Trap Clean Out

[MilesTeg]

First I'm new here, long time lurker first time poster. I've been reloading for a few years now and have always wanted to try casting. Living in New York lead is hard to come by so I have been waiting to jump in until I had a steady supply of lead. As of last week I finally found it. For the club I belong to I will be the trap clean out guy. So I have a few questions to get me started.

First any tips on collecting from and indoor sand trap. What type of inserts should I buy for a respirator. Is a respirator needed? What is the best way to dig up the lead? The previous guy isn't available for me to ask how he did it. One of the club members said that the other guy would use a crowbar and just grab the big chunks out. I'm fine with not getting all the lead out with this clean out but maybe done one clean out a year where I sift it all and try to get everything I can out. Is this a good plan?


I'm sure I'm going to have more questions when I start smelting/cleaning the lead, and even more questions when I actually start casting. Thank for the anticipated help!

[dilly]

Most thorough/efficient nonindustrial setups have involved a hardware screen to sift the dirt. You may have to make a little frame for that screen and just start putting shovels full through. You got tour work cut out for you, but free lead and contribution to your new club are good.

[borg]

If the range is well used and is a sloping backstop into sand, the lead will build up in packed layers.
If you have access to a wrecking bar would be nice, but you can do it with a long crowbar and a sledge.
Try to get in smaller chunks if you can so they fit in a bucket.
I don't remember which breathing filter I used, but it was difficult to breath through, other guy supplied them.
If you do the screening of the sand, build a 2ft by 2ft out of 2x4's with hardware cloth bottom, anything smaller will go back into the sand and will start the process all over again.
If you can. get the bigger chunks in the truck/car on a strong tarp and break up later, we had some pieces that went over 200# and could have gone bigger, but with just two people,,,we ended up with over 10,000 lbs.

[Sparky141]

Our outdoor range has a sloping sand berm . I use the 2x4 frame with 1/4"mesh bottom and get about 400 lb an hour . there are no clumps of lead just individual projectiles .

[dilly]

You may want to invest in a pretty heavy duty "smelting" setup and some ingot molds that will be able to keep up with you also.

Keep in mind the size of MFRB boxes when you select your ingot molds if you plan to sell range scrap on here.

Try and find a scrap yard that will buy your copper jackets if you can. There's not as much use to a home caster but probably as much value in the jackets as there is in the lead.

[WILCO]

First I'm new here....

Welcome aboard! If you have to invest money in getting the range scrap, you're better off just buying alloy of a known quality from a known vendor. Another thing to know is how much casting do you plan to do? High volume or small batch production?

Best wishes as you go forward!

[MilesTeg]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

To address some the comments. I'm on my phone so I'm not going to quote the replies. I'm not that good.

The he trap I plan on clearing out is sloped steel into the sand so I'm guessing that the bullet hits it and follows it into the sand an collects it one spot forming a chunk of lead.

I think my current plan is get in and clean out the bigger chunks and not sift it. Maybe do this style of clean out a few times a year and do a once a year full sift and clean out.

Considering I've never smelted before I don't really know what I need and don't need at this point. The current plan is a turkey fryer and a Dutch oven. I would like to upgrade a wood fired smelter because I do a ton of fire wood and it wood be free fuel. As for as the ingot molds I was going to pick up two with my next midway order (45acp dies). If anyone has any better ingot mold ideas I am definitely open to suggestions.

As as far as how much do I plan to cast. Truthfully I don't know yet considering I've never casted a bullet or been around it. My shooting past has never been around volume shooting. It always has been long distance, hunting, sporting clays and military. Never truely volume shooting that would warrant me to get into casting. But recently I have taken up pistol shooting and have joined a defensive pistol league and am having a blast. I can't hit anything but having fun.

As far as if I'm paying for the range scrap the answer is no. The only thing I have invested is time and equipment.

Once again any any input is greatly appreciated.

[fecmech]

Welcome to the board! In regards to the ingot mold subject I would recommend yard sale aluminum muffin pans. Another place to find them is the Salvation Army stores etc. You don't want the steel ones as the lead will stick. Get as many as you can as the lead in them takes a long time to cool. Also any other type of kitchen cast iron mold like the corn shaped ones etc. I hope your backstop is dry. I have access to ours but we have a water problem at the base of the steel and the lead is badly oxidized. I tried smelting some but it took so much propane to melt the oxidized lead I quit. Good luck to you.

[lightman]

I have cleaned out a few bullet traps. Take a bunch of containers. 5 gallon buckets are good, just don't fill them up. I used a wheelbarrow and built a sifter out of hardware cloth and 2x4's. I put the sifter over the wheelbarrow and shoveled the sand onto the sifter. I used an army style folding shovel at the trap and a longer handled shovel to move the sand back to the trap. Our range placed the targets about eye level, so a short stool or ladder helped a lot. A 2 wheel dolly would help moving the buckets of lead. I started at one end and worked my way to the other end. A lot of the lead built up at the bottom of the sloped plate, but I found it worth while to sift everything. You will find out pretty quickly if you are getting lead or not. I used a breathing mask, but I don't remember what type I used. Its a good bit of work but you should get a lot of good lead pretty quick.

