Brush Defense Long gun Marlin 45-70 Guide Gun or 870 12ga

[huntersdog]

What long gun do you use for brush or wood defense, against bears, wolves, Moose? 45-70 or 12ga slugs.

[GoodOlBoy]

don't get me wrong ain't nothing wrong with a good 12 gauge slug gun. But 45-70 would be my preference between the two.

GoodOlBoy

[ReloaderFred]

Both are good, but I chose the .45-70, since it gives you a little more range, if needed.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Geezer in NH]

Defense give it a break, a 12ga Brenneke beats at 45/70 hands down, power there you go. At self defense range of 10 yards good luck with the 45'70

[Old Coot]

Assuming that you have sufficient power and penetration to break bones and interrupt the central nervous system (brain, spinal cord) it make more difference where you hit them than what you hit them with. You shoot a bear in the *** or gut with a 50 barrett and all you've got is a more pissed off bear. If you are a good enough point or instinctive shooter with an 870 use it. Second shots (and if you get that you will be lucky) will be much faster, but you have to practice, practice, practice. Brodie

[longbow]

Yup "12ga Brenneke beats at 45/70 hands down" but you have to be using the right 12 ga. slug. A typical Foster slug would not be my choice! You need a Brenneke, Gualandi DGS or similar for smoothbore or something like the Dixie Terminator if rifled (you didn't say). Alternately Dixie Tri-Ball loads should also be very good bear medicine for smoothbore.

With a hard cast dangerous game slug (or Tri-Ball) I would go with the 12 ga. If your choice is soft Foster slugs (standard rifled slug loads) you are way better off with the .45-70... loaded with at least 405 gr. flatpoints.

Either will do it with the right ammunition but my vote goes to the 12 ga. with the right ammunition for close up encounters.
YMMV

Longbow

[huntersdog]

Here's and interesting thread on this subject, plus an Alaskan Brown Bear shot. I'm not looking to fend off Browns.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4689118/all/Slugs_on_Bears

[GoodOlBoy]

#1 the knock-down power of a 45-70 OR a 12 gauge at 10 yards is staggering. to say that EITHER at that range would be ineffective is disingenuous at best.

#2 When walking the woods if I let a hog, a coyote, a wolf, a bear, ANYTHING get to within 10 yards I am already in deep DEEP trouble. The whole point of me carrying a long gun in the woods, when it's not hunting season, is to intercept trouble BEFORE it gets that close.

I won't even get into the long range argument as the 12 gauge is automatically not my gun of choice at long range. I will also add that of the times I have been charged by anything while in the woods more than half of the time a warning shot into the ground in front of their nose is more than enough to put an end to mischief. Honestly registered bulls (IE expensive) are more of a problem in these parts than the wildlife is, and they pay just as much attention to fences as deer do. The single exception for me would be feral hogs who you had best put down, climb a tree, or both. Now that doesn't mean I will let a coyote, wolf, or wildcat "get away" from me if I can help it. Bears I don't have alot of experience with, because in east Texas we rarely see Louisiana Black bears wandering in, and they were protected last time I knew anything about them. Which means I will kill one to save a life (including mine), but otherwise it's time to warn them off and hope they catch the drift on the first shot. The second shot is never a warning.

GoodOlBoy

[Geezer in NH]

Self defense is up close, further away is NOT self defense. Try killing something claiming self defense at100-150 yard prepare to pay a very big fine and possibly jail time because you will be unable to claim self defense and have that stick in court.

I love the Marlin 45-70 bought one when they first made it but I will stick with a 12 ga and Brenekkee slug for up close and personal.

[Blackwater]

I've never shot a bear, but if I ever did, my big concern would be the bullets. Some of the J-bullets for .45/70 particularly, are mighty soft if one heats up the loading any, and thus, may not penetrate well enough on some angles that might present themselves, and in a defensive situation I'll ALWAYS be concerned about penetration. A nice, short gun comes in mighty handy at close range, too, like the Guide Gun. All this would go for hog hunting, too, since they can grow rather large and can be, if shot placement isn't great, quite tough as well. Specifically for bears, I think I'd "invest" in some of the good "premium" and semi-custom bullets like Hawk or maybe Woodleigh. Thank heaven, I've only seen a bear attack on camera, but anyone who's been in the woods much can get a pretty good general idea how short an amount of time you'd have to do whatever you can do, and some bears do NOT just charge to scare you. Too many maulings to think that, and those that count on being lucky often just plain aren't.

In 12-ga., I believe I'd go with one of the solid copper slugs to ensure penetration. A good semi-auto or pump, or even a double would have lots to recommend them, but I'd be very sure it had the right dimensions of length, drop, etc. so that it mounted really well and very consistently. FWIW?

[JSnover]

At that distance I'd go with the shorter/lighter of the two to get on target Right NOW. Either would work. After my nerves settled I could wonder what would have happened if I had brought the other gun.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I will also clarify my12 guage preference. I would load a WW round ball and not depend on a hollow factory slug. I did some tests years ago having found out a standard factory slug would not penetrate the upper neck armor of large crocodiles at 5 feet. Tests showed a round ball will out penetrate a standard slug by about 3 times... In a survival role I want all the smashing penetration I can get. A caliber .735 or .685 RB at 1500 fps is going to produce far more "wack" on target. Granted I will only have 50 yards of good accuracy but if the critter is more than 50 yards I think it is not yet a threat. Should it decided to charge then I am confident my RB loads will be up to the task.
Mike in Peru

[lancem]

Don't have to worry much about bears here, though there are some, but I was thinking about the math. I believe I read a black bear, or probably any of them can hit 30 MPH, that's 44 FPS. And from what I've seen they get up to speed real fast. At 50 yards if the bear is at full charge you have 3.4 seconds to react and put him down. Any of you thinking of this scenario at 10 yards, well I think you're dead men no matter what you are carrying.

