I don't get it

[Rio Grande]

Why the insistence on specific cases, wads, shot cups etc.? When the old timers could use x amount of powder and shot, separated by cloth patch, cardboard , wasp nests, newspaper, etc.... and that worked.
Are we 1000 yard benchresters, that everything has to be so precise?

Why is it so simple to load metallic cartridges for high pressured rifled guns, and so involved to load simple shotgun shells for smoothbore guns?

Don't preach to me pressure - I don't want max loads, just Elmer Fudd loads. Why can't I shoot 75% loads?

Why can't I just pick up a random case, drop in a moderate load, over cork and Cheerios box cardboard wads, or various plastic shot cups, and shoot it?

Whose for profit agenda are we following here?

[w5pv]

Haven't loaded for shotgun in years but I pretty much agree with you,I load mostly 45 cal rounds with most of the time the max for my loads being the starting loads. For me it is plenty everything that I have shot with these loads drop like a rock.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

With metallic ammunition and a bullet of the right diameter, it guarantees the sort of grip on the bullet that controls the initial buildup of pressure, and a negligible amount of gases getting past the bullet. Lead shot don't do that, and will clump together if hot gases get amongst them. So we are crucially dependent on the wad.

Muzzle-loaders accommodated the charge and missile in the bore itself, but with modern shotguns it is in a plastic case which fits a chamber originally designed for thicker paper. So the interior of the case is likely to be larger in diameter than the bore. Cork is a bad shotgun wad material, because it tends to compress lengthwise without producing the lateral expansion that would seal the bore and inside of the case.

Friction of lead and steel is likely to produce deformity and thus wider scattering of the outer pellet layers, so a shot sleeve is advantageous. It becomes even more important where legislation requires the use of steel shot.

Anyway, who says what the old timers did worked? I don't doubt birds fell down a lot of the time, and stories got told, but I doubt if the performance of their guns was ever seriously tested. The loading of even nineteenth century commercial shot cartridges certainly was.

[CastingFool]

You don't want to hear about chamber pressure, but that is the reality of it. It's all about the internal volume of the shell, and gas sealing properties of the components. We have no way of measuring chamber pressure, and published loads have been tested. Shotgun shells give you no indication of high chamber pressure like metallic cartridges, except maybe sticky extraction, then you know you're in troublesome territory. Substituting one component such as a primer or a different wad may increase the chamber pressure. Not all published loads are max loads. Also, components have a bearing on your final crimp, which incidentally has a bearing on the pressure. If you reload a shell too many times, the case sort of relaxes and doesn't crimp as tightly as when newer, and affects the velocity of the shot charge.

[bikerbeans]

If you don't use a "book" load as your reference point how do you know you have a 75% load in your shotgun?

BB

[GhostHawk]

It is really the only way that is safe.

If you make more than one change at a time, how can you tell which change made the shotgun barrel open up like a flower so you don't do it again?

So you have to work with constants, this hull, this wad, this powder, this much shot.
Or you can not predict the results.

Black powder was and is a different story. It has its quirks but was much less likely to rip the barrel open.

Smokeless powder is a scary beast. 3-20% Nitroglycern really in a stable mix so it doesn't go BOOM when you drop it.
Same scary energy is still there, waiting to be unleashed. It is ready to BLOW UP at the drop of a hat. A little too much friction, a little too much shot, and suddenly the dragon is released.

It is your choice.

Shoot black powder and fudge around, shoot smokeless and be safe, or summon the dragon.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

To look on the bright side, if your shotgun is of good quality barrel steel to modern dimensions, and unimpaired by deterioration or manufacturing flaws, it is quite difficult to achieve a barrel burst. It takes some distinctly unwise loading practice (not altogether unknown on the internet) to do that. With a conventional load it is unlikely that you would come to harm with the barrel completely sealed more than a few inches in front of the chamber.

What can very easily produce a bulge or burst is the missile running into anything ahead of it in the bore, which slows it enough for a pressure wave to catch up. This is why your load must never - not just seldom, but never - leave a portion of the wad in the bore.

[Petrol & Powder]

I agree with the OP in part and disagree in part.
While it is true that shotguns are relatively simple devices, shotgun shells are a bit more complex than what first meets the eye.
There are some constants between loads such as: overall length of the shell, the weight of the shot charge and the maximum acceptable pressure; it's how we end up there that complicates the matter.
Different powders burn at different rates and acceptable powder charges occupy different volumes inside the casing. Getting the right combination of powder charge, available space for the shot charge and a wad that works (fits) while remaining within the correct window of pressure; is a bit more complicated.
I think is was a bit less complicated with black powder shot shells. X number of drams of FFg plus Y ounces of shot with the appropriate wads to make it fit. It got complicated with the addition of smokeless powder.
I do think that we worry way too much about minor differences when you look at the big picture. While a few types of wads make for poor patterns with some combinations, most wads work just fine with a lot of combinations. And 1 ounce of #8 shot at 1200 fps would be difficult to differentiate from 1 ounce of shot at 1220 fps.

[longbow]

Lots of good replies so far but I will add that modern smokeless powders are available in a wide variety of burn rates so a load that specifies 45 grs. of Blue Dot under a 525 gr. slug you cannot simply substitute 75% of that in Red Dot or 700X or some other much faster powder.

You mention metallic cartridge reloading but where do you see that you can grab any bullet and any powder then simply use 755 of a recommended load. Take a .30-06 and load it up with Bullseye with a powder charge that is 755 or a 4350 charge and see what happens. I don't want to be standing next to you when you do.