As far as melting your haul, there are a lot of threads about this, many with pictures. A turkey fryer and a Dutch oven are favorites as are the said turkey fryer and a pot made from a propane tank. If you are dealing with a large volume, you will need several ingot molds or you will be waiting on them to cool off. Some set them in water or on wet towels, but if you do, Be Careful. Many guys make their molds from angle or channel iron and there are a few members that sell them and other smelting gear. You should make a good haul from this! Good Luck!

[RoGrrr]

Go to this thread -
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?280723-clean-out-day-at-the-range!
and look at the sifter I built specifically to mine berms.
Granted, the 1\4" machine screen will let many of the 22s fall thru but will catch all the 9s, 40s and 45s.
When I mine outdoor berms I try to do it on a breezy day but can't always have wind. Indoors, you should wear a simple paper mask. When you're done, go right to the bathroom and wash your hands. Then draw some warm water into your nose and rinse it out. You'll be surprised at how much DIRT comes out !
And when people ask me about the hardness of my cast boolits, I shrug and say that no matter what they are, they will perform far better than I ever will be able to.

[runfiverun]

if your handy or know someone who is.
get some 1-1/2' angle iron and cut it into 6" lengths, weld everything together with a little slope on the outside edges so the ingots come back out easily.
weld everything from the bottom.
I use angle iron for the sides too, then the mold can sit flat and I can grab ahold of it to flip it over.
make a few of them [3-4-5] so 1-2 is cooling while you fill the others
you'll see how tightly the ingots stack together.

[MilesTeg]

I work as an engineer for a company that does a lot of steel over head sign structures. Now to find a shop guy that can find me the scraps drops and weld them up for me. I'm hoping to have these guys help me build a smelter too at some point out of drops. We use a bunch of large diameter pipe and threaded rod, so we have the materials. I'm unsure of the design yet I don't want to make the thing so heavy I can't move it in and out of the garage. The smelter project is on the back burner considering I've never melted an ounce of lead in my life.

This weekend I plan on picking up some 5-gallon pails and some dust masks for the clean out. I will have a week off of work sometime in the next month, because my first kid is do anytime now. I'm thinking I will need to get out of the house at some point and what better thing to do than go and collect some lead. I think the first venture will be getting all the large chunks out and later in the year doing a complete cleanout with a sifter. After that hopefully I will be able to get the clean outs on some sort of schedule.

I still think that I'm a few moths off of actually casting bullets sadly. Funds are limited so I might have to wait for my third quarter bonus. I hope the range scrap will work well enough for 45 ACP when they are powder coated.

[imashooter2]

I've gotten several thousand pounds of scrap from 3 different indoor ranges. The backstops were sloped steel into troughs (no sand). The steel splattered most of the lead. The take was flattened chunks with a lot of fines and target scraps. It was all loose, not packed. I'm surprised at the all the replies that talk about large packed chunks of lead. Not my experience at all.

http://home.comcast.net/~imashooter2/pictures/scrap600.jpg

[blaser.306]

I will second the "chunk of lead " The range we just had cleaned out always develops a large chunk of lead right at the bottom of the steel backstop. When you approach the task. Take all you expect you will need and then make sure everything is heavy enough. Most important, take breaks . "free lead " isn't worth a back injury! As far as the melting goes, We ( another club member and I ) Just melted 1500 lbs in an eight hour shift. Turkey fryer burners and propane tank pots were the order of the day.

[lightman]

Congratulations on that first kid! Look at the stickys above the Cast Bullet and the Lead and Lead Alloys forums. There are a few threads about members that made smelting pots, and some of them are very nice. Read back several pages.

As far as your cleanout goes, look at it like an Engineer would and just make a flow chart. The main things are; You have to get it out of the backstop, you have to sift it, you have to put the sand back in the backstop, and you have to move the heavy material to your vehicle. If you are young and strong you can carry a half of a 5 gallon bucket or more of lead and load it, but a 2 wheel dolly sure saves the old body a lot of wear!

And yes, the range scrap should work well in a 45 ACP.

[dilly]

Now don't go panicking about this as there's a lot more frenzied scare about lead on the internet than there is scientific fact, but it should be mentioned.

With a pregnant wife and a new baby, make sure to take proper precautions with all of this lead. Adults have a pretty high tolerance but pregnant women and infants are more susceptible.

Keep your dirty work stuff separate from the family, and wash well.

[MilesTeg]

Congratulations on that first kid! Look at the stickys above the Cast Bullet and the Lead and Lead Alloys forums. There are a few threads about members that made smelting pots, and some of them are very nice. Read back several pages.

As far as your cleanout goes, look at it like an Engineer would and just make a flow chart. The main things are; You have to get it out of the backstop, you have to sift it, you have to put the sand back in the backstop, and you have to move the heavy material to your vehicle. If you are young and strong you can carry a half of a 5 gallon bucket or more of lead and load it, but a 2 wheel dolly sure saves the old body a lot of wear!

And yes, the range scrap should work well in a 45 ACP.

