Popped primers and Lyman push on GC's ?

[45-70bpcr]

Shot our annual Cast Boolit Silhouette championship at Ridgway, PA this weekend. A pile of fun as always. This year I had an issue I need help getting my head around. I had a problem with 2 of my guns that I have shot many times with these well proven loads. First for grins I was shooting at the pigs with my M1a. 31.0 Varget, 311299 with LBT Blue, mixed commercial cases that do have a few firings on them. I finished 25 rounds in the box that were left over from last year with no problems. Moved to the front of the box same load just new boolits and a new carton of Win LR primers. First round the primer blew out. Next couple were o.k., then the next 2 came out. I scratched my head and figured even though they felt fine when seated with my Lee primer tool the pockets must be tired. I put that gun away and then moved to my .30 bolt gun with the 311299, 30.0 AA-2520. shot probably 100 rounds between my son and I and moved to a new fresh box of just loaded rounds and started having the same issue, only thing in common is the same lot of primers used in the M1a and the same 311299's with the old black and white box Lyman press on checks. After a few of these I moved to another box of old ammo made with Hornady crimp on GC's and all was fine. When I got home I pulled the boolits from the suspect .308's and about 60% left the GC in the neck. The primers are not loose in the pockets so I am pretty sure somehow the Lyman GC's are coming off and somehow making high pressure but not sure how it could. I've used quite a few of these same checks in mild loads for different guns with no problem but not so with these stiffer loads. Any ideas?

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[bhn22]

The old style Lyman checks don't crimp to the bullet of course. I'm sure you already know this, but it's worth repeating. Are the checks on the bullets right at the inside edge of the neck/shoulder junction? I'm wondering if some of the checks fell off and ended up sitting on top of the powder charge.

[45-70bpcr]

The .308's are seated right at the junction or slightly below. None of the ones I pulled apart at home later had the check loose in the powder. The little .30's have a 30-06 neck and the check is well within the neck you can see in the picture.

[Yodogsandman]

What's a little .30 that has a 30-06 neck? A .308 with a pushed back shoulder? What's the rifle chambered for?

[quack1]

There is a thread on another site about bad Winchester primers. It lists some lot numbers known to give problems. Might apply to your problem.
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/9987872/Disintegrating_Primer#Post9987872

[crackers]

Like quack said:
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/big-bore-rifles/375-hh-primer-leaks/

...is the original problem. For the secondary answer - the checks pulled off.

[45-70bpcr]

What's a little .30 that has a 30-06 neck? A .308 with a pushed back shoulder? What's the rifle chambered for?

We call it the 30-35 O'Dell after one of the guys that put it together years ago. It is a shortened 30-06 with new cases made from .35 Remington. Pictures included but distorted for Lord knows why?

[45-70bpcr]

I've left crimped on GCs in case necks when pulling boolits, so no surprise that the older Lymans stayed in the case necks.

Have you checked your scale for zero? Did you verify charge weights prior to throwing charges into cases?

Other than that, I would be suspicious of the primers. I use WW primers in some loads, but mostly with moderate loads. I'll be checking the list of lots mentioned in the linked thread to compare to my bricks.

Thanks. I did check my scale and the charges of the pulled rounds when I got home and everything spot on. They are not close to on the edge max loads either. I wanted to blame the primers at the match because it was the only thing I thought the loads had in common until I figured out they also were the only only ones loaded with the press on Lyman's Gas checks. I don't know but will check my primer lots numbers for sure.

[44man]

You did not say if the primers are loose in those cases you showed. They sure look like the pockets have expanded and other indications show SEE events.
Checks could have fallen into the powder to cause that.
How is the neck tension, boolits might have popped out from primer pressure and stopped.

[runfiverun]

I would think a gas check banging forward and slamming into the base of the boolit hard enough to cause high pressure would have caused chamber ringing too.

if you can get back to the range easily you might want to spend some time looking for the errant gas checks, they usually don't fly too far.
and that would maybe give you a clue.

[45-70bpcr]

"There is a thread on another site about bad Winchester primers. It lists some lot numbers known to give problems. Might apply to your problem.
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthr...er#Post9987872 (http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/9987872/Disintegrating_Primer#Post9987872)"

Thanks quack. I am going to verify my lot numbers tonight.


