45-70 w/5744 & 480gr boolit

[pjames32]

I have some cast 480gr (NOE) boolits for my 45-70. I want a mild recoiling load for my Rolling Block. Accurate lists a minimum load for a 460gr boolit of 27.5gr and a 500gr boolit minimum of 25.2gr. My question-has anyone gone lower and what were your results? I have used 25.0gr with my 350gr boolits and with my 405gr. boolits.
Thanks for your input.
PJ

[Don McDowell]

Does the barrel say blackpowder only?
Here's something else you may want to think about before you look up load data for that powder and bullet.
Well we had another rifle blow up at the Quigley yesterday. A guy was shooting a .45-70 Pedersoli with smokeless powder. I don't know the load particulars other then he was using AA-5744.
Doc. Lay was on the seen again taking care of him till the ambulance came.
I have pictures of the rifle but cant post them right now. The action held but the barrel split top and bottom and they found the forearm 50 some feet away.
He had mayor damage to his hand.

[pjames32]

Don-my rifle does not say black powder only. Was the blow up on a black powder only gun?
Thx
PJ

[Don McDowell]

Don't know any more than it was a Pedersoli 74 sharps.

[Lowpower]

Which raises the question and not to infuriate BP folks....

If one shoots low load of smokeless which pushed the bullet out the barrel at 1129 fps, I would think the pressures are down in the 18k psi range. All pressures being equal what are the chances for a blowout in an older rifle?

New kid on the block here shooting big bore, slow moving freight trains out yonder who would really like to know if it's safe or not. I have been shooting 550 gr bullets behind 24.0 gr of H4198 in a very old rifle. Read really really old rifle, here.

It also raises the question the Browning 1885 High Wall in .45-70 has BR recommended on my barrel. The rifle was built in 1997. Will it not handle low pressure loads of H4198?

Thanks
Lp

[Don McDowell]

Real blackpowder in a 45-70 only runs around 15000 CUP.
Look at the barrel on your Browning again, it says Black Powder Only.

[country gent]

Also keep in mind while the smokeless duplication loads of black powder loads may be the same basic pressures they may not be close as to actual pressure curve produced.

[Lowpower]

If you gents don't mind my continuing to ask questions I still have some....
I will look at the barrel again as I could have sworn it said recommended. I'm at work but will check and reply in the morning.
In my .45-70 Browning 1885 I expanding the neck just enough to hand press the bullet into the case. The lube puts tension used to hold the bullet in the case. In fact, I load it approx half way into the case and let the lands push the bullet back into the case only as far as it wants to. Does a crimp effect the actual pressure curve by allowing it build pressure up prior to releasing the bullet from it's grasp?

And now for a sacrilegious question...my original 1859 Sharps .45-100 is the rifle that is shooting those 550 gr bullets behind 24 gr of H4198. I've put a couple of hundred rounds through it using the same method of seating the bullet using just my fingers. Am I tempting fate by doing so? I ask because loading 100 gr of FFG through a 30 inch drop tube to let the powder settle sure puts a heck of a lot more kick into that 11.5 lb rifle than using 24.0 gr of H4198. Which raises the next question... if it is tempting fate how do I load down a charge of FFG to lighten the recoil without effecting accuracy. Right now the 1885 is shooting .5 MOA at 100 yds with 520 gr bullets behind 24 gr H4198 and the Sharps is shooting .750 at 100 yds behind the same charge. The 1885 has a 6x MVA William Malcolm 28" scope on it. The Sharps has a an old Winchester mid-range tang sight and windage adjustable front globe sight w/spirit level.

I continue to hear two sides of BP vs Smokeless arguments concerning safety and I'm having a hard time coming to any conclusion. I have yet to see a rifle blow up using smokeless. Yet, I don't want to be the proverbial first kid on the block to have it happen to me.

I bought some cornmeal to use as a filler. I have no idea where to start at regarding BP. 45 gr then a wad then filler then a wad under the bullet? I heard about a duplex load, like 5 gr of some medium burning smokeless under the main charge of like 45 gr then add the filler? I'm not even sure if there needs to be paper wads between any off it. No one around here does much with BP. They all do smokeless.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Don, I would like to see pics of the rifle if you have them.

