?

IIRC, John Taffin of AMERICAN HANDGUNNER and GUNS, did an article about this. He found that firing a round or two scorched the $ bill pretty badly in a cartridge revolver. I'd think it would be worse in a can 'n ball revolver.

[Blackwater]

The old Colts, etc. didn't have transfer bars that make carrying 6 safe, so they probably either carried 5, let the hammer down between cylinders when carrying 6 (a layover from Civil War cap n' ball techniques), or they just took a chance. I have an OM Ruger Super Blackhawk that doesn't have the transfer bar, and I usually load 5 for hunting. It'd be an awfully dumb deer that'd stick around long enough for me to get off 5, much less 6 shots. At a range, I'll load 6 and let the hammer down between chambers, since it won't be long at all before I fire them. When carrying without intent to shoot immediately, I'll load 5 for the simple reason that things CAN happen where letting the hammer down between cylinders MAY result in the cylinder/hammer moving and the firing pin resting on the hammer without my realizing it. Besides, even a sasquatch shouldn't be able to take 5 fully loaded .44's!

In the end, I suspect them ol' cowboys did pretty much like we do today - all sorts of ways for all sorts of reasons. They WERE an opinionated lot, ya' know?

[ddixie884]

Keith said in "SIXGUNS" the knowledgeable folks only loaded five. Horse transit was the norm and while securing the cinch the stirrup was hung on the saddle horn . When it slipped off, if it hit the hammer, it would break the safety notch out and cause an AD. Crippled men had trouble keeping employment.

[30calflash]

Was thinking maybe 5 on horseback and 6 while on foot.


"old lore has it the open cylinder was for a $20 bill for gambling money...who knows?"

Ruger ads stated it was burial money. They thought a little ahead back then.

[country gent]

I have read that also about stir-ups and other tack hitting the hammer of revolvers and breaking the saftey notch firing the revolver. I would bet alot onkly loaded 5 rounds unless circumstances dictated other wise. Falls, being thrown from horses, things falling were all quite common in the western way of life. While maybe not well versed in firearms saftey they also knew and understood a small injury could turn fatal quickly, that it was easier to not have them than try and care for them

[rancher1913]

when my grandfather took us kids on snake hunts, he would only let us carry 5 rounds with hammer on an empty, must have stuck cause that's the only way I'll carry today. at the range I'll load 6 but we shot it asap and never load until ready to use.

[JSnover]

"Load six if yer insides tells ya to!" -- John Wayne as JB Books in "The Shootist"

[Harry O]

I have an 1883 S&W double-action revolver that has indentations on the back of the cylinder between each chamber. The firing pin fits there perfectly, with and without cartridges in the chambers. Firing it single-action or double-action from that position, it indexes perfectly for firing. It was obviously intended to be used for that.

[wv109323]

I saw an old original SAA colt that the butt was beat all to pieces. My guess was that the butt of the handle was used for a hammer head to drive fence staples. I would not want to do that when there was 6 rounds in the cylinder.

[lightload]

I knew one man who was killed when his old model Ruger loaded with six fired accidentally, and I know another man whose holstered Colt .45 loaded with six fired when he was going through a barbed wire fence. The hammer caught on the wire above him, the safety notch broke, and the gun fired with the bullet going through his leg.

[Thumbcocker]

This begs the question why did the military adopt a gun that was unsafe when loaded to full capacity. Military guns were tested a lot then and safety, one would assume, would be a paramount concern. With Uncle Sam writing the check you know that Colt would have put in any safety feature that the contract called for. Slots between the caps was a proven and viable technology from the civil war era. From what I have read training for grunts varied a lot and a "soldier proof" weapon would seem to be a priority.

Then as now military acceptance was great for civilian sales so why no way to safely carry 6?

[bedbugbilly]

In the end, there is a lot of "supposition" going on in regards to this. "I read one time", "I heard", etc. While I'm sure that some did and some didn't carry 6, unless there is actual "first person" and "factual" primary sources - such as the quoted newspaper article - there is no way of knowing. Yes . . there are documentations of "accidental shootings" but if it is felt that the people in those days were not "savy" to "gun safety" . . . I think that's a pretty inaccurate statement to make without some primary resources to back it up. One has to remember that the number of individuals carrying, using and having guns was much higher than it it today. Guns, hand guns and long guns were carried as "tools" - for protection and for providing meat for the table and doing away with varmints, whether it be a dog getting in your sheep, wolves or coyotes after calves, or rabbits eating your vegetables in the garden. Not everyone was a "gun slinger" and I have read as well, first person accounts where "cowboys" - actual "cowboys" working herds, often placed their handguns in their saddlebags as they got in the way of doing their work. Not everyone was in "immediate danger of hostile attack".

And, one also has to remember that generations ago, there were "fools" just as we have now who are "reckless" with firearms. If you go to a range, you'll eventually see that first hand. As with any study in history, as soon as you find a primary resource in regards to answering a questions such as this . . . you'll run across another one that will say otherwise.

One also has to consider the design of the hand gun. As already stated, Remington and Colt C & B had a "safe" way of maintaining the hammer between the chambers and off the cap. So did a number of cartridge revolvers. As far as the SAA and the Army goes - you also have to remember that the SAA was carried in either a full or a half flap holster which covered the hammer/action - not so with the open top holsters.

In the end . . . if we could go back and talk with those who carried in the 1800s and early 1900s, we'd probably get a wide variety of answers. Since that's impossible, all we can do is rely on documented first person accounts and primary resources . . . and even those will only reflect "how that individual did it".

[bob208]

to carry the military thing a little farther. the army issued ammo for the colt in 6 round packs. most times 3 packs were issued. I don't think the army intended to waste one round each pack.

[GoodOlBoy]

also safety has never been the paramount issue in a military weapon, functionality above all else was always paramount until the modern age.

Back to the revolver. I think part of the issue here is also that too many people want to deal in absolutes. There is no reason to believe that "everybody" did anything the same way, much less they way they carried a gun. Nor is there a reason to believe that a gun was always carried the same way. If you were expecting a fight, which whomever, you would be a fool to carry five instead of six. If you were going to see a girl on Sunday, you would probably only carry five (unless her husband might be home)

Still we will probably never know all the ins outs and reasons.

My 2 cents

GoodOlBoy

[StrawHat]

In my revolvers, both Italian copies, the is no room for the firing pin to fit between the case rims with 6 loaded. Not sure how they could have done that, unless they were loading a smaller cartridge. 45 long Colt, 44 WCF (and 38WCF) do not leave enough room. I do not have a photo but maybe someone else can post one.