"You did not say if the primers are loose in those cases you showed. They sure look like the pockets have expanded and other indications show SEE events.
Checks could have fallen into the powder to cause that.
How is the neck tension, boolits might have popped out from primer pressure and stopped."

44man The primer pockets are definitely enlarged. Neck tension was good. Boolits all made it to the targets o.k. The bolt gun cases get partial sized with a fl die backed out a bit and the .308 cases are always fl sized with a rcbs small base die. I talked to 30wcf a couple times this morning. He was there and knows my guns. He caught something suspect I would likely not have. He asked me about annealing my cases. I did indeed anneal the small cases for the bolt gun this winter but not the .308's. When I told him my method of using 2 torches to work down the line of cases we are wondering if I may have got carried away with it making the entire 30-35 case soft including the head and primer pocket. I go for a soft red glow on the necks in a dark room and they were air cooled and not sitting in water. Being about 1.700" long maybe the pockets did get soft? I may have 2 different issues with 2 guns?

[Geezer in NH]

The difference you stated was the primers. That would be MY first suspect. Try some different primers and see is a way to tell.

[mold maker]

On the pulled bullets the GC was left behind when the inertia of the boolit exited the case mouth. There was no pressure to push the GC out with the pulled bullet. If a regular puller was involved there wasn't even inertia involved. The GC was simply wiped off the boolit by the neck.
Unless the GC is already free of the boolit, (loose in the powder, in the case) any firing pressure will hold it fast to the boolit base until it exits the barrel. If that weren't the case, the heavy boolit being engraved by rifling, wouldn't have enough momentum to make it through the bore. In essence the charge pushes the GC which in turn pushes the boolit.
When you pulled the boolits were the GCs mixed with the powder, in the interior, of the case, or were they held captive by the neck?
Your description leads me to think you had primers that were undersized and or defective. Since there is a history of problems (a recall) with that brand of primer, it seems your one of the unlucky recipients.

[Butchman205]

I would first suspect the primers...but the loose gas checks could be the prob.

Here's an idea I came up with several years ago when I was having a similar issue with pressure:

Take a couple of the remaining cartridges, and cut them open with a small pipe cutter. That way you can see what the gas check looks like...without the inertia of the puller possibly disturbing the bullet and gas check relationship. If you find ANY checks loose without inertia pulling...that could cause a HUGE snafu when you pull the bang switch.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I had my first blown primer in my entire life about 1 year ago. The Primer or what was left of it went thru the vent hole in the side of the action, and the case head was severely expanded and the primer pocket was blown out larger than .25 ".

This was in my new Ruger Guide Gun and came about 30 rounds into a Silhouette shoot. I had to open the bolt with a rubber mallet. I was not happy and it scared the Ship out of me. This was a standard load of 147gr FMJBT with 45 gr of IMR4895 which fills the case to just below the neck it is impossible to get more than 50 gr in the case. Once fired Factory Federal .30-06 brass used to test fire rebuilt Garands.

I remembered that a few of the primers had went in very easily so after decapping all the brass I measured every single primer pocket.

I found 5 out of 50 that had pockets that were pushing .213 and the primers just about fell out!. I had one more box of the same loaded ammo so I proceeded to pull all those and knock out the primers and measure all those holes. 5 more out of 50 almost fell out.

I took the offending cases and ran them thru a Dillon Primer Pocket Swager. Reseated the primers and some went in with decent tension. The rest got tossed.

Problem solved.

I have 1400 rounds of this same brass, and now every one of those cases gets the primer pocket Swaged before it is loaded.

I also pay closer attention to the force it takes to insert a primer, and if it just falls in I try to reswage it or toss it.

Plenty more where they came from.

I seriously doubt your problem was caused by loose gas checks. At 25,000psi ?everything is going out the hole in front unless the path of least resistance is out the back, and a gas check hasn't got enough mass to plug the hole no matter where it is .

Now if you have a little headspace problem like if your case shoulder is set too far back You just made a new path of least resistance out the back.

The only way the primers could be a fault is if they were grossly undersize, and you should pick that up as you are inserting them with whatever tool you are using. If they fall in, then try that one again or toss it.

I just got one of those RCBS Lever Operated Priming tools and they have the best feel of any tool I have ever used. Previously I used an RCBS Universal Hand Tool and before that a Lee first gen tool.