Bob aka Lp

[Don McDowell]

Don't have any pics, will have to wait and see if any get sent down..
Smokeless in an original Sharps?? Would check with your homeowners policy before taking that to a public place. Well built rifles, but well over 100 years old.. Steel/iron only lasts for so long.

[country gent]

The one issue with a fine grained filler like cream of wheats, corn meal or grits may be the migration of the filler into the powder charge "diluting it" in a way. A paper wad will prevent this. Like wise a cardboard wad on top protects the soft base of the bullet from the hard grains of the filler. Never just add a filler to an existing load always start over and work up with it. It does in effect add to the weight of the projectile being launched. I personaly perfer Black Powder loads in my rifles just seems more traditional and right to me. Im not saying it cant be done and isnt safe just my personal choice. Its also satisfying to go out with truely ( at least as close as possible with modern components) tradition loads in these old rifles and perform to the same levels as the new fangled stuf. LOL

[rfd]

there was that lady at the quigley years ago who's roller blew ... iirc, that was a smokeless load, too.

nonetheless, it's all speculation until the facts come out.

fwiw, don't know of a pedersoli sharps or roller that's bp only - they are all spec'd for at least some form of smokeless, and aa5744 is a powder designed for such rifles. again, the facts will tell the true tale.

imho, and for more than a few reasons, white powder is just more critical in the loading than black.

[Don McDowell]

Wasn't a roller it was a Ballard, and it was about 3 years ago, and then as now the powder was 5744.

[Red River Rick]

don't know of a pedersoli sharps or roller that's bp only - they are all spec'd for at least some form of smokeless, and aa5744 is a powder designed for such rifles. again, the facts will tell the true tale.

imho, and for more than a few reasons, white powder is just more critical in the loading than black.

You need to take a closer look at some of the newer Pedersoli Sharps rifles..............they all have "Black Powder Cartridge Only" stamped on the bottom of their barrels.

Mine does, and it was made in 2007.

RRR

[Don McDowell]

Don't know the charge weight, but the shooter was apparently one of those that thought a wad on top of 5744 was the proper way to go. The barrel split right down the top and bottom flat, taking the leverspring and mounting block, right out the bottom of the forestock. Case is still in the chamber, looks like it's been opened up like flower petals. Action looks to be fine, but the splits in the barrel sure look to go into the threaded shank.

[Lowpower]

Ya'll are making me want to sell off my Sharps! I don't want a gun I can't shoot.

[Don McDowell]

Why can't you shoot it? Just load it with black, the powder it was built for.

[Lowpower]

Sorry Don, I was thinking of your comment about it being over 100 years old...but you were talking about smokeless not BP. So, it's fine to shoot with BP? Up to 100 gr?

I'm out of work and heading for the house. If it's alright with you I'd like to continue in the AM.

Thanks
Bob

[Don McDowell]

If it's a 2.6, you can get by with a lot less than 100 grs of powder. Especially if it's 1f.. Sleep tight, don't let the bedbugs bite.

[big bore 99]

I've read that 5744 is a high nitro content powder. Wish I could find some locally and have used quite a bit of it. When working up loads, I spoke with an Accurate factory rep and he said never use any kind of wad or filler of any kind with it. It may burn a little dirty, but he said to do a little crimp.

[Don McDowell]

I buy it in the 8lb jugs, but use it mostly in leverguns.

[rfd]

You need to take a closer look at some of the newer Pedersoli Sharps rifles..............they all have "Black Powder Cartridge Only" stamped on the bottom of their barrels.

Mine does, and it was made in 2007.