[starmac]

I think either will do any defensive task, I carry a 45/70, not because it is any better than a 12 gauge, but I shoot a lever action much more than I do a pump. God forbid I ever have to deal with a mad griz at any range we can legally call self defense even stretched a mite, I would be more comfortable with the 45/70 coming into position and getting a shot off than I would a shotgun.

[Keyston44]

At self defense range I would use my 12 gauge over my 45-70. Because my 12 gauge hold 7 rounds and my 45-70 Guide Gun only holds 4.

Key

[dkf]

I'll pass on both and go with a .458socom AR. Preferably loaded with some hardcast or brass solids.

[GoodOlBoy]

The argument that self defense only happens up close is crazy. If you have a critter charging you from 50 to 100 yards out and a warning shot doesn't deter them you are well within your rights to DEFEND YOURSELF by shooting it. You know why? Because unless you are Jesse Owens or his offspring you ain't outrunning a charging NOTHING, and MOST of the critters listed can close that distance before you can do much more than dirty a set of drawers and chamber a second round.

GoodOlBoy

[huntersdog]

Or having to go into the bush to kill a wounded animal, I think in that case a 45-70 would be better if the critter gets up an keep moving, the 45-70 has some range.

[Artful]

I would use my 870 over my Marlin 45-70, - holds more rounds, has bigger diameter & heavier projectile, I can operate the slide faster then the lever (YMMV), Holds more rounds on tap and it's easier to load (few years of 3 gun game under my belt with the 870). Defensive means your reacting to something that on the offensive already, not going to be at 10 yards may be further but I've hit man size targets at over 200 yds with 870 w/ slugs and I feel confident it would be my best defensive choice.

[TXGunNut]

Either, as long as you do some up close & personal drills with it and are comfortable with it and your loads. I'm very familiar and comfortable with a good riot gun but I'm also pretty quick with my Guide Gun and feel very confident in my ammo. Then again we have very few bears here in TX, a wolf or moose would be an almost impossible encounter here in TX. My few trips into bear and big cat country were hiking trips with big bore handguns because I didn't want to attract attention with (or carry) a long gun.

[jmort]

I will take a Tri-Ball 12 gauge load. Three .60" caliber hard cast balls, around 1000 grains at 1,200 fps. Crazy stopping power. Consider that 00 buckshot goes around 8" in wet newspaper and the Tri-Ball goes around 29"

[akmac]

My preference is a Remington 870 fully loaded with Brenneke slugs only because it is a gun I have used and hunted with since I was a youngster and trained with as an adult. I have DLP'd (defense of life/property) 6 brown bears on the Kenai with an 870 loaded with Brenneke slugs. The farthest distance was 30 yards the closest was 10 feet. Most of the bears died within seconds. The close one was in a full charge and the shot went in the eye and out the back of the skull. Instant lights out. I jumped aside and then placed an immediate second shot through the neck at the skull junction. Neither slug was recovered, both were complete pass throughs. I have also shot over 100 moose with an 870 at very close range, sometimes under 2 feet away. Tough critters, sometimes a buckshot load at 2 feet won't give an instant kill on a head shot but a Brenneke usually does the job well. I am a municipal police officer in a community that sees on average 30 moose/car collision per year and I have been doing this for over 22 years, hence my experience.

[bearcove]

Pick what you want. I have 10 guns for that situation and it would not be the same day to day. Life is not a survey of what is best, then conform, for me.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

A 45-70 bullet might expand, but my 12gauge Lyman Sabot Shocker Slug ain't gonna shrink...

My extended magazine 1100 holds nine and one up the pipe.

That = boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Fast as you can count to ten...

[nicodiesel]

i would go with the 12 ga. plus if you are far in the bush and if you are wounded or lost, the shotgun can be use to kill birds , squirels or other to eat and survive.

[Lonegun1894]

I voted .45-70 due to the range advantage, but would be comfortable/confident with either my Marlin 1895 or my Mossberg 500/590 12ga.

[Ramjet-SS]

I'll pass on both and go with a .458socom AR. Preferably loaded with some hardcast or brass solids.


Absolutely fully agree but any of the 250-325 grain FTX or even the 300 grain HP and or Hard cast 350 WFN. But make mine an SBR 458 SOCOM

[DR Owl Creek]

The new issue of Handloader Magazine, No 297, for August-September 2015 has an article entitled "Big Punch for the .45-70, A Second Look at 'Bear' Loads", Pages 52-57, by John Haviland. Haviland tested a number of different "bear" loads in a Marlin 1895G Guide Gun. For the penetration tests, he used bales of water-soaked, hard-cover books placed at 25 yards to catch the various bullets.

Here are some highlights from Page 54:

"The Remington 405 grain soft-points hit the bundles plodding along, yet the bullets folded back about half their lengths and ripped a big hole through the paper. Plain lead bullets of that weigh with a muzzle velocity of 1,100 to 1,200 fps have been killing large game for well over a century.

... [the] Cutting Edge 295 grain Lever+Raptor bullets tore 2 inch wide holes the first 4 inches through the books. Sheared petals started to appear a few inches in along the bullet's path. The holes shrank to about an in in width until the blunt shank of the bullets stopped after 14 inches.

Somewhere along it's path, the nose petals of the Barnes 300 grain TSX FN expanded to nearly 1.50 inches wide. That must have occurred right after impact, because the bullets shredded a nasty hole from the start and kept that diameter hole nearly until they stopped. Other than shedding a couple of petals, the bullets remained whole. [total penetration 13.5 inches]

Alaska Bullet Works Kodiak bullets [350 grains] are my choice for a bear stopper fired from a 45-70. Several times I have shot these bullets into wet paper, and each time they tore gaping holes 7 inches wide, penetrated 10 to 13 inches. The lead cores remained adhered to the jackets, and one recovered bullet had an expanded diameter slightly over an inch.