If you want simple loading that isn't too picky about hulls, wads, primers then look to the Lee Universal loads and that is basically what they have done:

- multi use loads that can be made up using generic components within reason
- separated straight walled hulls from compression formed hulls
- provided a variety of loads

The main problems loading shotgun hulls is that not only is there a wide variety of powder burn rates as there are for metallic cartridge but the hulls and primers vary a lot too and the variations can take a safe load and turn it into a dangerous load with different components.

As mentioned, if you were dealing with black powder it is a different story. Then yes, you are correct. The only real variations were powder granulation which affects burn rate but ultimate pressure was very limited and I doubt you can actually get enough BP into a shotgun hull along with enough lead to damage a modern gun.

I have loaded up to 4 drams of FFFg into a 12 ga. hull under a 0.690" round ball with no problems.

Longbow

[Moonie]

Think of it this way, in a center fire cartridge a small change in components can create a 2,000-3,000psi change in pressure, that is fine in a cartridge that can handle 30,000-55,000psi, but in a shotgun if you go over about 13,000psi things come apart...

So yea, we are going to talk pressure, it is the ONLY reason for the shotshell rules.

[Moonie]

I've loaded metallic cartridges for 25+ years. Shotshells for less than half, I use documented loads for shotshells, but will not hesitate to work up metallic cartridge loads.

[W.R.Buchanan]

There are about 9000 different recipes for loading 12 ga shot shells. You can make minor changes without harm as long as you can find something similar in a book. There are many books with shot shell loads and 9000 maybe light.

Changing primers will change the pressure, but if you are not loading max loads it is no big deal.

Using different brands of wads is no big deal either as long as the wads you are using are similar to the published Mid Range load.. IE; Claybuster wads are just about the same as WAA12 wads. Remington Nitro hulls are nearly exact same as old style Win AA's and I load both interchangeably on the same machine with no adjustments whatsoever. I have shot thousands at clay targets.

However my safety margin is in the fact that my loads are all light to mid range loads. I carry this philosophy over to all my reloading as I have no use for max loads. Nothing I shoot would ever know the difference if it got shot by a mid range or full power load. I doubt anyone who has done this for any length of time would disagree with me. The main reason I reload ammo is so that I can shoot lighter loads, as factory loads in anything other than .22 RF are more powerful than I need or want.

When you get into shotshell loading go to www.trapshooters .com and read what these guys do. most all of them that shoot a lot and are older load light weight loads.. You components go further and so does your shoulder .

Not a big deal when shooting 10 doves in a day. Big deal when you shoot 250 clays in one day. Recoil is cumulative.

So if you want to shoot max loads maybe you should follow the book EXACTLY.

Randy

[M-Tecs]

Why the insistence on specific cases, wads, shot cups etc.? When the old timers could use x amount of powder and shot, separated by cloth patch, cardboard , wasp nests, newspaper, etc.... and that worked.
Are we 1000 yard benchresters, that everything has to be so precise?

Why is it so simple to load metallic cartridges for high pressured rifled guns, and so involved to load simple shotgun shells for smoothbore guns?

Don't preach to me pressure - I don't want max loads, just Elmer Fudd loads. Why can't I shoot 75% loads?

Why can't I just pick up a random case, drop in a moderate load, over cork and Cheerios box cardboard wads, or various plastic shot cups, and shoot it? Whose for profit agenda are we following here?
The Elmer Fudd analogy is a good one "His aim is to hunt Bugs, but he usually ends up seriously injuring himself and other antagonizing characters" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmer_Fudd

The insistence on specific cases, wads, shot cups etc. ensures that the load performs as specified. The more changes you make the greater risk you run of poor performance or unsafe loads. They may work well or they may not. If they don't poor performance is one thing but blowing stuff up is totally a different matter. I don't really care if you blow yourself up but you may be close to me or someone I care about.

[RMc]

1951 Ideal Loading Manual #38 (http://wethearmed.com/reloading-and-handloading/1951-ideal-loading-manual-38/msg359259/#msg359259)

Quite an interesting journey back to the reloading technology of 63 years ago.

The shotshell section, (starting on page 154), listed​ loading data for Dupont Bulk Smokeless powder in Dram measurment. Shotshell data for familiar powders like RED Dot, was listed in grains.

All hulls shown were paper and roll crimped. Data included instructions on how to fit the fiber and card wading to the hull/load. No specific hull or primer were recommended, with the exception of avoiding High Base (not the same as high brass), hulls when using Bulk powders. The use of high base hulls was recommended with High Density powders like Red Dot to reduced the wad column stack needed to fit the load to low base hulls.

http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/OM/IdealHandbook38.pdf

[Cowboy_Dan]

I'm getting ready to load 16 ga. I have the Lyman #5 manual, and after perusing the load data, I am a bit confused by reference to light or heavy loads. As I see it, it's one set of components, one load. Do the different velocities listed correlate to light versus full house loads, or am I missing something?

[Rio Grande]

Thank you RMc, the Ideal book was great. If shells vary I just have to live with it.
I begin to understand better...,the column height.... the height of charge, wads, and shot...and the crimp to hold it all together snugly. You start at the top of the shell and work back.
If I roll crimp with overshot card I can vary the shell length to help accommodate.
My shells must be uniform in cubic capacity to start with.

I may or may not use pyrodex rs, and may use cardboard/cork wads or shotcups.