Thanks for the congratulations, I'm pretty exited. I'm relatively fit so carrying the 5 gallon pals shouldn't be a problem. Now that I typed that I will throw my back out. The vehicle thing is of some concern I have a new Volkswagen Jetta. So it's on the small side. I go to the range every other week so maybe I'll store some of the buckets and grab a couple every time I'm there. Hopefully no one takes them on me.

As far as going about it like an engineer, this is a personal problem of mine I like to research everything to death. It usually works out in my favor but sometimes I spend weeks researching for an hour long project.

[/QUOTE]Now don't go panicking about this as there's a lot more frenzied scare about lead on the internet than there is scientific fact, but it should be mentioned.

With a pregnant wife and a new baby, make sure to take proper precautions with all of this lead. Adults have a pretty high tolerance but pregnant women and infants are more susceptible.

Keep your dirty work stuff separate from the family, and wash well.[/QUOTE]

I know there was a concern on the lead. That's why I was thinking about a respirator instead of a mask. The clothing issue is one I hadn't thought of so thank you I will be sure to keep them separate.

[RoGrrr]

I built my smelter using a piece of 7x9" rectangular tubing about 8" long and welded a 3/16" plate as the bottom. I don't know what the BTU output of my propane burner is but it is a normal turkey fryer burner. I added 4 pieces of sheet metal to act as a chimney to channel the heat up along the sides of the crucible. Even with that, I smelt everything in my garage to stay of of the wind but I keep the door open and the breeze wafts it out.

And when you mine the berms or traps, shake out your clothes before you throw them in the washing machine. I have a big air compressor so I use the air nozzle to blow the crud out/off

[country gent]

I would look into a solid 2x4 frame with cross supports for the 1/4" hardware cloth /mesh/screen on the top a boxed in fram around the legs with cross bracing on 3 sides, leave one side open to shovel from. If the range has electricity available a 1/4 to Half horse motor turning a 4" pulley with a bolt well off center to provide vibrations. emove any big chunks. Plug in sifter and and shovel sand on top of mesh vibrator should remove sand and leave lead on screen to be removed. If you want to get fancy a chute on one side with 1*-5* angle place sand on high side and vibrations should move sand thru mesh and lead into chute and into a buket under it. Build the frame in such a way that a wheel barrow rolls under it and you only have to shovel the sand once. As to smelting A propane tank cut off just bemow the top radious will hold about 400 lbs of molten lead a very heavy stand with a weed burner will allow it to sit and be melted. A weed burner ( 50,000 btus will melt this quickly) A rack to pour ingots on and cool A big ladle I would make ingot moulds that poured 4-5 3 pound ingots at a time 1 1/2x 1 1/2 X 8? long angle iron makes a sive that will fit on end in most casting pots. Make 5-6 of these so when done pouring them full the first should be ready to drop out in this way you can continuosly pour ingots not having to wait for them to cool. Make a ladle that holds enough to completely fill one ingot moulds 4 spots. Yep thats a ladle to hold 12-15lbs of metal so a long pipe handle for 2 hand use. With this style set up 3-4 pots in a day should be doable thats 1200 lbs or so. Bigger ingots could be made but probably wont fit in a casting pot. You might want to consider a small ingot at the start after cleaning and fluxing make a small ingot allow to cool well and check hardness. Add any alloies needed and blend reflux then pour ingots saves a second melting to blend alloy.

[RoGrrr]

Gent
I like how you think but I'd fergit the ladle and replace it with a valve in the bottom of the pot and simply pour into the molds.
There are a number of threads on here showing pics of valves and molds. Some might even be STICKIES. I posted several showing my furnace, molds and rolling track to handle the sets of 5 molds. Each of my ingots is about 3 Lbs.
Unfortunately, my computer crashed several months ago and I lost everything I had so I can't post pics or even tell you which thread to look at. I tried searching for them but I can't find ANYTHING. It's as if the search function does not work at all for me. I can't even find a post I made yesterday !
As you pour ingots into the group of molds, they get HEAVIER, so I set up some rollers with "ears" on my home made molds so they could roll with no effort from me. I made 2 sets of molds and alternated between them.
I had done the ladle thing and it got old quickly. I also didn't like the spectre of bumping/splashing/dropping the ladle and having melt all over the place. This is why the aluminum casters tell newbies to not cast on concrete (driveway/garage floor). Smart people have either gravel or sand on their floor to keep that inevitable spill from running very far. They smelt/cast at far higher temperatures than we do so safety is of utmost importance.

[country gent]

Last plant I worked in Had a die cast area. refractory concrete floor but was rough finished. While the machines used shot tubes to fill moulds under pressure. ladles were used anytime the machines pots had to be emptied. The big furnaces 2 40,000lbs and one 50,000 lbs were bottom drops into a pot that traveled to fill machines. Want to see a real mess see a big furnace that dosnt shut off when the plug breaks. LOL. Or on the one occassion a water bottle about half full found its way with scrap into a pot. The bottom pour does work but also has some other issues to deal with. I have made the valves for friends but personally perferr a ladle.

[Handloader109]

If you have any friends that work at fast food restaurants, get them to be on the lookout for 5gallon pickle buckets. Pickles and other foodstuffs can come in buckets and they are usually tossed. Save a bit over buying.