The blown primer was a first for me and the brand of primer was either Rem 9 1/2 or Win LR.

Randy

[44man]

Sorry, any pocket expanded is an SEE event where pressure reverses. Stopped boolit. Even a little looser primer will not do any harm.
Long ago Federal had a problem with primer edges blowing out to ring a bolt. It was traced to a cleaning compound that ate the cup, fixed fast.
These cases are not that.
You can seat short to reach rifling so there is no tension and a bullet can pop out too easy to stop at the rifling. Long lead to the rifling where you want to get close to the end of the lead. 6.5 swede famous with light bullets. Lead was made for longer bullets.
Primer pockets just do not enlarge without reverse pressures.
Even if you have a jump to the rifling, seat the bullet the right depth, don't let it go in the brass 1/8". The jump does not affect accuracy.
Anytime you find pockets expanded, back up and find out why. All Weatherbys are made with a long lead to reduce pressure but don't long seat any bullet.
Since those boolits were seated deep enough, I suspect neck tension, slippery lube, primer pressure, loss of the check, no tension, boolit not held by reaching rifling, so many things that can destroy the gun.
Anneal necks and reduce tension?
I see a danger zone with that brass.

[45-70bpcr]

I very much appreciate everyone's help. Kind of a tally for me from all the great input.

1. My Winchester LR primers used in both guns are from lot #DAL602G which I did not see on any of the lists I could find of people having issues with but still the only common denominator between the 2 guns other than the Lyman GC so ?? They felt o.k. when seated with the Lee tool. If I come across any that seat too easily I toss them.

2. The primer pockets on the ones that blew are definitely enlarged . Could my possible over annealing of the short 30-35 cases have made the case head and primer pockets soft so they could not retain the primer under pressure? That sounds plenty possible but does not explain the .308 cases that blew primers and were not annealed. There are several cases that showed somewhat flattened primers that did not pop also, they are right beside cases that look perfectly normal loaded exactly the same way. I did check my powder scale and measured some of the remaining charges after I pulled the boolits and they were spot on and neither of the loads are approaching max.

3. Were my cases just over worked and tired? Definitely possible with the 30-35 since I have fired them many times since the parent .35 remington cases are so hard to find. But again does not explain the .308 cases. They are mixed commercial and were fired twice with J's in the same gun then set aside and this was the first firing with boolits. The 30-35 were partial sized most of their lives with a lyman muzzle sizer die from a 310 set until it started scratching the necks and I cut down a 30-06 fl die to fit them, but back it off to partial size only not touching the shoulder, so I think I was not having a headspace issue by setting the shoulder back as Randy asked. The .308's are sized in a rcbs small base fl die always. I spot check them with a wilson case gauge but don't think it would take much oversizing to create a problem there, but again would only explain one of the guns. The pictures do make the flash hole look large but all my pictures are distored for some reason. I did not enlarge any of the holes (on purpose at least)


4. could the GC's actually be coming off and falling in with the powder charge? Maybe with the .308's since the GC is seated slightly below the base of the neck but not the 30-35's since they are well within the neck.

5. This was from a PM. He was wondering if the ammo was transported nose up with the 30-35 loads and the aa2520 powder. Is there any way my primers could possibly have not been completely bottomed out while seating. Since aa2520 is a very fine spherical could a bit of it work its way down the flash hole into the primer and pocket kind of setting up a mini chamber blowing the snot out of the pocket?? Never thought of that but it sounds possible. I seated the primers with an old round tray Lee primer and I have seen where the cam surface of the lever that moves the seating rod wears over time and doesn't quite stroke enough to fully seat the primers. I checked some of my pull down rounds last night that are still primed and they at least seemed bottomed out. This would not help with the .308 cases though since they are loaded with IMR4064 extruded.

5.Right now I am still confused but do think it is time for a new priming tool, some new brass when I can find it, try some Federal primers, check my sizing die settings etc. I may be having different issues with the 2 guns but that doesn't seem likely.

Thanks again to all for the help.

[44man]

Negative! Too high chamber pressure will cause blown primers, not just an obstruction.

He has shot these same loads in the past with no issues. The differences here were the primers and GCs. In that the GCs were captive in the necks of the 30-35, the GC could NOT be the issue. I KNOW the shooter and respect his knowledge and experience, so fully expect the primers are the culprit.