Also not sure why ammunition packs would have a 6. Rifle cartridges were issued 10 or 20 to a pack for a single shot rifle.

Kevin

[Petrol & Powder]

Obviously I wasn't there.....and absolutes are always unlikely but in general terms I'd be willing to assume there were two conventions.

1. With a cap & ball revolver that has safety notches between the caps, it would be advantageous to load all six chambers. That type of gun is slow to reload and that extra shot would be important. The hammer resting in the safety notch would be fairly safe by the standards of the day.

2. With a cartridge revolver and it's greater speed of reloading coupled with the lack of a safety notch (in most examples), loading five rounds and keeping the hammer on an empty chamber would give the user a balance between safety and usefulness. Whether or not that was a common practice; I can only guess.

I do think it's worth mentioning that cap & ball revolvers would have remained in general use LONG after the introduction of cartridge guns. Guns were expenses tools, large portions of the western population lived in very remote areas and people living in rural areas would have a greater need for a long gun and therefore a working cap & ball revolver would be a lower priority to upgrade to a cartridge model compared to a long gun. There is also the cost of cartridges. Loose powder, bulk lead and percussion caps were not only less expensive but also universally adaptable to a variety of firearms. In Keith's book on shotguns he mentions bulk black powder and shot being sold in hardware stores. That would have been in the early 1900's. The point being that there was a considerable overlap between the use of single action cartridge revolvers and cap & ball revolvers, including a lot of cartridge conversion revolvers as well. I think loading five vs. six would be highly dependent on both the type of the gun the user possessed and the knowledge the user possessed.

[bob208]

both of my Dakotas one a .44-40 the other a .45 colt I carry with the firing pin between the rims. all my ruger three screw the same thing.

[Dan Cash]

old lore has it the open cylinder was for a $20 bill for gambling money...who knows?

cylinder......you mean Chamber.

[TXGunNut]

"Load six if yer insides tells ya to!" -- John Wayne as JB Books in "The Shootist"


I suspect that is probably historically accurate. I have a feeling most folks who carried a six-shooter back then knew the risks and acted accordingly.

[StrawHat]

both of my Dakotas one a .44-40 the other a .45 colt I carry with the firing pin between the rims. all my ruger three screw the same thing.

bob208,

Any chance we could see a photo of the cylinder with the chambers loaded.

Kevin

[Ballistics in Scotland]

old lore has it the open cylinder was for a $20 bill for gambling money...who knows?

I've heard that the bill was for burial money, and only $1. $20 would surely be many times what it would take for the basic Boot Hill job. If the shooting was arranged in the way I suspect most old western ones were, the bill would remain uncharred.

It is debatable whether many of the famous gunfighters were anything like as good shots as sometimes is claimed. Being a cool hand, able to anticipate what isn't happening yet, and being untroubled about the other fellow's decease, was probably more important. But if you gave someone like Wild Bill a five-shot cap and ball Adams, an adversary with a modern double-stack auto would be unwise in the extreme to feel at an advantage. There is a law of diminishing return on pistol cartridges.

The more people have guns, the higher the proportion are likely to be inexpert in the practicalities. I am sure both six and five shot loadings were common. I think the reason for the Army to order the Colt was cheapness relative to the Smith and Wesson But they at least carried it in a flapped holster, and in a place slightly less vulnerable to stirrup-irons. I don't know how the Army taught men to load, but as to the packaging, a man found dead with one empty chamber and an empty five-round ammunition package is liable to unsettle the others.

The half-cock notch of the Colt is extremely vulnerable, to fanning and other abuse. I am surprised we don't hear more of a device I know was occasionally used, a hammer-width strap attached to the top front of the holster, with a hole for the firing-pin. When that was keeping the uncocked hammer off the primer it couldn't be fired by a blow, and it also kept the revolver from falling out of a low-cut holster.

It's no good, I can't prevent myself from posting a picture of my favourite 1873, the French ordnance revolver, in which all the parts can be exposed without separate tools, they still don't fall out until removed one by one, and the half-cock notch isn't undercut and all the trigger can do is lift the hammer notch off it.

142642

[bob208]

pictures are a little out of my league. but both are emf imported they do not have rebated chambers. both are made by a.s.m. the .44 is a early new model Dakota I used in 89. the .45 is a new model bought new In 96. the .45 parts are suppose to interchange with third model colts.


they both had a manual safety of sorts. the cylinder pin had two groves. the first one was for firing. if you slid the pin in to the second drove the pin stuck out the back and vlocked the hammer.

[Larry Gibson]

The Army loaded 6 rounds into the SAA and the Schofield. The Army used, as mentioned full or half flap holsters to protect and prevent anything from striking the revolver when holstered. The holstered revolvers were also carried butt forward which added additional protection (not the only reason).

From the manual "Description And Rules for the Management Of The Springfield Rifle, Carbine And Army Revolvers, 1874.........COLT'S REVOLVER, CALBRE .45.........";

"Besides the full-cock and half-cock notches, there is also a safety-notch, which is the first one felt in cocking."

"OPERATION.-To Load.-Hold the Pistol in the left hand, muzzle downward; half-cock it with the right hand and open the gate. Insert the cartridges with the right hand, close the gate and bring the hammer to the safety-notch; keep it there until the Pistol is to be fired."

Nothing is mentioned about loading less than the 6 chambers.

Larry Gibson

[Ballistics in Scotland]

pictures are a little out of my league. but both are emf imported they do not have rebated chambers. both are made by a.s.m. the .44 is a early new model Dakota I used in 89. the .45 is a new model bought new In 96. the .45 parts are suppose to interchange with third model colts.


they both had a manual safety of sorts. the cylinder pin had two groves. the first one was for firing. if you slid the pin in to the second drove the pin stuck out the back and vlocked the hammer.

Yes, that would be very effective in making the SAA safe, but not so effective in making it shootable. I would hate to have to do that in a tight moment. I don't know if there was a double groove in early production, when the axis pin was screw-locked. Screwdrivers got a lot of use around the early Colts.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

pictures are a little out of my league. but both are emf imported they do not have rebated chambers. both are made by a.s.m. the .44 is a early new model Dakota I used in 89. the .45 is a new model bought new In 96. the .45 parts are suppose to interchange with third model colts.


they both had a manual safety of sorts. the cylinder pin had two groves. the first one was for firing. if you slid the pin in to the second drove the pin stuck out the back and vlocked the hammer.