[RoGrrr]

Sounds like a great setup there, Gent. I wish I could set up an automated handler for my small operation but it's simply not worth the effort and expense.
Having spilled some molten lead, I've become quite cautious when it comes to handling it. I researched smelting aluminum so I know how bad it can get. I laid some wood on the floor so that next time the spill might happen I wouldn't have to tap-dance to avoid the melt. Granted, the lead solidifies quickly on concrete but you don't be thinking bout dat when that shiny stream starts trying to run you down, ya know !
And, while a load of 15 to 20 Lbs isn't all that heavy, it gets repetitious and one tends to get careless (and accidents DO happen even if....). So I'm still leaning towards having a bottom-pour valve on my pots. Mine are fairly well precision machined so I don't have much of a problem with that residual/random drip.
I water-wash my ore and typically smelt it the next day (all this is in the summer, here in Ohio). My procedure is to spread it out as a 'loaf' near the front of my dump bed trailer, which is inclined to about 15*. I start at one end and direct the stream of water from my garden hose nozzle upwards, but down close to the bed of the trailer so it's almost horizontal and pushes the boolits uphill. The dirt/mud washes down and by the time I'm done, I have a pile of clean scrap at the very front/top/high end of the trailer. Unfortunately, I don't have a helper to video this operation or I would post it. I've also heard of several people who have had unfired cartridges go off in their furnace. As I wash/sort I find all sorts of interesting stuff.
I then spread it out to dry in the afternoon sun so that by the end of the day it's ready to smelt the next day. Yes, I had a visit from the tinsel fairy but after that one time, I really don't care since I put a screen on top of my furnace and slip the scrap in, under the screen. If the 'witch' visits, the screen catches the effluent.
I also take my unwashed scrap and literally drop it thru the stream of air from a furnace blower. The light stuff - shotgun wads, paper, weeds, etc - blow away and the lead drops straight down into a bucket. Then I wash the dirt off in the trailer.

[MilesTeg]

Ok I think I have a solid plan for reclaiming of the lead. Equipment will be gathered this weekend and I will probably try to clean out the big chunks next weekend or possible when I have off of work for the baby.

The next question is smelting/cleaning the scrap. I'm thinking Dutch oven on a turkey fryer to start out. I'm thinking about buying the Dutch oven from harbor freight. Is this a good buy? I can't find a thrift store around here so I'm stuck with retail. Oh and no garage sales right now the wife can't walk that far now. Anyone know any good prices on turkey fryers considering the regulator on mine has dry rotted. The last big question is what tools should I use for the smelting? i.e. Ladles spoons extra tools that I might not know I need. Where would be a good place to buy these tools and how heavy duty do they need to be?

[country gent]

The dutch oven will be fine. One thing to remeber is to start low on the heat and work up warming the cast iron to tem over 15-20 mins. Cast iron dosnt do fast expansion real well it would rather crack. The turkey frier stand and its burner will work. While at harbor frieght look at weed burners a cheap one puts out way more heat ( some are 500,000 btus) and can really speed up large batches. a long handles spoon and slotted spoon can be very handy for stiring and fluxing. I also at times use a s[patula for stirring a bigger pot. Look at cheap barbeque utensils. solid ussually stainless steel and solid. The biggest is your personal saftey gear. Saftey glasses or a face shield, heavy leather shoes, heavy denim pants, long sleeved shirt and apron. Any spatters seem to find bare skin and stick to it not roll off. Once stuck it stays there burning until physically removed. Gea good day and work out side the first few times to make sure everything is right and up to par. A spill in the yard or driveway isnt near the issue as in the garage or patio deck is.

[lightman]

Country Gent pretty well has you covered. Just make sure your turkey fryer stand is sturdy enough to hold the weight. You will need some type of ladle to scoop up the melted lead and you will need a landing zone to put your ingot molds on. I use a piece of 1/2 by 6in plate and it acts a little as a heat sink. They will get hotter than you think, so don't put them on anything that may be damaged. I have a sheet of plywood that I set my melter on to keep any spilled lead off the concrete floor.

While you are new at this and just getting started, think about a way to permanently mark your ingots. There are a few recent threads about this, including one that I started. They have a way of getting moved around, and sooner or later you will be getting other alloys.

Safety wise, think natural fiber clothing vs hi-tech synthetic stuff. I wear boots and jeans, pant legs outside the boots, long sleeve denim shirt, leather work gloves and wrap around safety glasses. This is probably the minimum that a person should wear. I keep an ice chest near by with a towel, just in case I have to cool off a burn, and I have been known to sip on a beer in between melts!:?

The HF Dutch oven is a favorite of many but give some thoughts to having an old propane tank cut in half. Maybe the shop guys at your work place can help you out there. And ingot molds, I suggest several. After a few cycles of filling and dumping you will be waiting longer and longer for them to cool. While you are waiting you are burning propane and your lead is probably getting hotter.

Don't forget about flux. Saw dust followed by some type of wax is a favorite. There are a few threads about fluxing that may be helpful. You will also need a container to land the junk that you skim off the top. If you want to go to the trouble, a few members save the bullet jackets and sell them as scrap copper or brass. This can put a little cash back into the casting fund!