RCBS cast bullets [405 grains] were close behind the Kodiak in impressive damage. I could wiggle four fingers in the holes they blew in the first 5 inches of the paper. They stopped after plowing 11.5 inches and lost a bit more than half their original weight. ..."

There's a lot more too, but what more do you need to know?

Dave

[Blackwater]

Some good comments here on both sides of the issue. Only thing I'd add here is that I think I'd go with a small, light, compact red dot rather than a scope on it. Just quicer, ESPECIALLY in low light when these things seem a bit more likely to occur. FWIW?

[OverMax]

IMHO: Shotgun has always been the better weapon systems for close range shooting applications. Verses a 45/70~really? Especially so for the 870. Its just more versatile period. A rifle is simply a rifle. A shotgun can be whatever you want it to be. (Slug gun or shot shell) Bear do not like slugs nor Buck shot. That's the simple truth.

[Cmm_3940]

I chose 12ga slug simply because I have one. The best defensive weapon is the one that's readily available.

[Lonegun1894]

I think the sights don't matter a bit at these kinds of extreme close ranges. I mean, this is one of those things you practice snapping up your weapon on target and making a quick accurate shot, kind of like hip shooting a handgun. I mean, part of what I was taught young was that at in home defensive ranges (or other VERY close and VERY fast shooting, like this) you don't wait to find the sights and align them, you look over the sights of a long gun and put lead on target. I mean, if someone kicks in my front door right now, does it really matter if I hit the top button on their shirt or hit an inch in any direction from it? Same thing goes for the bear. I think it is more important to find a weapon that fits you and that you like and are comfortable with so you actually practice with it so it is an extension of you when you need it, than trying to figure out what all details you need. Either the 12ga or the .45-70 has enough power for the job, so whichever you like best configured however you like works. I mean, you could completely remove any sighting system from either weapon and they would both still work fine out to at least 25 yards at least with the occasional practice session.

[Blackwater]

All I can add in is that my cousin shot a 600+ lb. hog in the Savannah River Swamp, and it was written up in the Sunday edition of the Savannah Morning News newspaper with a full back page plus a little carry over content, and it was hit 19 times with a variety of buckshot, slugs and finally my cousin's .30-06. The shoulder plate stopped the buckshot dead, and it didn't penetrate at all. The slugs (conventional Foster type) didn't do much better, and the shoulder plate stopped them enough it might have survived the wounds. Only the '06 penetrated sufficiently to stop it, and it took a 2nd and final shot to kill it. Once it got shot a few times, apparently its pig adrenaline kicked in, and it was like trying to take down a tank!

I have no problem with the shotgun, but I'd be CERTAIN that they TYPE of slugs I was using would offer plenty of penetration, and this is probably where those newfangled solid copper slugs might really come into their own. Bears don't have that gristle plate on their shoulders like hogs can, especially those swamp run types, but I'd still be CERTAIN I had plenty of penetration, and this is coming from a guy who likes expansion on deer. Things that can bite back get "special treatment" in my lil' baliwick! Just a FWIW.

[Bubba w/a 45/70]

I pick my 45/70, simply because I know exactly what I can do with it, how it shoots, and my experiences period.

[Ramjet-SS]

Some good comments here on both sides of the issue. Only thing I'd add here is that I think I'd go with a small, light, compact red dot rather than a scope on it. Just quicer, ESPECIALLY in low light when these things seem a bit more likely to occur. FWIW?

Yea Trijicon RMR test can run with and without batteries.

[lobogunleather]

A one ounce rifled slug weighs 437.5 grains and is about .70 caliber. Typical loads in the .45-70 are 405 grains and up, and .45 caliber. Both are very formidable, but only when they hit the intended target.

During my law enforcement career I was required to qualify regularly with the shotgun, almost always a Remington 870 with 20" barrel. When shooting slugs at silhouette targets at ranges from 25 to 100 yards it becomes readily apparent that there is a huge trajectory path to be dealt with. At ranges up to 50 yards or so the slug's point of impact was always high compared to point of aim, about 1 foot high at 25 yards and still 6-8" high at 50 yards. My approach was to aim at the pelvis out to 50 yards, and at the shoulder level at 100 yards. On a man-size silhouette that means a difference of about 1-1/2 feet vertically; not what I would call real precision shooting.

It takes a lot of practice, and regular practice to maintain the proficiency needed to place shots with any degree of accuracy, even at relatively close ranges. Adding in the adrenaline overload in a close range defensive scenario involving a very large carnivorous animal is likely to add to the difficulty.

What I am saying is that whichever is chosen (shotgun or large bore rifle) it will require a lot of range time to build the familiarity and experience to handle it effectively.

[Norske]

Ballistic Products of Corcoran, MN sells a 1 1/8 ounce 12 gauge slug. Methinks that will hurt on both ends of the shotgun.

[AllanD]

While I own both a Marlin 1895 and TWO rifled shotguns(a Mossberg500 with a rifled barrel and Iron signts and a Remington 870 with a Hastings rifled barrel wearing an aimpoint2000 red-dot scope) my using either for defense against any large presumably pissed-off critter would be more related to ammo on-hand than anything else.


With either of the 12ga rifled guns a small diameter saboted round like the federal premium load or the Old BRI sabot round would give a warm feeling, the 45-70 with my typical hunting loads (Some sort of jacketed 300gr Hollow point) would not make me confident, a 400gr Barnes Original or a cast soft lead 405gr loaded Hot? different story

Let me put it this way I would not want to be standing behind a big brownie if my Twin (if I had one) was shooting at the bear with my hotter 400gr handloads...