I think I have heard that referred to as a "Swiss" safety. The Virginian Dragoons repos had those sorts of safeties also.

[Bulldogger]

I saw an old original SAA colt that the butt was beat all to pieces. My guess was that the butt of the handle was used for a hammer head to drive fence staples. I would not want to do that when there was 6 rounds in the cylinder.

Or you can take the handles off using your pocket knife blade as a screwdriver and then use the frame as a wrench to remove the bolts off a large mining vault door hinge when locked in the inside by the bad guys. Or so said the Lone Range series...

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, and cast his silver bullets on a campfire...

[bbailey7821]

Just my 2 cents, but I always carry my hammer down on an empty hole. A 44 mag through the thigh is probably not going to end well.

[DougGuy]

"Load six if yer insides tells ya to!" -- John Wayne as JB Books in "The Shootist"

You will also see him load the 6th round in each of his Great Western revolvers shortly before departing to the Metropol saloon...

[2ndAmendmentNut]

"Load six if yer insides tells ya to!" -- John Wayne as JB Books in "The Shootist"

Been a few years since I have seen "True Grit" but if I recall correctly there is also a seen talking about an empty chamber keeping him from blowing his foot off.

[RogerDat]

People tend to have habits, after all isn't that what target practice is? Developing good habits for hitting the center ring. My point is that some folks might well have gotten settled into a 5 shot or 6 shot habit when using a firearm where that habit was warranted or the norm. Later firearm with different safety features might not change the habit. For good or bad. If bad the habit might become a cautionary story for others. Know of someone that was hurt by having 6 in a firearm just like yours you might go with 5, and continue that habit irrespective of changing firearm later.

Recall my uncle telling me about bird hunters that grew up using black powder that would drop under the smoke for the second shot, even after smokeless powder they continued to drop under the non-existent smoke for the second shot. They had a habit that was accurate and worked so they continued despite a change in technology. Could also have been they owned both types and just shot the way that black powder required in both.

[MT Gianni]

All I have read says that most extra cylinders, the preferred method of reloading were carried with 6 charged holes. I suspect that many more working cowboys had cap and ball guns than cartridge guns until the 1880's. Ranchers I know today are the worst about going out to buy the latest and greatest, if it works stick with it is most of their mottos.

[Thumbcocker]

Thanks Larry for posting the army manual quotes.

As to armed cowboys; there is an article in an old GUNS magazine that stated that many of the bigger ranches (Charlie Goodnight was mentioned) did not allow cowboys to carry pistols on the property. I guess this would have been the full time hands on a ranch and not the guys working the trail drives.

I have wondered how many cowboys could afford a pistol or ammo since once you were paid off at the end of the drive and relieved of a good portion of your wages in town, you were unemployed and a long way from home. Sorry for the thread drift.

[Outpost75]

to carry the military thing a little farther. the army issued ammo for the colt in 6 round packs. most times 3 packs were issued. I don't think the army intended to waste one round each pack.

The military also carried revolvers in a full flap holster which protected the hammer, as well as keeping rain, snow and trail dust out, and protecting the gun in case of a tumble.

[Boogieman]

A friend of mine had a 45 Colt clone made by Hammerli . It had the best safety I've ever seen. The top of the hammer had a square pin that moved up & down. When it was down it hit the frame & kept the firing pin from touching the primer. A knurled wheel at the very top of the hammer controlled it. You rolled it up with your thumb as you cocked the hammer. I'd like to find a hammer like that for my Colt SAA

[Bigslug]

Remember that 50% of the people you will ever meet are below average intelligence. DA/SA triggers, decockers, magazine disconnnects, loaded chamber indicators, and - dare I say it - the Ruger SA revolver transfer bar? All designed because of those folks.

We've got 140 years of experience telling us that the proper way to carry a Peacemaker is with the hammer down on an empty chamber, and we've also got the internet to spread that information. At the time of the famed incidents of Tombstone, the gun wasn't ten years old, and brass cartridges were one of those moon landing kind of things that had people pridefully saying "look at how modern and sophisticated we are". Put another way, cartridge guns may have been something too new for your daddy and granddaddy to teach you. Word of mouth was what they had, it didn't travel all that efficiently, and I don't think people were any better at reading the instructions back then than they are now.

And then there's the operator's innate mechanical aptitude and understanding. My uncle is a very talented mechanic who jokes about an engine that didn't work because the owner applied the "Briggs and Stratton Method". The instructions say "fill the crankcase with oil", so the owner filled the crankcase with oil. . .literally. . .to the top of the fill port. If you tell people like this to take an 1873 Colt and load one, skip one, load four, cock, and ease down, you'll get a blank stare. Even after you tell them that, they'll probably load six. To complicate the matter, you had the older cap and ball guns that had the in-between location on the cylinder for the hammer. Enter The Idiot: "Well hell! The last one I carried took six. . ."

I would therefore have to guess that you'd have seen a lot loaded with six, and a lot of more experienced folks living very nervously

[MT Gianni]

I have wondered how many cowboys could afford a pistol or ammo since once you were paid off at the end of the drive and relieved of a good portion of your wages in town, you were unemployed and a long way from home. Sorry for the thread drift.
Since you were from the area the drive started in, you generally rode back together with the chuckwagon. The other option is to try to winter somewhere else if you have no family to return to. Elmer Keith who knew several of the old timers had a lot to say about the reasons to ride with a heavy pistol, as shooting a runaway horse might be the only way to save your life.

[Bent Ramrod]

The Park Ranger giving the talk on the fight at the Little Bighorn mentioned that when President Grant sent Terry, Crook, Custer et al to round up the "hostiles" and put them on reservations, all the cavalry revolvers were loaded with six rounds. Along the way, a couple of the rank & file accidentally shot themselves in the leg, so by the time they were out on station, the practice was to load five. He didn't say whether this practice just sprang up spontaneously or was the ad-hoc policy of the field commanders. (I would guess the latter, from the limited experience I have of policy changes under new commanders.)

He said the standard issue of ammunition on the march was 24 rounds for the revolver, which would be four full cylinders under the official doctrine. The guys with the carbines got 120 rounds of .45-55.

He seemed very knowledgable about the background. He'd written at least one book about the Indian Wars and was thinking of writing another.

[robertbank]

This thread begs the question is it safe to load six using the safety notch that keeps the firing pin back from the cartridges on Uberti SAA revolvers?