This can be pretty hard and hot work. Run a flow chart through your head before you start and plan your set-up to have as little walking or bending as possible. A shooting buddy to help can make it a more enjoyable job. Good Luck, and post a few pictures. We like pictures!

[Cord]

Lots of good suggestions here.

But I think it would be wise to make a trial run on a decent sized sample.
Then you would know what you really have to work with, and plan accordingly.
It would be interesting to see pictures of the material before and after sifting.

I had a project like this offered to me, and big dreams of 20,000 lbs of free range scrap.
But I went in and took a big sample to see how it would work out.

The medium was coarse sawdust, which I knew would work as flux, the cardboard
and target scraps would be flux also. There were big impacted hunks of slugs and
lots of "splashies" scattered throughout the sawdust. I was supposed to take it all out.

But they had used big strips of rubber conveyor belt material to cover the trap openings,
and they hung the cardboard sheets as backing for the targets on the conveyor belt.
The trap material was badly polluted with hunks of rubber and nylon threads
that smoked and stank long after the sawdust and paper stuff had burned off the melt.

I gave up the project after about 750 pounds as not being worth the hassle and time,
and unlike you I am an experienced smelter / caster with all the tools already at hand,
and a strong desire for as much lead as I can get!

The one thing I did buy, and I’m glad I did, was a 3M Half Facepiece Respirator 6000 series
at Home depot for about $45, it is a quality piece of safety equipment rated for lead dust
and I could breathe easily through it. I could not have got it much if any cheaper on evilbay.
It has replaceable cartridges and I'm very happy with it.

Protect your health above all.
.

[TenTea]

You're in luck with regard to propane (and propane accessories [smilie=l:)...supposed to be relatively inexpensive this year.
When you graduate to wood? Well...all bets are off, haha!
Enjoy your new found fun and as my grandpa used to say, "Don't strain your milk!" :bigsmyl2:

[RoGrrr]

Cord
Had you given any thought to floating the crep away with salt water ?
For that much trapping, I would have pursued every avenue available. Then, after it dried in the sun, you could take it back to them for future use.

[Cord]

Good shooters hit the 10 ring and their bullets tend to accumulate in the
same spot, making those big hunks of compacted bullets people talk about.
Have some heavy gloves because they are studded with torn jacket metal
sticking out like cactus spines. Some of my clumps were easily 10 lbs or more.

You could go in there with a few buckets and pull only the biggest hunks
to start with, and not do extensive sifting in the beginning.
This would be a quick route to a lot of scrap early in the project.

Then buy your smelting rig and ingot moulds, melt some up and sell it here
to pay for the other equipment you will need, and eventually even
your moulds and tools could be paid for with the range scrap.

Most Importantly:when the lead hits the backstop plate it shatters, or splatters,
or splashes according to the BHN of the lead. I bet the sand will be
loaded with VERY FINE LEAD DUST that MUST be kept out of your lungs
and off your skin. There will also be pulverized sand dust, don't breathe it either!

There was A LOT of extremely fine lead dust mixed in with the material I had,
I did not realize how much there was until I ran the water from a separator
over my sluice box with a black rubber mat in it. (Yeah, I'm a prospector too.)

I am really glad I bought that respirator!
I used a one-piece coverall and taped the cuffs closed.
My respirator, goggles, a painter's hat, and heavy gloves.
Hot! You'll sweat a lot!

Don't want to hijack the thread, here's the short version:
They don't want anything back - range going to lead-free.
There wasn't 20k lbs in there- false bottom traps.
Basement indoor range- three flights of steps up to the exit door.
I tried direct smelting and a couple of water separation methods too.

[Teddy (punchie)]

We used 1/4 by 1/4 doubled off set to make 1/8 or about, on ripped 2x4 , so 1.5" 24 " square. We had A huge amount some 300 pound in and hour. Now after cleaning and going over every thing. Next time we do it will use and angle iron to place all the lead, junk dirt and stones in. 6-8 ft long 4 " make a wood pile, sloop to dirt bottom and place range findings in start fire ( in back field) walk away and come back to get lead at bottom. We found the there in this indoor range had a huge amount of fines as everyone else gets the bigger easier lead. It was in a 4-5 ton pile. we need to go back out one day with smaller screen and get the other 300-400 pounds.

[MilesTeg]

Thanks again for all the advice. I have my plan and equipment ready to go for this weekend, assuming the baby doesn't come between then and now. Right now I'm going in after the big chunks of lead. I'm thinking about building a 50/50 trommel for a more through cleanout later in the year. I'm plan on taking picture so everyone can get their lead porn. ;) I will probably look at cleaning/smelting the week I have off when the baby comes.

The shop is too busy right now to make me some ingot molds so I will be buying some this weekend. I'm still in the market for a turkey fryer if anyone sees any deals online please let me know. Still trying to find a local heavy duty ladle that can take the weight but no luck so far.

Thanks for the info on the respirator. I will be picking one up soon probably not in time for the first clean out. So I will use a mask and gloves for the first clean out.