The only time I took the big Marlin hunting I saw nothing all day, but when I was walking out I spooked up a doe at about 15 yards, she startled me, but not enough to keep me from getting a shot off... that doe zigged and zagged and that one shot fully penetrated a maple tree 20yards out fully penetrated that doe end to end and after exiting her fully penetrated a hickory tree and after that lost itself in a third tree... so as I figure it the bullet penetrated 10" of maple then 30" of deer, then another 10" of hickory, then another 10" deep in a third tree...

I say again I would not want to use a big bear as a shield if someone were lobbing those bullets at me...

That all being said, the federal premium sabot load uses a 480gr 470cal copper jacketed sabot slug which
I expect to perform as well on an big animal that can kick, scratch or bite...

and as a last point, unless a big bear is jet propelled, If I have a my Remingon 870 with a full tube and the six slugs I put into the critter don't make it calm and peaceful, I leave any witnesses wondering how anything survived... I am not ashamed to say I'm not that good with a lever gun, but with a pump-gun I can honestly say "I'm a damned artist"... and I will likely find myself standing over a dead bear with a pile of empty shells at my feet.

Long ago I took up trap shooting and took to heart what someone told me...
"Practice, practice. practice... Oh and $10,000 worth of ammo might not be a bad idea..."

I immediately got into reloading and burned my way through 1000-1500 reloads a week for the next
year....

[Lead Fred]

A 12 gauge slug at 10 FEET is 53 on the TKO scale.

My dino killer 45/70 rounds at 100 YARDS is 45 on the TKO scale.

Dont lay no boogie woogie on the king of rock & roll

[luvtn]

The National Park Service in Alaska issues 870's to visiting archeologists. Buckshot first round followed by Breneke slugs. In Barrow, Ak, the Inupiat wildlife officers use 12 ga rubber bullets to drive the polar bear out of town. When that fails they switch to Breneke slugs. I voted for the 12 ga.
luvtn

[MBTcustom]

Either the 45-70 or the slug gun. If the slug gun was semi automatic, that would be my choice.
The third firearm that I consider the peak of this trifecta of swinageddon and precision pork poppers is M1A Scout. I do not shoot cast in it, I have it loaded with jacketed, and it is the last word when you have to shoot something that wants you dead.

[Anschutz]

My vote is based on what I actually have. I have a Marlin Guide Gun for 45-70 and a Browning BPS 3-1/2" 12ga. I choose the Guide Gun because the total length is over a foot shorter (28" barrel on 12). My true choice would be something like a 450 Bushmaster, 50 Beowulf, or 458 SOCOM in an AR platform. I have never shot any of these but I know I can put more rounds on target with a semi auto rifle than a pump shotgun or a levergun. If it jams, it was just my time to go.

[OnHoPr]

I'd have to go with the 12 ga slug just from the ballistics point of view and the configuration of the weapon from my point of view. Projectiles for the 12 ga range from .50 cal to .73 cal. Lightfields slugs can range from 550 gr to 600 gr with MEs ranging from 3600 flbs to 4750 flbs, well over that of the 45/70. That's more than a 375 H&H mag. Reloading the 12 ga with WWWQ Lees, Lymans, any full bore slug or 50 cal/sabot combo pushing over 1600 fps would be larger bore and deep penetrating. I have loaded WWWQ Lees to 2000 fps and that's a whole lot of whompum (at the shoulder too) with no deformation hitting moist sand. Depending on the actual load, there could be a recoil back on target time issue with either. As for action contemplation, the pump or auto for the shotgun depending on your nerves or cohonies. A well known dependable clean auto would be better I think for speed and to help with recoil. The lever maybe more dependable after the first shot if your thumb didn't slip off the hammer at first. Though with full house loads the speed might not be as fast even with the ecksperienced lever man with the follow up shots. If the 12 ga is fast enough for grouse and timberdoodles in the thick stuff or for ducks flying + 60 mph, it should be fine for the handling requirements. Most shotguns are lighter weight now with hollow butt stocks for carrying the but wipe for after such an ecksperience. With wolves there really isn't much of an issue, their just 100 lb critters. With moose I would use a lariat and go for a ride after the reins were adjusted. LOLBS

[starmac]

LMAO, something tells me you have never stood nose to nose with a peod moose. I can tell you it does get tense with nothing but a pocket knife in your hand. lol

[Anschutz]

LMAO, something tells me you have never stood nose to nose with a peod moose. I can tell you it does get tense with nothing but a pocket knife in your hand. lol
Had something like that happen with a Blackie in North Georgia. Walked out on the trail, my dad had the dog run ahead and called him back when the bear went around the turn. Then about 200 yards up we were walking by a bush and the bear had been hiding and waiting. The dog just jumped up on his hind legs to make sure it cleared out and we high talked it to the truck. The dog, two men, and a pocket knife wasn't enough to make me comfortable. Being able to out run dad to his. 45 would though.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

while I don't have a marlin 45-70 I do have a marlin 30-30 and I like it a lot but I hate it in the rain because I know I am going to need to break it all down and clean it when I get home , and that takes time and tools

my REM870 or M500 I can have all broke down , dried and oiled before I would have the screws out of the marlin

I have also never have had a screw back out on a 870 or 500 , but I sure have on the marlin and jammed it right up

when you say defense I want the simplest thing that will let me put rounds on target fast and I know it will be carried all over and in harsh conditions so cleaning , maintenance and cost are going to be considerations.