I have two of them and they both have the safety catch. My Beretta Stampede and Ruger both have transfer bars which absolutely removes the risk.

With the absence of the internet, radio and other widespread means of communication back in the day I would be surprised if there was any standard way of carrying the SAA revolvers. The cylinder had six holes and I suspect most would fill them.

Take Care

Bob

[Ballistics in Scotland]

That they were expected to do a lot less shooting with revolver than carbine, as those ammunition allowances suggest, isn't surprising. I suspect that the difference in practice shots was a lot greater. Still, whatever they did when they only expected to carry the thing around, I am pretty sure they would load six at a time when they were pointing it at Indians. I don't know how much consideration that got from the Army (they appointed Custer after all), but that was certainly when it mattered most.

One thing that has always struck me about the real-life Wild West is how few people were killed by cowboys. It seems to have been fewer than by Indians, even. Maybe a lot of rustlers got buried informally, but in the cowtowns, although they seem to have done plenty of fighting and noise-making, it was the gamblers and saloon- and brothel-keepers (Do I repeat myself?) that shot people.

Cowboys also earned very little. I would guess that the Colt was by far the most numerous heavy-caliber revolver in their hands, because it was cheap. Charles Dickens wrote a very enthusiastic article about Colonel Colt's London factory in his magazine "Household Words", which you can find on page 352 (not 852 as the contents page says) of this URL:

http://archive.org/stream/householdword09dicklond/householdword09dicklond_djvu.txt

He says the entire pistol was made in one factory (which was very unusual in Birmingham or Liege), and was planned so that most of the work could be done by semi-skilled girls. It was very much the right system for production in a nation with an open frontier, free land, gold-rushes etc., but his London venture was soon overtaken by companies in which craftsmen were prepared to spend their working lives. Besides, only the Navy Colt was made in the UK, and there were one or two well publicized cases of Imperial subjects having time for some lethal payback before expiring of all six in a vital area.

The cost of ammunition in 19th century America was high, relative to the cost of the gun, and companies aren't alone in preferring capital expenditure to expenditure on consumables. My guess is that most cowboys seldom fired their pistols.

[DougGuy]

This thread begs the question is it safe to load six using the safety notch that keeps the firing pin back from the cartridges on Uberti SAA revolvers?

I have two of them and they both have the safety catch.

Bob

Uberti claims it is safe to carry with 6 loaded chambers. I have one as well and pulling back the hammer to engage the safety notch not only blocks the hammer/firing pin, but also captivates the trigger so that it cannot be pulled which might release the safety notch.

[robertbank]

Thanks Doug for the reply. I was pretty sure that was the case. If Uberti indicates it is safe to do so then it is safe to do so. Their statement is good enough for me. They are excellent guns and their 1873 rifle is just pure art. If I had a need I would have one in an instant. Other project though keep getting in the way.

Take Care

Bob

[Thumbcocker]

I'm not sure a Colt would be especially cheap. Colt charged the govt. around $20 for a cap and ball during the civil war later reduced when competition from Remington forced them to. Cowboying was hard dirty dangerous work and not especially well paying. If a new Colt was as little as $15 or so that would have been a good part of a months wages. Hence my not being certain about how many working cowboys could afford one especially cowboys not working for a cattle company full time. I would think a repeating rifle would be a higher priority. I am sure that many or most cowboys would have liked to have a sidearm just not sure if they could afford it.


It would be very interesting to know what the price of a box of .44-40 or .45's would have been in adjusted dollars.

[HABCAN]

Thumbcocker...........at a recent gunshow here, looking for some .44-40 ammo, I was 'pleased' to find a "very rare box of it (standard 50 rnd. WW yellow box) all wrapped in saran to preserve its collectability" on special sale for ONLY CDN$95.00!!! I have 50 pieces of new Rem brass waiting for pickup at a local hardware store for CDN$35+........a pal spotted it for me: they didn't know how they got it or what it was for......."Some antique, I guess?"

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It turns out a bit less than I thought in the 1899 Winchester catalogue - $22 a thousand for .45LC and $19 for .44-40, and probably a bit more when you were buying them by the small box. It's still more than I can imagine cowboys doing a lot of practice with.

One point I doubt if we can ever know is how many had small caliber pocket revolvers, which could be around half the price for ammunition (with very little difference for centrefire or rimfire, which surprises me), and much less in proportion for the pistol itself. The unspeakable General Blokhin could have given you an expert opinion on whether that would be good enough for putting down an injured steer or horse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Blokhin

Argentinian gauchos used to carry a cheap .32 in a special little pocket in their wide belt. The main purpose seems to have been that anybody watching it might miss the first split second of movement in the knife hand.

[Thumbcocker]

Online inflation calculator says $1 in 1899 is $28 in 2014 so roughly $14 per box for ammo. $30 per month wages would equal $840 per month in 2014.

[Patrick56]

Uberti claims it is safe to carry with 6 loaded chambers. I have one as well and pulling back the hammer to engage the safety notch not only blocks the hammer/firing pin, but also captivates the trigger so that it cannot be pulled which might release the safety notch.
It is maybe true with a gun straight from the factory. I bought an used Uberti 44-40 and found out, when I disassembled it, that the transfer bar was removed. I would not carry that gun loaded with six cartridges, never. I have no doubts with my S&W m66.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

It is maybe true with a gun straight from the factory. I bought an used Uberti 44-40 and found out, when I disassembled it, that the transfer bar was removed. I would not carry that gun loaded with six cartridges, never. I have no doubts with my S&W m66.

Unless I am mistaken, the Uberti never had a transfer bar safety.

[scattershot]

I currently have two, and neither of mine do.

[robertbank]

Online inflation calculator says $1 in 1899 is $28 in 2014 so roughly $14 per box for ammo. $30 per month wages would equal $840 per month in 2014.

Have you fellas checked to see what Cowboys were making back then? My Great Grand Dad was teaching school in Nelson, BC in the 1880's for $50, per year. My brother has a Canadian Pacific Railway monthly cheque made out to my Grand-dad from about 1914 IIRC for .17 cents. which was all the money he would earn that month after working all month, six days a week on a railway work train. Room and Board in the company train had been deducted as well as any clothing etc he might have had to buy from the company store also located on the train. As a young boy Gand dad told me he used to pay 5 cents for a box of 50 .22LR, Shorts sold for 5 cents a hundred. Blue jeans cost 15 cents a pair around 1900.