[seawolf]

check and see if there is a restaurant supply store near you. long handle spoons and ladles made of stainless steel are great tools. beauty supply stores sell pure bees wax for fluxing cheaper than craft stores. there is a post here about using wooden molds to cast in, wood can be found free.
Mark

[MilesTeg]

I wanted to revive this thread because I have moved forward with this project. I did a pretty lengthy write up on another site this morning but don't have the time to modify it for here so I will post a link to the discussion.

http://nyfirearms.com/forums/ammunition-reloading/100656-starting-cast.html

If this doesn't transfer well I will take the time later in the week to bring it all over to here. Besides getting more lead smelted I will be in the market for my first molds this month so I will be looking for input on that too.

Please discuss and thanks everyone with the help so far it really has helped a lot.

[lightman]

That was an interesting write up. Looking forward to reading about it here, as I can't view the pictures. I think that I mentioned that a 5 gallon bucket full of lead is heavy. You mentioned finding that out!:) Look at cast iron or steel for your ingot molds. Its worth it to me.

How are the new Baby and new Parents?

[runfiverun]

just cut some angle iron into 6-8" lengths and weld them in a V shape.
make sure to put a draft on the edges so the top is wider than the bottom, and use more angle iron on the sides.
you can make 18" long gang molds that will pour out 1.5-2lb pound ingots [times 9-10 at a time] with handles built in from the angle iron.
the triangle shaped ingots stack together tighter so you can put more lead in a smaller area.
a turkey fryer pot holds about 80-100 lbs of melted lead so 4 ingot molds would be about ideal, 3 would work well if you cycle them through and cool them down between pots of alloy.

[MilesTeg]

I was afraid that you wouldn't be able to see the pictures. I will post it over with probably just a cut and paste and reload the pictures to this site. IF I had a home computer and not just my work computer I would do a new write up for here. Can't let the boss man know I'm slacking ;)

As far as the ingot molds I agree with he angle iron the problem is I don't have personal access to a welder. I do have a bunch of welders that work in the shop but I'll have to call a favor in to get them made up. Also I will have to buy the raw material from the owner which requires me to do a material work up. Man this hobby is getting technical and I haven't even cast a bullet yet.

They baby is doing great he was off the growth charts on the 2 month checkup. Me and the wife are doing well being new parents but wishing for more sleep. hopefully he will start sleeping better soon deer season is almost here.

[popper]

DO NOT contaminate your washing machine with lead!!! Wash in a pail outside and leave to dry. Keep those clothes for just mining, smelting and casting if you want.

[Mytmousemalibu]

Might not be a bad idea to get you a Tyvek jumpsuit for mining operations. As mentioned, keep your cloths segregated and out of the machines. Its of upmost importance of keeping the lead away from your youngster. Keep in mind the lead styphnate residue from fired primers when you go shooting or reloading. I also keep a bottle of D-Lead hand cleaner around as it removes heavy metals from your skin. There's also other cleaning products targeted for heavy metal contamination.

[MilesTeg]

Thanks again for the input. I thought I was being safe by washing them separately twice to clear out any lead in the system. I feel pretty terrible about possibly contaminating the washing machine. So from here out they will be washed outside in a bucket.

I will be bringing the posts from the other site over here, please keep in mind it was wrote for a general gun forum not to experienced people like we have here. So some of it might be pretty boring or redundant.

[MilesTeg]

I've been wanting to start this thread for a while and I finally have the time. As the title says I'm throwing my hat into the casting game. This thread is to document what I'm doing for any one else that might be interested and also to get some help when I run into problems.

The first big challenge if found in this venture was finding a steady supply of lead. In the past Clip on Wheel Weights where the go to source of lead for most casters. In NY these wheel weights are no longer allowed to be lead so that source is pretty much dried up. Therefore I went searching for another source of lead. I tried some low scale berm mining at on of the clubs I was a member. Although this produced some lead it was too much work for the small amount that was recovered. If I were to go down that road I would have had to do it at a much larger scale than I wanted to do. This led me to my current source of lead. I secured the indoor trap clean out person at the other club I belong to.

The indoor trap cleanout has been quiet the learning experience. A little information about the trap it's self. It is a slanted steel back stop that uses sand to catch the projectiles. So I decided to build a screen to screen out the sand and capture the lead. I planned this out for a few months and thought I had a good plan. So I took a day off of work and thought I would get in and out rather quickly and gather a few 5 gallon buckets of lead. Boy was I ever wrong. Roughly 3 hours latter I had five 5 gallon buckets full of screened lead and a life lesson of lead is F'n heavy!

Some of the lessons I learned were: A shovel alone was not enough to successfully cleanout the trap, a pry bar and a hammer were also needed. The lead seems to follow the backstop down and kind of coagulate at the base of metal backstop and sand. This dense ball of lead is very hard and almost impossible;e to break out of there, even with a 4' pry bar. I found the best solution was to dig bellow and around the ball of lead to kind of weaken the ball allowing a place for it to flex to when using the pry bar. Once again there was a learn curve here too, because of the angle of the back stop in is almost impossible to get the pry bar in between the backstop and the lead ball. This where the hammer comes into play. This works well but is still a very time consuming and tiring process.