RRR

hmm, interesting. surely anything is possible. but yer absolutely right for sure - buyer beware!

i have a pedi '74 sharps "silhouette" that i got last year from dixie gun works. it's a one-off variation on their .45-70/.45-90 silhouette model that's in the pedersoli online catalog - 30" barrel in .40-65win, and was made expressly for dixie. unless the "bp only" stamp is under the forestock, i don't see it anywhere on the exposed barrel.

thankfully, all my cf and ml rifles are only fed the holy black these dayze. 8-)

http://i.imgur.com/CiMkd81.jpg

[montana_charlie]

Does the barrel say blackpowder only?
Here's something else you may want to think about before you look up load data for that powder and bullet.
Well we had another rifle blow up at the Quigley yesterday. A guy was shooting a .45-70 Pedersoli with smokeless powder. I don't know the load particulars other then he was using AA-5744.
Doc. Lay was on the seen again taking care of him till the ambulance came.
I have pictures of the rifle but cant post them right now. The action held but the barrel split top and bottom and they found the forearm 50 some feet away.
He had mayor damage to his hand.
Since that's word-for-word what Kurt (Lead Pot) posted on your website, I am sure it is accurate.
But, in the meantime, rdnck has added this ...

"I just got off he phone with a friend of mine who lives in Forsyth and shoots the Quigley match. He is also an EMT who works the match as well. The story going around is that the rifle already had a ringed chamber, and the guy had been advised to not shoot it. Not only that, there is also talk of a double charge. Shoot straight, rdnck."

http://historicshooting.com/mybb/showthread.php?tid=1425

[M-Tecs]

It also raises the question the Browning 1885 High Wall in .45-70 has BR recommended on my barrel. The rifle was built in 1997. Will it not handle low pressure loads of H4198?

Thanks
Lp

From the Browning BPCR owners manual. Smokeless in the 45-70 is GTG. In the 40-65 it is BP only. The claim at the time was no smokeless due to no SAAMI standards for smokeless 40-65.

[M-Tecs]

http://www.texas-mac.com/Firearms_for_sale.html

Shooting smokeless ammo in your Browning or Winchester BPCR:A question I’m asked a lot is, “Can I shoot smokeless ammunition in the
Browning or Winchester BPCRs”? I addressed this issue in more detail in my
book but thought I’d also provide a response here to “head off” additional
questions. Due to liability concerns, I’m not going to make a recommendation
on using smokeless in your BPCR, but I will provide some details to help you
make an educated decision.

All the Browning and Winchester BPCRs with Badger barrels are identical
concerning the source and the material used. All the barrels are made from
high quality SAE 4150 chromemoly steel. The Browning .45-70 rifle barrels
are marked RECOMMENDED FOR BLACK POWDER. The .40-65, .45-90 .
50-90 rifle barrels are marked …BLACK POWDER ONLY. Browning’s
Owner’s Manual clearly states that the .45-70 can also accept the pressures
of commercially loaded smokeless ammunition with jacketed bullets.
Therefore it’s clearly OK to shoot smokeless ammo in the .45-70 BPCR. Of
course the ammunition must meet SAAMI specifications. But the same
factory recommendation does not apply to the Browning .40-65, Browning or
Winchester .45-90 or Winchester .50-90 rifles.

Browning proof-tested the Badger barrels prior to selecting the final barrel
supplier. During the test, pressures were increase to a level sufficient to
liquefy the brass and drive it into the extractor slot. The brass was cleaned
out and the testing continued without barrel failure. Based on the test results,
“calculated” failure pressures were well above any range expected to be
reached with commercial smokeless ammo.

So why can’t smokeless ammo be used in the .40-65, .45-90 or .50-90 rifles?
The barrels are quite thick and heavy, with lots of high quality steel
surrounding the chamber and bore. With the exception of freebore and a
slightly longer chamber, the .45-90 bore is identical to the .45-70. The
chamber and bore dimensions of the .40-65 are smaller than the .45-70,
resulting in additional barrel material surrounding the chamber and bore. The
answer is because Browning and Winchester are SAAMI members, and
SAAMI does not specify chamber dimensions and ammunition standards for
the .40-65, .45-90 or .50-90 cartridges. Consequently, due to liability
concerns, Browning and Winchester made it clear the .40-65, .45-90 and .50-
90 rifles were designed for BLACK POWDER ONLY by clearly stamping the
barrels accordingly. It’s certainly your call, but personally I would have no
concerns about shooting commercially loaded smokeless ammo in one of my
Browning or Winchester Badger barreled BPCRs.