[Ramjet-SS]

while I don't have a marlin 45-70 I do have a marlin 30-30 and I like it a lot but I hate it in the rain because I know I am going to need to break it all down and clean it when I get home , and that takes time and tools

my REM870 or M500 I can have all broke down , dried and oiled before I would have the screws out of the marlin

I have also never have had a screw back out on a 870 or 500 , but I sure have on the marlin and jammed it right up

when you say defense I want the simplest thing that will let me put rounds on target fast and I know it will be carried all over and in harsh conditions so cleaning , maintenance and cost are going to be considerations.

You just described a Big Bore double rifle. SxS or O/U

[GabbyM]

A full rifled bore 20 gage pump shotgun using round ball hand loads.

[dverna]

I recall a long time ago reading an article written by Jack O'Conner. He reported that if a tiger was wounded and they had to go after it the weapon of choice was a 12 ga with buckshot. Of course things have changed in the 50 or so years since that was written. And North America is not India.

Yet, for up close and personal, the 12 ga is my weapon of choice. Any good pump (870 or Mossy 500) is very reliable and repeat shots are quick. It will not have the range or accuracy of a rifle but those attributes seem secondary to the intended purpose. And if your hit a small branch in your moment of haste, a slug may fair better than a rifle bullet. All the more the reason to use buckshot -- maybe??? But I do not live where big bears roam....only the smaller and less aggressive black...who are also easier to kill.

Not many of us will ever face a big Alaskan bear. We have no experience to draw upon. It is informative to read what people who face them on a regular basis use. Although even the opinions of those people need to be tempered by questions such as "Are they using what they have?". "Are they using what they can afford?"

[ChristopherO]

I've shot enough deer with 12 gauge slugs to see them run away, dead on their feet, go quite a distance. I wouldn't want a dead on his feet mad grizzly run at me with murderous intent and just enough energy and piss to eviscerate me. Think I would rather have a HOT 4570 over a standard 12 gauge slug.

[Suo Gan]

The multiple simultaneous hits is what does the trick.

[jonp]

12g. I want a big hole

[longbow]

Most standard 12 ga. Foster slugs would be a poor choice... more likely all standard 12 ga. Foster slugs would be a poor choice.

A hard cast round ball or dangerous game slug should do the trick with smoothbore and with rifled gun well, slugs like Dixie Terminators should really do the trick. Large, heavy and hard cast is going to penetrate and break stuff on the way through.

I have no objections to a .45-70 but I think an appropriately loaded 12 ga. would be more effective at close range. My opinion only not having had to test the options.

Longbow

[shdwlkr]

45-70
bears depending on which type black 300 grain gizzly 425 grain
wolves 300-350 grain
Moose 400-425 grain

[DonMountain]

45-70 is way more effective than a 12 gauge slug gun. More energy, higher velocity, and more ammo fits in typical 45-70 lever action rifles. The 12 gauge only operates at 12,000 psi whereas the 45-70 is more than twice that. I don't want to wound a bear. I want to shoot through a bear.

[pls1911]

Defense and brush in the same comment .... Hmmm... someplace you don't want to be, but assume you're prepared for the event. .
I'd take a six shot 12 gauge riot gun pump with buckshot. I love my guide guns, but consider the following:

At 10 yards you want a kill or deterrent....anything that will turn the adversary and give you space and time to withdraw safely..
At 10-20 yards, a buckshot headache will kill, confuse, blind, or make something disinterested real fast. and all six rounds can be fired in about three seconds with practice, but one or two should be plenty for the purpose.

Home cast buckshot in a 12 gauge 2.75 shell will vaporize or pretty well scatter a 20 pound armadillo at 20 feet.... my pattern is about 5" from an 18" cylinder bore barrel, and should do about the same damage to bear or moose. This load simply takes a doe's head off at 20 feet with a base of skull hit.

I submit that a deterrent shot in haste would be more easily made with a shot gun.

Still doubt the effect of 12 gauge? Google 12 gauge shotgun wound ballistics...Be warned, there are some pretty gruesome photos...

[AllanD]

If wolves, cougar or feral hogs are the threat they can be dealt with by a 30-30 lever gun but wolves are quick and a smoothbore 12ga and buckshot is likely best.

Cougar? if a cougar is after you and considering you as his next meal, providing a napkin and dental floss is likely the best you can do because none of gods creatures are better at sneaking around than a cat, I.E. you'll never see it coming.

[Clay M]

I have owned and used a .45/70 lever gun since I was fifteen. I am use to that rifle.
For me, I would rather have the .45/70. My neighbor is a shotgun expert, so I am sure he would choose
the 12 gauge.
Which ever one works best for you is the one I would use.

If you are not use to either then perhaps you should stay home.;)

[monge]

I have used both for hunting and got to say 45-70 kills better after casting and reloading my own ammo nothing I can buy as far as slugs and 45-70 rounds out performs my reloads, 12ga looses its punch fast!

[starmac]

From what I have read buckshot has not stood up to dealing with grizzlys, no personal experience myself.
Most that use a shotgun here will ONLY use brenneke (spelling) slugs, and I read that a few brown shirts have had way less than stellar performance with them, so have reverted back to rifles when haveing to deal with a trouble bear.
From what I have read the big bear guides have differences in what to use too, but I've not heard of any carrying a shotgun. Some like 458, 416's others prefer something flatter shooting, claiming when they have to shoot a wounded bear, it is usually on the run and they want the distance to nail it before it can reach cover.
One guide I have read about didn't even carry anything, just took his clients gun when he needed too. (not exactly how that works)
I know a few that keeps a 45/70 in camp for a camp protection gun, but everybody has there own opinion, even the guys that deal with them regularly.