I've shot 300BOs with primers loose enough that I tapped the case heads on edge to see of they could be dislodged, and they were not. These were full power loads, and some of them show ejector plunger marks on the case heads, so KNOW they are 55Kpsi loads, and have not experienced blown primers. A "good" primer will self seal in the primer pocket under pressure like a mini-ball. One with a "split cup" can and will fail. most often these look like a burn through on the edge rather than a piercing around the firing pin.

I suspect these (OP's) to have gross defects in the cup to the point to where that are like layers of foil and simply disintegrating.
You contradict yourself. I never seen high pressures alone make a primer pocket large or spit gas. maybe flat but like you said, they seal. Nothing to do with a punctured primer.
A bad primer cup will not expand the pocket. That chamber pressure is applied wrong. 60,000 psi will not do that. Pressure has reversed.
How to fix--ADD more powder, my 7R uses 34.5 gr of Varget and the 7BR uses 32.5 gr. Under load Varget and you get SEE or failure to ignite.
Anyone with a brain will see even 4759 will get a failure with a reduced load.
I have gone to over 55,000 psi with LP primers without a flat primer.
Crazy isn't it, MORE powder?
Sad to see some know so little.

[243winxb]

Check your scale for accuracy.

[243winxb]

Bore riding bullets jammed into the rifling may raise pressures? Could the new bullets alloy have more antimony making them larger in diameter on the unsized bore riding area. Seems this 200 gr bullet may reach the lands?

[plainsman456]

Primers primers

If it is the ones without the chrome plating,it is the primers.

Not all of the numbers on the other site are all of the ones having problems.

While i do not pretend to know everything about everything i have had some knowledge about this problem.
The primers were switched out for CCI's and the problem went away.
As for the checks staying in the brass when pulling they were meant to stay on when pushed from behind.
I have had them stick on 30-30 and others,makes no difference it seems.

Your mileage may vary.

[44man]

Double charge is not on this plate. Neither is pressure with normal loads. You CAN exceed pressures of course but none of the loads mentioned are over max. They are too LOW.
I use 37.5 gr of Varget in the 6.5 Swede. Why use 31 in an 06?
You can go years with a load. then it happens.
I shot 46 gr of 4831 in the swede for years and so did my friend. Then I had an SEE event and soon after he did too. went to 47 gr to stop it. But Varget worked better.
Until you see a complete failure to ignite with 296 and 4759 with a lower load and a real SEE event, you should stand back.
I have said not a thing about stupid over loads.

[45-70bpcr]

Surely the loads you are using in the 6.5 Swede are for j bullets? 47 gr. of IMR 4831 is near or over max. for the 6.5x55 in my Nosler book for jacketed?? The 31 you mention in a 06? I'm shooting 31.0 Varget in a M1a .308 that cycles the action 100%. I do not believe it is too lite of a charge for a 200 grain cast boolit.


Double charge is not on this plate. Neither is pressure with normal loads. You CAN exceed pressures of course but none of the loads mentioned are over max. They are too LOW.
I use 37.5 gr of Varget in the 6.5 Swede. Why use 31 in an 06?
You can go years with a load. then it happens.
I shot 46 gr of 4831 in the swede for years and so did my friend. Then I had an SEE event and soon after he did too. went to 47 gr to stop it. But Varget worked better.
Until you see a complete failure to ignite with 296 and 4759 with a lower load and a real SEE event, you should stand back.
I have said not a thing about stupid over loads.

[runfiverun]

we might wanna settle down a bit.
and working on the OP's issue at hand might help him out some too.

[44man]

Bullet weight is a factor I did not mention and I use the Hornady 129 gr in my Swede. The 140 gr shoots with 36 gr of Varget. Gave me groups of .436" at 100. 410 shotgun shells leave the rail every shot.
I don't remember if the OP mentioned his weight.
You CAN download Varget as you can even 4759 and get a failure. I have had the boolit stick in the barrel with the full charge of 4759 behind it, imagine if the powder ignited. I only reduced 1/2 gr for a heavier boolit. You do not need a slow powder. Mid range powders can cause an SEE event too.
The worst thing I read is "I do it all the time." Well I did too and it took just one time to see.
Even with the .454 with the stupid SR primers, I had failures to burn with all starting loads of 296. Only when I got to max did it stop. Went to a LP case and it then shot anything.
Did I over load the Swede with the 129 and 47 gr of 4831? 48 is max. I darn sure know what I am doing.