I have now made it to the range twice and am around the half way point in the cleanout. I have a total of twelve 5 gallon buckets of screened lead and a sore back to say I was there. I am hoping to finish the clean out before the snow flies but with the new born in the house time is tight now.

There are a few safety items that should be talked about with doing a project like this. One is breathing in lead dust. This is very hazardous and should be avoided as much as possible. Currently I have been using a dust mask but will be upgrading to a respirator in the near future. Also you have to be careful about lead dust on the clothes. The clothes I wear to the clean out get washed separately from the other clothes and also get washed twice to be certain as much lead as possible is removed from them.


This is a picture just starting day 2 or the trap cleanout.
150533

This picture is try to show lead shelf the forms at the base of the back stop.
150535

Another picture try to show the lead shelf.
150534

What a typical bucket of screed lead looks like. I wont be filling this full anymore because they are too hard to handle estimate around 150-200 lbs.
150536
Any input or questions please feel free to discuss them here.

[MilesTeg]

To go along with the original post the next step in the process is smelting the range scrap into a more usable form. The term "smelting" is highly debated and is really more of a "rendering" process, but the smelting is the most common term that is used in the casting circle.

Smelting accomplishes a few different things for the bullet caster.
1. Cleans the lead. By melting the lead into ingots you can clean the lead into more of a pure form. Because the lead is so heavy the impurities and junk floats to the top and can be skimmed off. Having clean lead going into your casting pot is a big deal because most casting pots are bottom pours and the valves can be temperamental the junk getting in them. Al so you don't want sandy gritty lead going down the bore of your gun and wearing the barrel.

2. By smelting the lead into ingot form, the lead can be more easily handled and stored. It's nice to be able to handle your alloy easily and be able to add it to your casting pot with ease.

3. Blending alloys. This is something I don't have plans to mess with for now but this is the point that people like to add different metals to the lead to accomplish different alloys with different purposes.

Let's discuss the smelting process as a whole before I get into my personal experience with the process. Smelting is a pretty simple process. Basically the goal is to melt the lead so that the impurities and junk floats to the top so that it can be removed. After the main just is removed it is key to flux the lead to help to pull out any farther impurities. This is usually done with sawdust. When the sawdust chars/burns what is left is mostly carbon and this bind with impurities to help draw them out so that they can be skimmed off. Lastly you need to reduce the oxides back into the mix. This is usually done with some sort of wax, rather it be bees wax or regular candle wax.

Ok lets venture into my first experience with smelting. First thing I needed was a turkey fryer to melt the lead with. So I bought the one with the highest BTU's from Runnings. Much to my disappointment the stand for the turkey fryer wasn't as strong as I liked, the legs started to give away when I sat on it. I know what an official test but I wanted to be sure of it's integrity before I had a bunch of molten lead on it. So I went to my fathers house and grabbed I old turkey fryer that no longer had a regulator and swapped out the burner and regulator to have a working smelter. Next thing I needed was a pot to smelt in. I got a cast iron Dutch oven from Harbor Freight for $20. Next thing I needed was the utensils to work with molten lead. I bought a fish fry strainer to better skim the jackets off of the lead. This ended up being useless, because there was next no jackets left from the impact of the bullet to the backstop. I also grabbed a SS spoon this holes in it, this ended up being my most used tool. I also grabbed 2 ladles one large one and one shallow one. I used both of them and am still on the fence on which one I will be using from here on out. My last equipment I bought was some cheap $1.30 muffin tins from Walmart. After using/ destroying one I think I will invest in the proper ingot molds.

So Sunday morning I decide I need to give this a try. Here is what my setup looked like.150539150540150538

First lesson I learned was that it took longer than I expected for the lead to start melting. After the lead started to melt I quickly realized that I had over filled the pot because it made it difficult to stir in solid lead and fish out junk/sand and not pull out lead chunks. The other big obstacle I found was my fluxing media. I was using cedar shaving used for animal bedding. The problem with these were that they stayed in the larger farm and didn't break up well to mix in and bind to the impurities. There fore I switched up and gave it and extra fluxing of candle wax to better clean it up.

Here's what I ended up with. 9 muffin tin ingot. I don't know the weight but rough guess of 2-3lbs a piece.
150541

A lot more junk than I expected. I would guess close to 3/4 of the total volume I started with.
150542

Things I learned or would do differently.
1. First thing is to leave a lead at the bottom of the pot to help speed up the melting process. I felt like this was the longest part of the process getting the first lead to melt.
2.Next thing I'm going to do differently is add smaller amounts of raw scrap to the melt to better handle the junk coming off of the lead and hopefully speeding up of the process. The dross, sand, gunk and impurities were by volume much larger than I had anticipated.
3. Because of the increased volume mentioned above I will have to improve my dross collection system. First is I can't use a 5 gallon bucket as stand for my aluminum slag bucket because the 5galloon bucket is no longer useful if you catch my drift. I will also probably end up buying a few more metal buckets to catch the slag in so I can smelt for a whole day and have enough storage.
4. Fluxing- As mentioned above the cedar shavings didn't work for me so I will have to stop bye a hardware store and get some actual saw dust. Also I think I will have to spend more time skimming the dross off after fluxing because my ingot look a little dirtier than I see other peoples online.
5. Although the muffin tins are cheap and easy to obtain, I don't think I will be using them for much longer. Part of their failure is my fault. I let some of them cool too much and had to beak the tin to get them out. I will be buying the proper molds in the near future but for now I will get buy with these.