[Clay M]

I had a friend that lived in Alaska, and he used a .450 Alaskan. A model 71 win converted.
He had killed several bear with it and had good luck.
I like the .458 win mag.. It delivers. So if I lived in Alaska , that is what I would carry.

My cousin lives in Montana,and his ranch is in the heart of grizzly country.
He carries a S&W .500 in a shoulder holster..

I have my doubts if he is proficient with that weapon..;)

He isn't a shooter, a reloaded or a caster.. just a millionaire..:dung_hits_fan:

[starmac]

When I read a book about trapping in Alaska, written by an old time trapper. In his list of the things you needed to live in the bush with grizzlys was a good rifle in case you had bear trouble, he recommended a model 99 savage in 300 savage.

[Clay M]

I don't believe I would want to shoot a Teddy Bear with a .300 Savage.
I will leave that experience for someone else.

I understand bear have been killed with a .22LR, but I am not volunteering for the project.

[Ramjet-SS]

"Fear the man who only owns one rifle, for surely he knows how to use it."

[Clay M]

"Fear the man who only owns one rifle, for surely he knows how to use it."

Or he may just be broke .

[Lonegun1894]

Or stationed a long way from home and hunting everything with one gun like I used to til I got a chance to go home and bring back a couple guns more suited to what I was needing.

[starmac]

I would say most people really only have a need for one rifle, plus a 22.
Most of us have several, but need is not the reason. lol
I have known lots of successful hunters that owned the same rifle all their adult life, with never thinking they needed another one, money had nothing to do with it.

[Lonegun1894]

Funny you should say that, Starmac. Back in those days, I was 22 and using a .50 caplock muzzle loader for everything with a round ball. First chance I had when I went home on leave, I brought back a 1911 for carry, a .22 LR Stevens 121A single-shot rifle, a 12ga NEF single-shot shotgun, and a Winchester 94 in .30-30. I can't say I didn't buy others when money allowed, but those were all I really needed, and that .22 put more meat on the table than the rest of those combined back in those days.

[Three44s]

When I read a book about trapping in Alaska, written by an old time trapper. In his list of the things you needed to live in the bush with grizzlys was a good rifle in case you had bear trouble, he recommended a model 99 savage in 300 savage.

I am liking my recently acquired "99" in .300 Sav more and more.

While I don't consider that cartridge the optimum for large bears, you can't argue with success ........ the Trapper who wrote his book obviously was successful ........ he walked out of the bush after years there and wrote a book on it. His choice of a rifle with good ergonomics and an obviously cool head overcame an otherwise smaller projectile.

Three 44s

[Clay M]

I would say most people really only have a need for one rifle, plus a 22.
Most of us have several, but need is not the reason. lol
I have known lots of successful hunters that owned the same rifle all their adult life, with never thinking they needed another one, money had nothing to do with it.

I agree. A good .30/06 or .375 H&H would take care of everything.

My grandfather hunted all his life with one rifle and one shotgun. When he wore a shotgun out he would buy another.

He would think it was foolishness to own more..

But just owning one rifle may have very little to do with how well one can use it.
My grandfather was an expert with a shotgun, but never very good with a rifle..
Two different skills.

[dualsport]

Bingo!
defense give it a break, a 12ga brenneke beats at 45/70 hands down, power there you go. At self defense range of 10 yards good luck with the 45'70

[bearcove]

I don't think a 12 ga is better at 10 yards. My Marlin has a Skinner peep. Take out the aperature for close stuff and it is better at 5 feet in my opinion.

More power, I don't know offhand, but a 425-500gr WFN will penetrate deeper and has better sights for close work for me. Put in the aperature and its a 150-200 yard gun.

[bearcove]

Don't remember his name, but a old F&G guy who used to go in the brush and kill problem bears, ie man killers and nuisance bears used a 30-06 with a 165 gr bullet. He killed more bears than anyone I've heard of. Said the '06 put them down nicely. Most important was hitting them in the right spot. His spot was a collection of nerves that I think is located in the back between the shoulder blades. The OP stated he wasn't stopping brownies, but with them or possibly other mad animals the only way to stop them is to break the hip or rear legs, that will put them down. then you can kill them. To me that means penetration, smaller stuff you can just kill.

A friend of mine shot a large bear with a 338 wm and it ran about a mile. It was a heart/lung shot.

One man with one gun he was good with, Pick yours.

[bearcove]

The argument that self defense only happens up close is crazy. If you have a critter charging you from 50 to 100 yards out and a warning shot doesn't deter them you are well within your rights to DEFEND YOURSELF by shooting it. You know why? Because unless you are Jesse Owens or his offspring you ain't outrunning a charging NOTHING, and MOST of the critters listed can close that distance before you can do much more than dirty a set of drawers and chamber a second round.

GoodOlBoy

Very good point! Only self defense bear kill I have seen was like this. A Med size griz was about 100 yards away laid his ears back and charged a guy I was fishing near. He stepped back abit to higher ground, the bear kept coming, he shot a warning shot into the creek and shot the bear on the bank at about 50 ft. One shot marlin 45-70.

[Salmoneye]

Defense give it a break, a 12ga Brenneke beats at 45/70 hands down, power there you go. At self defense range of 10 yards good luck with the 45'70

Lets look at that...

The Brenneke Black Magic 1-3/8oz slug (appx 600gr for rifled or smooth bore):
Velocity 1,500 fps
Energy 3,014 ft/lbs
Momentum 128
TKO 93

Now a couple of .45-70 loads that are 'safe' in a Marlin 1895 (per Hodgdon site):

350gr Hornady Round Nose
Velocity 2,100 fps
Energy 3,426 ft/lbs
Momentum 105
TKO 48

400gr Speer Flat Point
Velocity 1,950 fps
Energy 3,376 ft/lbs
Momentum 111
TKO 51

For max 'energy' the .45-70 wins...