[Mal Paso]

Winchester has been having quality control problems that seem to have started about the time they stopped plating the primer cups. 6 or 7 years ago? Most recently I saw a S&W 610 with the firing pin bushing eroded to the point it was cone shaped. The gunsmith, who I respect, put it squarely on the shoulders of Winchester and did a writeup for our gun club.

[44man]

A bad primer is an issue but they might puncture or leak but they will not expand pockets.

[Mal Paso]

A bad primer is an issue but they might puncture or leak but they will not expand pockets.

I don't have any where near your experience and the Winchester Primer issues I've seen are Large Pistol cups too hard to fire reliably and cups cracking.

The flash hole is restrictive. I locked up a revolved good and solid by firing a primer in an empty case without drilling the flash hole bigger.

Could a primer be double charged? Could the anvil or bit of brass restrict the flash hole?

Maybe plainsman456 could detail his primer issues.

[runfiverun]

the priming compound is placed in the cup then the anvil is set in on top.
if you doubled the priming compound it would over-flow the cup like a double charge of slow burning powder.

[44man]

Primers almost always pop out a little, depends on head space and as the case head pressure comes back the primer is again seated. You can see flat primers in a lot of revolvers because the case comes back to seat them, not an indication of high pressure.
Shooting a primer in an empty case can't do that so the primer stays out. Just drop a dowel down the barrel into the case and give it a rap. I had a lot of trouble shooting rubber boolits so I drilled the flash holes but NEVER use those for powder loads.
Boolit movement from primer pressure has to be avoided by using neck tension. A primer can push a boolit into rifling even if seated to touch. Then it can be a bore obstruction. Too much air space will see the powder charge pushed ahead and the flame front can reverse. If it moves too much and removes the powder from primer flame, the powder might not even light.
Boolits that pull from recoil in a revolver will increase air space and if it lights off, the thing that saves you and the gun is the gap. It might be why we read of ruined forcing cones and split barrels. Heat and gas jetting is above what the steel can take.
Same happens with high force primers in smaller cases in revolvers, boolits move too soon but most times all you see are poor groups and velocities all over the place. Even the .44 mag is not large enough so I use standard primers. The .45 Colt will work with standards but can take the WW primers. As brass gets larger, mag primers work better.
That little cup is so much more important then the credit they get.
Most say, "My velocity is higher with mag primers." You have to get away from that.
Even using the wrong primer in shot shells can raise pressure past the breaking point and if you load them you will see warnings in all manuals to use ONLY the primer listed.

[45-70bpcr]

O.K. With much appreciated help here, PM's and a couple phone calls I have a explanation that satisfies me to the popped (blown) primers. I am going to have to admit to an oversight that definitely confused the issue. One of the possible explanations for the 30-35 cases was when I annealed them (over annealed them) it made the case head soft enough it could not support the primer even under its normal pressure range. This made sense but did not explain having the same issue with my .308's since I did not anneal them, at least intentionally! It finally came to me early one morning. The night before we we leaving for this match when I was gathering up all our shooting and overnight stuff I was also rushing around trying to load up an additional 50 rounds of .308. I fl sized them as normal for the M1a and put the cases in a metal colander on my electric range in the basement to hurry the drying process after washing off the sizing lube. In the meantime I worked at loading the van. When I got back to the drying cases they got considerably hotter than I intended. I let them air cool and finished loading them. I now suspect the cases on the bottom of the colander were unintentionally annealed throughout and acted exactly as the 30-35's that I over annealed. I don't think I was getting an over pressure issue even though it is exactly what it looked like, I think I altered the integrity of the cases and they could not hold the primer even at normal pressures.

Thanks to everyone that offered help and I apologize for not thinking of the .308 case issue earlier.

[44man]

That sure might be the problem, only takes about 600° to ruin the brass.
I hope it solves your problem.

[45-70bpcr]

That sure might be the problem, only takes about 600° to ruin the brass.
I hope it solves your problem.

Thank you. I'll file it under live and learn.