[Knarley]

hmm, interesting. surely anything is possible. but yer absolutely right for sure - buyer beware!

i have a pedi '74 sharps "silhouette" that i got last year from dixie gun works. it's a one-off variation on their .45-70/.45-90 silhouette model that's in the pedersoli online catalog - 30" barrel in .40-65win, and was made expressly for dixie. unless the "bp only" stamp is under the forestock, i don't see it anywhere on the exposed barrel.

thankfully, all my cf and ml rifles are only fed the holy black these dayze. 8-)

http://i.imgur.com/CiMkd81.jpg

I took the fore stock off my 1874 Quiggley (Pedersoli 45-70) and there were no markings there.

[Red River Rick]

My Pedersoli Long Range Competition is chambering for 45-90...............hence the "Warning" markings on the bottom of the barrel, just ahead of the foreend tip.

RRR

[pjames32]

Back to my original question................This is a Navy Arms Remington Rolling Block. I can find no markings stating black powder only or black powder recommended.

"45-70 w/5744 & 480gr boolit
I have some cast 480gr (NOE) boolits for my 45-70. I want a mild recoiling load for my Rolling Block. Accurate lists a minimum load for a 460gr boolit of 27.5gr and a 500gr boolit minimum of 25.2gr. My question-has anyone gone lower and what were your results? I have used 25.0gr with my 350gr boolits and with my 405gr. boolits.
Thanks for your input."
PJ

[Red River Rick]

My Accurate loading manual, #2, lists a minimum load of 24.3 grs of 5744 for a 475 gr bullet and 23.4 grs for a 500 gr bullet.

And list a maximum load of 27.0 grs of 5744 for the 475 gr bullet and 26.0 grs for the 500 grain bullet.

I'm not sure which maual you have, but the differences make me wonder which is one is correct.

RRR

[GOPHER SLAYER]

In my opinion this discussion is spinning off into outer space. The picture of the rifle in question has been posted on the ASSRA site and you can see that the barrel split but the action is intact. We have no way of knowing what the powder charge was, just that the case was loaded with 5744. I have been shooting smokeless powder in my Pedersoli Sharps in 45-70 since I bought it new in 1994 with no problems. I have several friends who do the same with their Pedersoli rifles. The falling block action is one of the strongest actions ever made with far more locking area than any bolt action. I also have a roller in 40-65 and I usually use 19 grains of 4759 in it and it manages to hold together. Until today I thought the Quigley match was black powder only. The way things are going, in the near future instead of matches with real rifles we will just put on goggles, set in front of a screen and have a virtual reality match. Not to worry, Hillary will set things aright.

[pjames32]

RRR
The load is from the Accurate web site. My manual is #1 and does not have 5744. Thanks for the info!!
PJ

[Artful]

In my opinion this discussion is spinning off into outer space. The picture of the rifle in question has been posted on the ASSRA site and you can see that the barrel split but the action is intact. We have no way of knowing what the powder charge was, just that the case was loaded with 5744. I have been shooting smokeless powder in my Pedersoli Sharps in 45-70 since I bought it new in 1994 with no problems. I have several friends who do the same with their Pedersoli rifles. The falling block action is one of the strongest actions ever made with far more locking area than any bolt action. I also have a roller in 40-65 and I usually use 19 grains of 4759 in it and it manages to hold together. Until today I thought the Quigley match was black powder only. The way things are going, in the near future instead of matches with real rifles we will just put on goggles, set in front of a screen and have a virtual reality match. Not to worry, Hillary will set things aright.


The word is that the rifle had a rung chamber from previous shots fired. He had the load with a wad on the powder holding it down.

Below is the results. The action held but the barrel didn't. It blew out the and long cracks on the top.


Kurt

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/P1000466_zps95ysy7qg.jpg
(http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/P1000466_zps95ysy7qg.jpg.html)
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/P1000467_zpsomr6qoil.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/P1000467_zpsomr6qoil.jpg.html)


Sounds like his loading procedure was in error to me - the wad not the charge per se.

[MT Chambers]

The problem I see is loading small amounts of smokeless in those large cases, way to easy to double charge, the only exception that I know of is with Trail Boss, that fills the case.