For momentum and Taylor Knock-Out rating, the win goes to the rifled slug...

I say either would serve well in a bear defence situation...

[MBTcustom]

The two guns mentioned are both in my "top 3" most effective. My list goes like so:
M1A
Semi auto shotgun loaded with full diameter lead round balls.
45-70

When it comes to defending my life against an animal that is fast approaching, my order of priority is
A: bring enough gun
B: bring a gun that can spray lead like a hose and do so with usable accuracy.
C: knockdown power

Assuming you will do your level best to empty the gun on the source of your consternation:

The M1A wins because you get 20 rounds of 308 as fast as you can yank the bang switch. I built an M1A for a gentleman a couple years ago in 358 Winchester, and it reliably cycled 285 grain cast bullets. Obviously, this is an absolutely amazing amount of power.

The 12gauge semi auto is the runner up because you get 7 shots, each having a diameter of .730, and each able to punch right through a 8" tree or a large telephone pole (I've done this many times). If you connect the majority of those shots with the problem, then you either managed to get yourself into more trouble than you should have, or you should have used silver rather than lead.

The 45-70 is kind of in between, and it's only last on my list because it's slow cycling (take my opinion of "slow" with a grain of salt, and understand that I can empty an 1895 faster than most people while connecting with what I'm shooting at. It's not that much slower actually especially after Im done working it over, as several members of the forum can attest) and because you often only have 5 shots (however, my Browning 1886 carries 7).

All that being said, I would take any of the above three in a bad situation over almost any other firearm in existence. They are the most powerful implements (in terms of number of shots available and the energy available with each of them, along with the overall weight, feel and handling of the guns themselves taken as a whole) available to the common sportsman.

If you want to know how to load the 12 gauge with round balls, it's very simple. I use a ratted out MEC 650 as a primer seater, and a crimper, and the rest of the loading is done by hand. I use old style WW hulls, Remington primers, Federal S5 wads, SR4756, cream of wheat, and a Lyman .730 RB mold lubed with 45/45/10.
Prime the hulls,
Throw the powder with the Uniflow (just stick the nozzle in the hull and work the lever)
Take the Federal wad and trim off the petals. Insert it in the hull by hand by twisting it as you push it in and seat it with your pinky finger.
With a Lee 1.6cc scoop, throw in the cream of wheat. One level scoop.
Seat the ball with the sprue centered. A dowel rod helps with this.
Run the shell through the crimping stations as you normally would for target shot loads.

I would encourage you to put some of these together (I don't remember the exact powder charge, but I got it off Hodgdon's online data, so it's an easy lookup) and try them at your personal range. See if you can find a tree that they will not shoot through. See how many phone books it takes to stop them (it's gotta be more than 4, I can tell you that). Observe the uncanny accuracy at 50 yards (in my short barreled shotgun it's minute of pop can all day long). Most importantly of all, put a shoot-n-see target up at 30 yards, and do a couple mag dumps as fast as you can pull the trigger and get back on target. I think you may come to the same conclusion that I have.

[BAGTIC]

At close range it doesn't matter how many rounds your gun holds because you'll never be able to fire them all before your attacker is on top of you.

[starmac]

At close range it doesn't matter how many rounds your gun holds because you'll never be able to fire them all before your attacker is on top of you.

Right there is what a lot of folks don't understand.
I have never run across a problem bear, I have walked up to within 10 feet of them laying in the grass before they got up, just luckily they have always gone the other way, if they had decided to eat me, well let's just say I doubt I could have even brought a gun into line in time.

[pmer]

These last two posts have big point that I more closely understand now. A couple weeks ago while pheasant hunting I had coyote zip by me at just a couple feet away. The dog and I were taking a break, he was doing some digging around a tree and I was playing with the phone. The 12 ga. near by leaning on a tree.

We were in a small clearing and a squirrel came out of a thick stand of trees that I was about to go into. I didn't think much about it but a few moments later the yote ran out of the same spot. By the time my brain figured out what was happening and dropping the phone, grabbing the gun off the tree; the coyote ran past us and was gone in the brush. With a pump or a lever AND being ready to shoot I would have got one or two shots and maybe three with a semi auto.

Between the pump or the lever up close I don't think there would be much difference in power. You could have poor boolit choice in either but the pump might be a tick faster for most people.

[SSGOldfart]

Hmmm isn't that why they made the 44to start with?? I'm going to reach for a hand gun long before a shot gun . I voted 45/70 but 10yards your going to shoot clean though most any thing with the 45/70

[Mackay Sagebrush]

I generally would not buy a long gun strictly for such an unlikely event such as animal defense. If it could serve multiple roles, then yes. More likely than not a "camp gun" is going to get used for other things many, many times more than it will be used for killing grizzly or mad moose.

With that in mind, I would opt for a rifle that I can also use during a hunting season. There is nothing wrong with a shotgun, within reasonable distances, but a 45-70 would be a practical tool for the type of terrain that I hunt and camp in.

[ironhead7544]

Either one would be fine with the right ammo.

I saw a study on bear attacks recently. It showed that 75% of the armed people with long guns still that the gun on their shoulder sling when hit by the bear. Best to keep it in hand, it seems. And carry a backup handgun.

[ole 5 hole group]

Long thread but I'll play - One could look at it another way - either one could be as worthless as the other depending upon your situation awareness. Most people just don't realize just how fast a bear is - they can move out at speeds ranging from 30 mph to a top speed of around 40 mph. When we are getting use to numbers in the trillions - numbers like 30 or 40 sound puny. Break those speeds down to feet per second.