Same as my first post feel free to discuss and point out any improvements I should make.

[MilesTeg]

Hopefully I have edited so that everyone can see pictures. Let me know if it didn't work.

[dilly]

I was thinking cast iron muffin tins would work, but the angle iron molds would be better for an operation of your scale. Not just one or two either! The cheapo muffin tins don't work worth a darn. I have wasted time on them too.

[MilesTeg]

I really need to get another smelt under my belt. The ingot mold problem as of right now isn't too worrisome. The reason I say that is I barely got 9 ingots on the first smelt and that was as much as my ladle could grab without pouring directly from the pot. With as much sand and dross that came off of the first batch I think the lead pours are going to be spaced out. I very well could be wrong in my assessment and the first bunch that I smelted down could have been no screened as good as it should have been. But I do agree that I do have to upgrade molds some time in the near future.

[lightman]

It sounds like you did alright for the first time. Now is a good time to examine your operation and look ahead a few years at where you want to be, down the road. If you plan to continue this, you may want to gradually invest in more equipment. I started with a Dutch oven and quickly decided that I wanted something larger. My smelting pot is a valve cover from a railroad tank car. Think propane tank cut in half and on steroids! I also invested in a nice Rowell cast iron bottom pour ladle. This is also a good time to decide on ingot molds. If you can't bribe your shop guys with something (lunch, beer, pizza, ect) go by a local welding shop and talk with them. The smaller the better. Most of them have scrap around that does not have to be accounted for. Also consider just buying 5 or 6 of the Lyman style molds. The Lee is the cheapest but any of them will last a lifetime. I personally don't like muffin or cornbread ingots because they don"t stack so well. But many use them. Also consider a permanent way to mark your ingots before you get so many that you can't catch up (like me). Look for a farm store like Tractor Supply for the bailed bundle of saw dust used in horse stalls. Also look for a piece of expanded metal while you are prowling around welding shops. By now, you have a good idea of the correct size to make a sifter out of.

You have gotten off to a good start. I start my smelting sessions by loading the pot and lighting the fire. I then use the wait time to gather my stuff and to arrange my molds and landing zone. Keep up the good work and keep posting pictures!

[MilesTeg]

I've been thinking about my smelting procedure. Would it be a good practice that once the lead is cleaned up and ready to be poured to shutoff the burner and then pour the ingots? The thought behind this is that while I'm pouring the ingot the pot would be cooling to a safe temperature to add more range scrap. Although I think my scrap is dry I don't have a way to be sure so I was trying err on the side of caution.

As far as where I see my operation going in the next 5 years, honest answer I don't know. I am thinking about going to a bottom pour smelter. I can draw up one in CAD similar to Satan's Little Smelter in next to no time. The problem is that the shop is on overtime and won't have time to make it for quite sometime.

I'm still concerned with the volume of sand, slag, jackets that were removed from the first smelt. The volume was so large it made removing it difficult to ensure everything that I was removing had a chance to melt. Maybe this will become a non issue now that there's a heal in the pot and have more volume to have the scrap interact with.

Thanks again for all the input and tips.

[MilesTeg]

It's time to update this thread again.

Lets start with the bad. As you know I started a similar thread on another website. I got a comment last night that struck a nerve, about lead poisoning and how I'm now poisoned. I knew the risks going into this venture, but like I said for some reason this struck a nerve. As being a new parent my first concern is with my baby's safety. How concerned should I be about this? Should I have him tested? For me I haven't seen a doctor in years but will be picking up one very soon and will be tested.

The good. Yesterday I got my second smelt under my belt. I have to say I'm jealous of the wheel weight people. The lead I'm melting requires so much skimming that it takes me forever to process it. I found that my fluxing procedure went much smoother than before. You could tell in the ingots, they looked much cleaner. I found that the pot handles/ process lead faster and easier the deeper I let it run. I do think that a bottom pour will be in my future. This will allow me to be able to keep adding/skimming while taken lead out the bottom in regular intervals. Which I hope will speed the process up. I also might look into making some sort of sluice box to clean all the sand and debris out before smelting. I don't know if I want to go that route or not. I screened some of the debris that I took off of the pot to see what I had for jackets to possibly sell to the scrappers. From what I could tell this isn't worth it. There seems to be almost no jackets left. The metal back stop must pulverize them into nothing when they hit. Also this is very active 22 range and lead cast shooting range. There is very little commercial ammo being shot there.

Things I need to buy. With my first part of this post has freaked me out enough I'm upgrading my PPE to a respirator and Tyvek suit. I will also buy a 5 gal pail with a lid to keep my contaminated clothes in. Also I will be buying the d-lead soap for showering/ washing hands/ cleaning clothes. I will also need to buy better spoons, ladle to make smelting easier. Still need to figure out my ingot mold situation, but the muffin tins will have to do for now.

Once again thanks everyone for their input. This is a very valuable resource.