[Don McDowell]

Take a look at the pressure data on Hogdons web site using trailboss in the 45-70 ought to scare the bejeebers out of most anybody..
5744 is a bulky powder and fills the case about half full even when using the "trapdoor" data.
The problem here is apparently the use of a wad to hold the powder down against the primer, something that Accurate specifically says not to do, yet there was a thread here not long ago with a fair number of folks saying that was the way to go... Never dang mind what the pressure tested load data says...
But now we have a picture of what happened when someone ignored the manufacturers recommendation.

[rfd]

lyman's 49th has good & viable .45-70 trap door loads for aa5744 ... pm me if you want that data.

using any white powder load, a wad directly ON the powder, or a filler of any type is something i wouldn't do ... a tight fitting wad under the bullet is different, imo. buz coker and other smokeless loaders at the quigley do, or did, just that. ymmv on that matter.

in the long run, it's my strong belief that real black powder is best for these 19th century rifles, both real and replica. it's just too easy to load real bp and the the clean up of both rifle and brass is not hard nor time consuming. i'll further argue that bp is just more accurate, and that it's chamber pressures are quite low is a known fact. real black powder is plentiful, and if not available locally there are many online vendors ready to ship. go black, no need to look back ... not ever. promise.

anybody need an new and sealed 8# cannister of aa5744? [smilie=s:

[Roundball]

This is my experience with 5744 without comment on this unfortunate accident. My Pedersoli "Billy Dixon" does, indeed, have the BP only label on the bottom flat ahead of the forend. I have found two things about 5744 other than it is satisfactory with appropriate loads. There is all sorts of data out there for 5744. I have found that it's better to do some research. I started working up loads using TD level starting loads in 45-70 from a reliable source. The recoil was fierce and information for the chronograph indicated this load was questionable in my 1885 and may have been potentiality deadly in a TD. No too long ago I was loading 24.8 grains of 5744 using Lyman 457124 bullet-a very good load in my HW. I visually check my cases before seating bullets. Sure enough I had double charged one case. Near fifty grains of 5744 really filled the case. Point being that a visual inspection would easily identify a double charge. I am working up smokeless loads for these old rifles due to scarcity of BP in this region and the possibility of further restrictions related to recent circumstances in the country. Measure twice and cut once!

[BrentD]

rfd, if you are headed to Raton by chance, I might take you up on that 8# of 5744.

Roundball, what cartridge is your Dixon? I'm bettting it is not .45-70

[rfd]

.... I am working up smokeless loads for these old rifles due to scarcity of BP in this region and the possibility of further restrictions related to recent circumstances in the country....

unless the added expense of shipping and hazmat fees apply to you, and/or there are local legislative rules that apply, there are plenty of online resources that will happily sell you the best of black powders shipped direct to your door (no travel fees to spend on your part). and, if you go in on a bulk buy (25#) with others, there usually are no shipping or hazmat fees.

really do consider shooting only real black powder in yer rifle - it's not only safer, it's arguably more accurate.

ymmv.

[rfd]

rfd, if you are headed to Raton by chance, I might take you up on that 8# of 5744.

no sir, wish i was headed west. no shipping so i hafta sell that jug'a 5744 locally - $160 takes it, for cheap (almost half what i paid for it).

[BrentD]

Bummer, I would like it. Any chance you are driving through Iowa? I live within 1/4 mile of the interstate.

[rfd]

sorry, the furthest west i'm gettin' this year is pennsy, and the east side at that. :cry:

[BrentD]

Bummer again. You need to get out more! :)

I'll thrown in a backyard barbecue, sweet corn to die for, a quart of the World's Best Honey, and a few good beers :)

Come on! Everyone wants to vacation in Iowa!

Oh well

[rfd]

i'd invite y'all over to the garden state, but then again i wouldn't wish this hell hole state of stupidity on anyone. :evil:

[M71]

Graf and Son currently has a sale on their house brand black powder. It's priced at $12.99 a pound. I'm strongly considering purchasing 12 lbs. With the Hazmat fee and their customary $7.95 shipping fee per order the total price is $192.33. That works out to $16.03 per pound to your door. It's formulated by Wano Schwarzpulver of Germany using alder charcoal. Additionally there is no minimum quantity restriction. I believe it's currently the best price on black powder. If anyone knows of a better price please let me know. I shoot 45-70 in a Pedersoli Super Match Rolling Block and an 1874 Long Range. I have only used black powder in these because these guns were designed for black powder and clean up is fast and easy. You won't risk an overload because it simply isn't possible. Safety and tradition here and I enjoy smoke and confetti.