I doubt very much any Cowboy ever made $30/month. The whole western gun play thing is about 99.9% Hollywood fiction. eg One of the closest thing to a gunfight was the OK Corral event and it took place in a small alley between two buildings and not in any corral as we would know it. Lastly in the History Channels report on the gunfight one of the guest authorities made it clear the term "Cowboy" at the time was two words not one as in Cow Boy and was a derisive term and had not the connotation we understand the word to mean today.

Jeff Cooper's book on handguns shows a Colt SAA at $125. and that was in 1966. $15 - $20 for a new Colt back in the day would have likely been beyond the financial resources of many of the Cowhands back in the late 1880's. I have a Colt New Navy D.A. chambered in 41 LC left to me that my Great Grand Dad had. The guns patient date is 1884 just 11 years after the 1873 came out. I add this only to point out there were more revolvers around than just the 1873 on the frontier at the time and like others have said the percussion guns were still around and probably more in the hands of the working poor than we realize. When you look at the old pictures of the West you soon realize few were living in high on the hog. From what I see conditions were harsh living in the West.

Take Care

Bob

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Could it be that it was a learning curve? Originally 6 was favored, but experience proved 5 to be safer?

Puts me in mind of my Army days, which fell somewhere between Custer and Westmoreland, when the Army mandated that there were two conditions for the 1911. Normally, empty chamber, hammer down, in the holster. Imminent action, chamber loaded, hammer cocked in the hand.
Never any mention of the thumb safety. The military will find a way to (try) compensate for operator error, valid or not.

Speaking specifically of Uberti 1873-types, it is my understanding that they have done away with the safety on the forward bottom edge of the hammer found in the earlier guns. The two shown in the attached photo are both .32-20s which I acquired used and which had burred themselves up internally to the point that they were almost impossible to cock. Replacement of the early safety-type hammers with non-safety versions solved the problem and now they are amazingly smooth, so in their case the empty chamber rule is in force.

I would not under any circumstances trust the "hammer between the rims" carry on any non-transfer bar mechanism as it wouldn't take much to push the hammer back a bit and let it snap forward (name your own hazard--tree branch, fence wire, etc.) and discharge the firearm, as it only has half a turn to make to advance it to the next chamber up. 142806

[DougGuy]

Unless I am mistaken, the Uberti never had a transfer bar safety.

Uberti employs two safeties.

Some models have a longer cylinder pin with two notches on it that when fitted to the second notch the pin protrudes into the frame window and prevents the hammer from it's full travel thereby preventing the firing pin from coming through the recoil shield to make contact with a primer. The gun cannot be fired until the cylinder pin latch is depressed and the cylinder pin is moved to engage the first notch.

The other safety feature they employ on some models is a hammer mounted safety block that engages when the hammer is pulled back slightly from the fully downward position and this block prevents the hammer from full travel much the same way as the cylinder pin safety does. The hammer block safety automatically retracts when the trigger is pulled and the hammer is fully cocked allowing the hammer to fully travel to fire the gun. When the hammer is pulled slightly back to engage the hammer block safety, this action also captivates the trigger so it cannot be pulled which might cause the hammer to fall fully forward.

Even though my Uberti has the hammer block safety I still only load 5 rounds at a time. There is nothing that I need to do with the gun that cannot be accomplished with 5 rounds instead of 6, so I only load 5 rounds.

[robertbank]

My Uberti Cattleman and Patron are both relatively new and both have the safety catch where you draw the hammer back about 1/4". This takes the firing pin on the hammer behind the face plate and also locks the trigger.

Take Care

Bob

[Blackwater]

I think Bigslug has the old cowboys pegged very precisely. One thing we leave out of our suppositions on this issue, usually, is the simple fact that many chose the cowboy life partly out of necessity and lack of options, but also because they actually enjoyed being "out there" on horseback and sleeping under the marvelous stars of those pre-smog days. They LIKED the solitude, especially when contrasted with the life in towns where people met and friction of all sorts made living with aggrevations that ensued less desirable than the relative "peace and quiet" of the ranges for at least a fair portion of them. We still have folks like this, and one of the things that relative solitude does to a man or a small group, is it simply gives us the TIME and to a large degree, the MOTIVATION to discuss matters such as the one before us now. They'd talk about serious things in seriouis ways, but not TOO seriously. They mostly discussed their experiences and aspirations, because this is simply what guys do when in that kind of environment.

Thus, I think the old real cowboys of the 1870's roughly, DID get the message about loading 5, but I suspect it wasn't an overnight thing at all, and then too, when in indian country and fearful of attacks, I'm sure they did as I'd have done and loaded 6. When you're already in danger, what's a little added bit for good measure, that just MIGHT be able to save your life rather than take it?

I think they were much more rational, at least by and large, than we often think, simply because they HAD to be, and we humans may be pretty capable of all manner of foolishness, but when our lives are on the line, we usually (at least most of us?) learn what we actually HAVE to. Motivation is the key to this, and it's about as reliable as anything man has to use in these matters.

[bob208]

I was at a gun show picked up 4 bags of 50 each for $15 a bag. got home and two of the bags were factory primed.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Uberti employs two safeties.

Some models have a longer cylinder pin with two notches on it that when fitted to the second notch the pin protrudes into the frame window and prevents the hammer from it's full travel thereby preventing the firing pin from coming through the recoil shield to make contact with a primer. The gun cannot be fired until the cylinder pin latch is depressed and the cylinder pin is moved to engage the first notch.

The other safety feature they employ on some models is a hammer mounted safety block that engages when the hammer is pulled back slightly from the fully downward position and this block prevents the hammer from full travel much the same way as the cylinder pin safety does. The hammer block safety automatically retracts when the trigger is pulled and the hammer is fully cocked allowing the hammer to fully travel to fire the gun. When the hammer is pulled slightly back to engage the hammer block safety, this action also captivates the trigger so it cannot be pulled which might cause the hammer to fall fully forward.

Even though my Uberti has the hammer block safety I still only load 5 rounds at a time. There is nothing that I need to do with the gun that cannot be accomplished with 5 rounds instead of 6, so I only load 5 rounds.

That sounds more like it. A transfer bar makes the connection between hammer and firing-pin, and if it is missing or broken, the gun doesn't fire. A hammer block stops the contact, making an accidental discharge likely if it is absent.