30 mph is the equivalent of 44 feet per second and 40 mph is 58 feet per second. That's pretty fast when a big boy is closing on you at a minimum of 32 feet per second as he's getting "up to speed". I think most "charges" occur at 60 feet or less. That bad boy actually hits you at that speed, he doesn't stop and just swat ya - he runs into you and gathers you up as you're being "driven" into the ground. Hitting the turf after that type of collision should keep you "pain-free" for a couple seconds as you regain your senses.;)

Look at it this way - once your senses detect the noise, recognize and evaluate the threat, just how fast are your reflexes? At what speed can you clear your holster or get your long firearm in motion? If you invade his territory and he decides you need an **** kickin for the intrusion, I think you’re going to get one. You have to be really unlucky to die from a bear attack, which is meant to “teach you a lesson” as opposed to a rogue wanting to eat you but you will have a couple permanent reminders for your inattention in the alders or heavy/thick brush while roaming around in well populated big bear country.

I would think a handgun with a lanyard might be your better bet in that type of situation but better yet, just stay out of heavy/thick brush in heavy populated big bear country.

[Ramjet-SS]

458 SOCOM with a tactical sling especially if that 458 SOCOM is an SBR. this setup is way faster than any handgun from a holster well unless you are one of the quick draw guys.

Think of of it gun hanging in front of you at chest height grasp up and on sight within 2 seconds after you identify the threat. Then a flurry of 350 grain hard cast bullets at 1600 FPS.

I would have a 458 SOCOM.

Nice thing is this is all fantasy right now.:popcorn:

[Jpholla]

What guarantee do you have that you will only be attacked by a bear? I would be far more concerned about being confronted by a human with a gun. I would guess there are far more belligerent humans than bears. That's why I always prefer rifles outside of a house. A rifle will kill anything a shotgun or pistol will, at the same range or much farther away. No amount of firepower can make up for not being able to place shots proficiently.

But I have always wondered if the ideal load to stop any animal was about a two ounce load of 9's or ratshot at a moderate velocity. If you fired at the proper range, it could take out both eyes of a charging animal. Even if being blinded didn't stop an animal, all you would have to do is stay out of it's reach...

[flint45]

I shoot much better with my marlin 95 then my 870 slug gun faster and alot more accurate for me.

[Kestrel4k]

I generally would not buy a long gun strictly for such an unlikely event such as animal defense. If it could serve multiple roles, then yes. More likely than not a "camp gun" is going to get used for other things many, many times more than it will be used for killing grizzly or mad moose.

With that in mind, I would opt for a rifle that I can also use during a hunting season. There is nothing wrong with a shotgun, within reasonable distances, but a 45-70 would be a practical tool for the type of terrain that I hunt and camp in.
+1 on the above; the best bear gun is the gun you're using for other duties as well.

[JSnover]

Either would work. A near-miss with a 45-70 is at best a peripheral hit with a shotgun, which will neither improve the bears disposition nor disable it. Whatever you carry -if you get the chance- you need to be fast with the second shot.

[Greg S]

For general kicking around, I'd opt for the 45/70 in any situation. If around camp and had a bear problem, a Benelli M3 with Breneke KOs would get the nod.

[facetious]

The odds of ever having to shoot a bear are slim for me but am going to go with the slug gun. I learned to shoot with a 870 20ga. so it is more natural for me. So when I wanted some thing bigger to keep at home I got a 12ga. 870 and a 18" barrel to go with it . When I retire I hope to get a small RV and it will be the one that I will take a long, plus my .357. With Shot, buckshot and slugs appropriate for where I am at it covers a lot of any things from snakes on up that I mite have to defend from. With slugs It will shoot to point of aim at 50yrd's and that is good for me. I'm not looking to go hunting with it.

Now if I lived some where big bears were a real big threat I think I would try to find a Remington pump gun in 35 whelen and some ten round mag's.

[hpdrifter]

I have owned and used a .45/70 lever gun since I was fifteen. I am use to that rifle.
For me, I would rather have the .45/70. My neighbor is a shotgun expert, so I am sure he would choose
the 12 gauge.
Which ever one works best for you is the one I would use.

If you are not use to either then perhaps you should stay home.;)

Let me know the next time you two get together to hunt; you're what I'd take.

[Crawdaddy]

I always get a kick out of these "which is better" threads. Pick the one you shoot best and use it. If I was proficient with a 30-30 but sucked with a pump gun, Im carrying the 30-30.

What the best gun to win a gunfight? The one you have with you.
What is the best tactic for winning a gun fight? Don't be there when it happens.

BTW I voted 45-70 but wouldn't hesitate to use the other. But then again I wouldn't be carrying either unless I was hunting something else with it. I would have my 500 S&W mag strapped to my side. Yes, I am proficient with it. Yes I can shoot it double action. The 600 grain boolits definitely pack a whollop.

[Ric-san]

Have Botha Teminton 870 and Marlin JM stamped 45-70 guide gun. Would take the Marlin...hope to never have to need it for this though...

[Griff]

Browning 1886. I like a little more steel wrapped around my .45-70 loads.

[Shawlerbrook]

If ever in that situation, I be happy to have either. When I was in Alaska, a lot just carried a 44 mag. revolver, but I would rather have either of the choices you listed.

[fishboy747]

Are you kidding me IMHO it is what you are most comfortable with and will carry. It does not matter what others think as each individual is different as this survey shows. I live in Alaska hike, hunt, fish, snowmachine, and have a cabin off grid. My wife carries a smith mountain gun .44 with 300 grain cor-bon loads I carry a .460 with 335 grain hand loads and have a .12 ga in the cabin so every situation is different. This is just MHO by the way we also shoot all guns for proficiency with the loads that we carry. I have 395 grain loads for the .460 but cannot for the life of me double action it with speed or accuracy.