[rfd]

... Safety and tradition here and I enjoy smoke and confetti.

i'm with ya on that, podner!

that's a great bp price - i've heard good stuff about the wano, too.

[BrentD]

M71
I think the G&S powder is probably Schuetzen brand. Personally, I would not buy it.

I know it is expensive, but Swiss powder is still what wins pretty much every single match. If there is an exception, it is very rare. I think you would be much better off with the good stuff. Try to save a nickel, if you must, AFTER you know how really well your rifle can do. I see so many people cut corners on powder, and they just never find the accuracy that they really should be getting. They think they need a new rifle, new barrel, different primers, more compression, less crimp, whatever. In the end, the powder never had the accuracy to begin with.

Buy Swiss 1.5 for those rifles and you will never regret it. You have spent too much money on guns, brass and bullets and too much time on loading as it is.

I buy my powder from Crater at addictedtoblackpowder.com. they have sold me smaller amounts (12#) and may sell it in even smaller batches. But bite the bullet (bad pun) and shell out the dough for the best stuff.

If you absolutely will not buy Swiss, I would recommend the Goex Old Eynsford or whatever it is called. But ...

[rfd]

yep, totally agree, brent - swiss 1.5 all the way IF yer building match grade cartridges.

[Roundball]

Re: "What Cartridge-Yep, the Billy Dixon is a 2.4 Sharps/45-90. The 45-70 was is an original 1885. I had rather be using BP any day.

[Don McDowell]

Graf and Son currently has a sale on their house brand black powder. It's priced at $12.99 a pound. I'm strongly considering purchasing 12 lbs. With the Hazmat fee and their customary $7.95 shipping fee per order the total price is $192.33. That works out to $16.03 per pound to your door. It's formulated by Wano Schwarzpulver of Germany using alder charcoal. Additionally there is no minimum quantity restriction. I believe it's currently the best price on black powder. If anyone knows of a better price please let me know. I shoot 45-70 in a Pedersoli Super Match Rolling Block and an 1874 Long Range. I have only used black powder in these because these guns were designed for black powder and clean up is fast and easy. You won't risk an overload because it simply isn't possible. Safety and tradition here and I enjoy smoke and confetti.

Grafs powder is Schuetzen, it's a pretty good powder. 65 grs of the 2f under most 530 gr greasers will shoot well. You might want to consider ordering your powder from Powder Inc. You can mix and match brands in one shipment, and Jerry is good people to deal with.
Olde Eynsford is a better powder, and is delivering good accuracy and velocity to those that try it. At a recent midrange match a fella shot a 541-2x using it in a 45-90 with paper patch loads he had not previously tested. It has also been used by a couple of fellas in Creedmoor and preformed very well.
KIK is also an often over looked powder.
Try several brands, see which one will give you the accuracy that you want, at a price point you're comfortable with.

[Jim_P]

FWIW, The Pedersoli 45-70 IS NOT a Black Powder only rifle. Directly from the Pedersoli Sharps Manual:

The .45-70 caliber can be loaded with commercial smokeless factory made ammunition, not
exceeding the 29.007 C.U.P. / P.S.I. or reloaded cartridges with black powder (or Pyrodex, if
allowed in your Country) not exceeding the 25.000 C.U.P./P.S.I


BLACK POWDER RELOADING FOR SHARPS RIFLES .40-65 / .45-90 / .45-110 / .45-120 / .50-70 / .50-90
CALIBERS AND OTHERS Sharps rifles .40-65, .45-90, .45-110, .45-120, .50-70 or .50-90 calibers has been manufactured
for the use of cartridges exclusively reloaded with BLACK POWDER (or Pyrodex, if allowed in your Country),
as is indicated by the stamped writing on the barrel.

So it is perfectly possible to have a Pedersoli 45-70 rifle without a Black Powder Only stamping. However, from what I understand from the above is all 45-90 - 110 and 120 ARE Black Powder only.