Here is the transfer bar, in black, of the Iver Johnson break-open revolvers, which I believe was in use as long asthat much underrated firm existed. Ironically it is a straight copy from theFrench 1873, with the mentonnet or chin-piece, which raises the hammer in doubleaction, extended upwards to form a true transfer bar. Observe how the handspring is sandwiched between two moving parts, operating both, and doesn't scrape up and down the rear of the hand slot.

142829


I don't have a Colt SAA in front of me at the moment, but various other revolvers in comparable calibres I do. Would there have been any gap between cases that you could get the firing-pin into? This form of safe carry may only have been possible with cap and ball, or smaller cartridge heads.

Robert's grandfather may have let a zero slip, which is not the most important kind of memory to have. The 1899 Winchester catalogue shows the .22 Short at $5 per thousand and the .22LR at $6. Doubling the per 1000 price for per 50 wouldn't be an unusual practice in a local hardware store. It was common in many countries for a schoolmaster to be paid less than a manual worker. A cowboy's mistake could bring disaster in a few minutes, and a schoolmaster could be half-way to retirement before anybody noticed.

Winchester in 1899 still catalogued the.44 Colt (an inferior round to the one the Army forced on them) which was madefor the cartridge conversions of the 1860 Army. I don't know if it was used forthe purpose-made open top cartridge revolvers which preceded the 1973, but they were few in number. It suggests that 1860 conversions were still in use. I have a .38 rimfire conversion of the .36 Pocket Navy, and the metal over the rear of the cartridge is frighteningly thin. Well, frighten when it is an antique anyway. I think a blowout there would be harmless to the shooter, and probably wouldn't even stop you firing the others. Spare cylinders were in the consumables category. But that probably got a lot of cartridge conversions scrapped.

[DougGuy]

Would there have been any gap between cases that you could get the firing-pin into?


Some of the old timers used to notch a case rim so the firing pin could rest between two cases. I used to do it myself with a Colt SAA and it works.

[Patrick56]

Unless I am mistaken, the Uberti never had a transfer bar safety.
Sorry, I think the right name would be a hammer stop? There was a "bar" and some "stop" attached to the hammer with a pin. I suppose it is the same with the S&W 66, it is a hammer stop.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Some of the old timers used to notch a case rim so the firing pin could rest between two cases. I used to do it myself with a Colt SAA and it works.

You could write a murder mystery about that. But I suppose even the bevel of the rims might do.

[Larry Gibson]

The rims on original 45 Colt cases were smaller in diameter than they are today. It's why there weren't any lever guns in 45 Colt back then. Perhaps those didn't have to be notched for the firing pin to fit between them?

Larry Gibson

[TXGunNut]

I hear Uberti has a transfer bar now, saw a couple @ Cabelas but didn't ask for a closer look.

[robertbank]

The Beretta Stampede has a transfer bar similar in function to the Ruger. Beretta owns Uberti now so it would seem natural for the transfer bar system to migrate to a Uberti model. The Stampede has a better front sight and a wider rear slot making sight pick up faster and for older eyes easier. The Cattleman series of Ubertis are faithful reproductions of the Colt SAA and frankly of the two revolvers I prefer the Cattleman and even more the Patron. The safety system on the Cattleman and Patron allows for safe loading of six rounds if one is so inclined.

Take Care

Bob

[rbertalotto]

old lore has it the open cylinder was for a $20 bill for gambling money

I heard the $2 was to bury him.......$20 was WAY too much money to put in a cylinder

[HABCAN]

Pietta's clones in .44-40 allow the firing pin to rest comfortably between the cartridge rims with the hammer fully down. On the firing range we load five, 'skip-one style' but for carry, six with the hammers down as above. That double-notch 'safety'? UGH! An open-top holster MUST have a thong tie-down to slip over the hammer spur, and a leg tie-down will prevent a broken elbow if your horse goes ballistic.

for more money you can have a Pietta with a transfer bar......if you must.

[TXGunNut]

Handled a new Uberti yesterday, it had a transfer bar. Changed the whole feel of the gun. Oh, well. I don't generally buy new guns anyway.

[robertbank]

Handled a new Uberti yesterday, it had a transfer bar. Changed the whole feel of the gun. Oh, well. I don't generally buy new guns anyway.

Do you recall which model it was?

Bob

[TXGunNut]

Do you recall which model it was?

Bob

Appeared to be a Cattleman.

[35 Whelen]

Keith said in "SIXGUNS" the knowledgeable folks only loaded five. Horse transit was the norm and while securing the cinch the stirrup was hung on the saddle horn . When it slipped off, if it hit the hammer, it would break the safety notch out and cause an AD. Crippled men had trouble keeping employment.

I read this too, BUT in the same book Keith also related how he loaded his 38-40 by alternating jacketed and cast rounds; three of each. Hmm....

35W

[35 Whelen]

Handled a new Uberti yesterday, it had a transfer bar. Changed the whole feel of the gun. Oh, well. I don't generally buy new guns anyway.

Are you sure they're using a transfer bar? Their website and downloadable manuals say nothing about it. They ARE using the hammer block safety however.

35W

[TXGunNut]

Yes, someone mentioned it to me and I went back to check. Saw it with my own eyes. New Pietta next to it had one too. Not a fan of that safety attached to the hammer, either. It's safely bagged up and headed for my parts box.

[9.3X62AL]

I would bet most carried with 6. They didn't have much knowledge of guns or safety, in general. There were more people killed on wagon trains by accidental discharges, than Indian attacks.

That last sentence of yours has the ring of truth and likelihood to it, Ric. Is there empirical data on hand to bear this out?

I was taught from Day 1 with Colt SAA systems to CARRY the things with hammer down on an empty chamber. For range or field firing, fill it up and have fun, but if it was to be holstered or set aside either clear it completely or leave that hammer chamber unfilled.

[waksupi]

That last sentence of yours has the ring of truth and likelihood to it, Ric. Is there empirical data on hand to bear this out?

I was taught from Day 1 with Colt SAA systems to CARRY the things with hammer down on an empty chamber. For range or field firing, fill it up and have fun, but if it was to be holstered or set aside either clear it completely or leave that hammer chamber unfilled.

I've read a pile of historical accounts over the years, and it is mentioned time and again. I recall one guide reporting thirteen accidentally shot on the trip to Oregon, and no problems with Indians at all. I seem to recall the most common way of the discharge was people reaching into a wagon, and pulling the gun out by the muzzle.
The old timers just weren't as "gunny" as we think they were. During the Great Sioux Uprising in Minnesota, very few of the settlers owned any type of firearm at all, making easy work for the Sioux.
At one time I had "The Encyclopedia of Old West Gunfighters". It was pretty clear innocent bystanders were in much more danger than the participants, and there was a lot more smoke and noise than actual injury.

[robertbank]

I suspect there is more myth than truth in most "stories" of the old west. Hollywood and the dime novels made a romantic life out of what must have been tough living. You see the sod brick homes of the homesteaders on the Canadian prairies and it doesn't look much like 5 Star living to me.

Grand-dad told me most arguments in the mining towns of BC were settled by fist fights. Minors carried wine corks in their pockets. If they got in a fight they didn't want to break a finger or hand. Broken hand meant no work. I can't believe it was any different south of the 49th.

Take Care

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

No transfer bar in my Uberti Cattleman vintage late 2012/early 2013. What it does have as a lame-azzed safety of sorts is a base pin that can be pushed inward to a detent stop, and the base pin end allegedly prevents full hammer fall and primer ignition. I wouldn't trust and don't use such idiocies, in the same manner that I ignore button safeties on leverguns. Regimens to load, carry, and use these systems were worked out a long time ago, and I abide by them from force of habit. It ain't rocket science.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I suspect there is more myth than truth in most "stories" of the old west. Hollywood and the dime novels made a romantic life out of what must have been tough living. You see the sod brick homes of the homesteaders on the Canadian prairies and it doesn't look much like 5 Star living to me.

Grand-dad told me most arguments in the mining towns of BC were settled by fist fights. Minors carried wine corks in their pockets. If they got in a fight they didn't want to break a finger or hand. Broken hand meant no work. I can't believe it was any different south of the 49th.

Take Care

Bob

I hope you mean miners, although you never know. People may have been a bit less ready to resort to their hardware in the great white queen's country. They certainly were on the Yukon. I believe that is true about accidental shootings outnumbering deaths by Indian attacks, or whatever you call them nowadaysJams Michener the novelist, who is good on research, certainly said so in "Texas". It might have been different after the first great migrations in the US, though, as the Civil War intervened. As far as violence by others was concerned, I don't believe it was ever more dangerous than the eastern cities.

One western scenario I've always though false was the small town where the peace-loving and terrified inhabitants were dominated by outlaws. Was there ever a small town without its Civil War veterans, including hardened and capable technicians of violence, who knew a window has all the advantages over horseback?

In a revolver designed after the Colt SAA it would be very difficult to install a good transfer bar without radically changing the trigger design in a way most aficianados would dislike. The trigger just doesn't move far enough, unless it were to produce an extremely small overlap of the moving parts which would probably give trouble in time.

Just for the record Charles Dickens in 1854 probably originated a term which was to go far in Colt history:

"Anecdotes, calculated to propitiate the Peace Society, appear in Californian papers, mentioning how large parties of Indians, beholding those irresistible peacemakers in the hands of a handful of gold carriers, have been seen to drop their greedy eyes, and slink away."

[35 Whelen]

The base pin safety really does work, but I never use it. As far as that goes, due to the ever present possibility of critters around here, I carry constantly when I'm outside, and always load 6 and use the safety notch.

At the risk of getting a bit philosophical, I must say that we as a society have evolved to the point that we live our lives looking for things that we deem unsafe. When we find these booger bears we then set about looking for a cure which will eliminate the hazard. After the hazard is eliminated, we can again relax and use our minds for things other than the awareness of that which is going on around us. Situational awareness, fellas.

In the last 45 or so years I've crawled through and over a million barbed wire fences, traipsed brushy creek bottoms, and been up and down mountains, all with a long gun in my hand or a revolver on my belt. What I learned as a lad was that my firearm was to be protected at all costs...even over my body, and this had to be second nature. I've taken lots of falls and never dropped or fallen on my firearm.

There have always been and will always be humans who are careless. These are the ones who mindlessly lower the hammer and firing pin on the primer of a live cartridge, crawl through a fence oblivious to the position of their firearms, or trek the side of a snowy mountain not once thinking of where their firearm will go should they slip and fall.

One can find countless threads on this very subject and the outcome is usually the same: carry your revolver loaded with five, and that's probably what's best for most folks nowadays. But I tend to agree with Tacitus who said: “The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.”

35W

[scattershot]

"One western scenario I've always though false was the small town where the peace-loving and terrified inhabitants were dominated by outlaws. Was there ever a small town without its Civil War veterans, including hardened and capable technicians of violence, who knew a window has all the advantages over horseback?"


see Northfield, Minnesota. There was probably a lot more of that than we are led to believe.

[robertbank]

Ballistics in Scotland (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?392-Ballistics-in-Scotland) yes miner it is. Grand-dad was referring to mining towns of south central BC where he grew up in the 1890's. The gun play nonsense was never a feature of the Canadian West and certainly over blown south of the 49th by Hollywood. The NWMP later the RCMP saw to that in Canada after their march west n the 1970's. My American friends can correct me but the high noon drama of the gun fight between two individuals was the stuff of dime novels, the OK Corral incident being an exception.

Al the safety on the Cattleman series is likely mandated by the US import regulations for firearms and the requirement of an active safety. Seems to me that is the case.

Take Care

Bob

[JHeath]

Ballistics in Scotland (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?392-Ballistics-in-Scotland) yes miner it is. Grand-dad was referring to mining towns of south central BC where he grew up in the 1890's. The gun play nonsense was never a feature of the Canadian West and certainly over blown south of the 49th by Hollywood. The NWMP later the RCMP saw to that in Canada after their march west n the 1970's. My American friends can correct me but the high noon drama of the gun fight between two individuals was the stuff of dime novels, the OK Corral incident being an exception.

Al the safety on the Cattleman series is likely mandated by the US import regulations for firearms and the requirement of an active safety. Seems to me that is the case.

Take Care

Bob

No, there was a lot of shooting going on down here. It didn't look necessarily look like Hollywood westerns, and I can't cite the numbers. But it's plain enough to me that it was going on. My father's family is from Texas. Dear old Great Aunt Stacia, widow of a prison guard, kept loaded pistols all over the house. Dad wouldn't approach her door without multiple relatives present, and even then calling to the house from the gate. She'd had a dispute with a neighbor over a hedge and shot his glasses off with a .32 while he was on a ladder trimming it over her previously stated objections. Great Uncle Jim on my mother's side of the family shot two bootlegger rivals in a cafe, after they foolishly stated they were out to get him and came looking for him there. That's just two examples but it's the world these folks lived in. I could go on.

BTW neither of them got into legal trouble, having explained the situations satisfactorily.

There's a great book -- well worth reading -- _Born Fighting_ about the Scots-Irish influence in the US. It's a different population than you got up there in Canada.

I worked in Canada (well, Quebec. But with lots of Rest-of-Canadians too). And the perspective is very different down here. It's slowly changing, but Southerners of even my father's generation felt moved to defend their own rights and dignity, and didn't let much get in the way.

[doc1876]

OK, we have discussed the cost of the gun, bullets, and the wages of a cowhand.
That being addressed, there is a good authentic "gunfight" where Billy the kid adjusted Joe Grant's revolver to land on an empty chamber. It is later reported that Grant had only three bullets in his gun. This brings up the notion that bullets were indeed available individually, so I am sure many cowboy only had two or three in his gun, as that is all he could afford.
Men like Earp, Hickok and Holliday lived by their gun, so they would sacrifice to make sure to have enough ammunition for any swaree that the got into.,

[HABCAN]

Marstar's Canadian catalogue listings show both 'original' and 'transfer bar' models of SAA Piettas. Transfer bars cost more. http://www.marstar.ca/dynamic/category.jsp?catid=76374
Take your pick.

[robertbank]

Marstar's Canadian catalogue listings show both 'original' and 'transfer bar' models of SAA Piettas. Transfer bars cost more. http://www.marstar.ca/dynamic/category.jsp?catid=76374
Take your pick.

The only Uberti connected SAAà I know of with a transfer bar are the Beretta Stampede models. Beretta owns Uberti.


JHeath (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?23242-JHeath) the Canadian West was initially populated by the Scots in Manitoba right after the land clearings in Scotland by Lord Southerland and then came the Irish when the potato famine hit Ireland. After that came the German. Norse countries etc. The biggest difference I can see is the Canadian Gov`t sent out the NWMP in 1873 to ensure law and order prevailed in Western Canada and to ensure the land did not fall into the hands of the Americans. History tells us their decision worked.

Take Care

Bob

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I just took delivery of my Tranter revolver made from 1856, a solid-frame five-shot cocking by a middle-finger spur under the trigger guards, which puts a slightly larger bullet into a shade less weight and space than the Navy Colt. I wonder if anybody ever felt short of ammunition when that sixth chamber wasn't sitting there looking useless?

[hpdrifter]

Even with my "new' Rugers, I only load 5.

Cartridges usually come in multiples of 5. I hate getting to the end of a box and having just 2 left.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

In Wyatt Earp's biography by Stewart Lake Earp was to have said he had perfect confidence in his ability to put 10 out of 10 in an area the size of a man's chest at 100 yards. This sounds like the comment of a person who assumes the Peacemaker holds five (5) rounds.

This comes to mind as yesterday I was at the range with one of my Colt SAA's and shot it at 100 yards. I fired 5 rounds and found they hit low. The Colt I was using was a .45, not the .44 Special which is used most for 100 yard shooting. As I was firing my second string of 5 it seemed the recoil was light. Reading my notes on the box of cartridges I realized I had grabbed my Trail Boss light loads by mistake and thought I was shooting my Unique powder loads. Elmer Keith's words: "One gun, one load" came to mind. All my cartridge boxes are color coded by calibre but different loads in the same calibre are not color coded, I should have read my writing on the box.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Even with my "new' Rugers, I only load 5.

Cartridges usually come in multiples of 5. I hate getting to the end of a box and having just 2 left.

Now there is a way they could increase ammunition sales: boxes of 5x6 or 3x6. Unfortunately it isn't patentable.

I would hesitate to take Lake's word for anything. Wild Bill, whose ability and courage is far more reliably documented than Earp's, probably did kill Bob Tutt with a single shot from at from seventy yards, and it may well have hit the heart as is claimed. The classic duel in main street, like many another thing that myths are made of, undoubtedly did happen occasionally. But it was far more typical for gunfights to take place between tired and partially inebriated men, taken on the wrong foot, encumbered by furniture, and at ranges varying from about ten feet to zero.

The human reaction time to a visual stimulus is about a tenth of a second, which is more than the difference between a brilliant fast-draw man and somebody who is just passably OK. I think it is safe to say that among competent gunslingers no fight was ever won by outdrawing a man on seeing him start to draw. It was done by having the judgement, instinct and ruthlessness to Pearl Harbor someone whose body language suggested he was on the point of resorting to violence. Or being able to square the local law enforcement afterwards.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Stewart Lake has been heavily criticized, however Shillingberg's work is clearly in gross error yet not the subject of the same criticism. Stewart Lake was Teddy Roosevelt's press secretary. President Roosevelt directed Stewart Lake to write a biography of Bat Masterson while Masterson was still alive to preserve the frontier as it was while Hollywood was depicting the frontier in error. Masterson told Stewart Lake to get Earp's story as a story of the frontier. I've read about 5 books on Tombstone and been there. Marks is generally respected as the most accurate historian and her book "And Die in the West" is good too, however she is no fighter and probably has never even been involved in anything as dynamic as a game of handball.

I am a full time investigator with over 30 years of experience and have worked many shooting investigations. People tell their stories with editing, deceit, and pride. Yet if we read between the lines elements of truth are there. It is significant that Lake's book quotes Earp as saying 10 out of 10 and not 12 out of 12. It's interesting that Lake is discredited when there is great detail in his book. The OK Corral shootout happened next door to Fly's photography and we have a picture of the dying men being treated by the doctor and Lake's description of their clothing even bears accurate.

Lake's book was written so it could be read by junior high boys, but I have taken many statements from persons after shootings and it's clear to me that rather than dismiss Lake, we should read him like we would read any other account where there is an agenda which does not match the facts.

Comments on "fast draw" are not relevant to actual shootings on the frontier or in today's time. Fast draw or fast on the draw was a phrase Earp used to describe what we call in today's time a psychopath, a person who is quick to use guns. Frontier gunslinger is a phase in today's time that might sound like the bases of a good movie, on the frontier the term gunslinger was used to describe the lowest form of human, a murderer.

Earp was a plainsman, 100 yards was not and is not a long shot to those who live in flat wide open country. Especially on the frontier where there were no electronic gadgets to occupy one's time. Boredom was rampant, there were no TV's and no beer in the refrigerator. Firearms were used for work and sitting around camp in the middle of no where shooting firearms for sport at 100 yards would be a regular pass time.