43 Spanish Reformato

[KenH]

Hello all - I have an old 43 Spanish Reformato Rolling Block. I've pretty well ID'd the rifle from several good links I found in this forum. I also did a chamber cast so it's pretty much assured to be the Reformato round. I ordered 10 of the 43 Spanish brass from Buffalo Arms, got them today. They don't have the Reformato brass, so it seems an easy chore to fire form to Reformato. From all I've read, it seems like the 43 Spanish brass should have a .650 rim OD, the Buffalo Arms brass (JBL?) is only .596" rim size. It's a bit small, but does work with my ejector after firing.

I fire formed a brass using 15 grains of Pyrodex power (what I had on hand) with cornmeal to fill case, then a .45 caliber pure lead ball pressed in mouth of case. This is a very light charge, but seems to have fireformed the case nicely. I can barely see the mark where the shoulder was on the 43 Spanish brass. about like a .22 rimfire?

My question, all I read is recommending use of BP - and I've found GOEX black powder listed for BassPro (local to me). For shooting much reduced loads (700 FPS range?), is there a real danger to using smokeless power such as PB or Unique? At this point I'm not much concerned with accuracy (will be later) as this old Rolling Block doesn't even have a rear sight..... yet {g}. I'm wishing to use lead cast bullets dropped from a Lee .457-340 mold and sized to .453 - later I wish to try PP'ing and realize this will require a smaller smooth sided cast.

Thanks to all for any help or suggestions.

Ken H>

[pworley1]

If it is otherwise a solid rifle, you should be able to use any smokeless load that is safe for the springfield trapdoor 45/70. I shoot 32g of imr 4198 with a 250 g .454 bullet.

[KenH]

Thanks for the comment - I suspect the rifle will handle more load than I desire to handle - that's why I mentioned ~700 FPS loads.

Ken H>

[enfield]

Be careful using cornmeal as a filler in a bottleneck case, it can form into a solid and damage or take the neck off the case ( bad if you only have ten to work with )

[KenH]

Good point - corn meal is sorta packy. I'd not thought about that aspect. Fortunately it's all over now - got all of them fireformed. I even got to fire one 430 grain pure lead in front of 9 grains of PB. Made a nice "POP" and seems like a good light load. I'll chrono a couple of those tomorrow.

Ken H>

[KenH]

OK, been playing with old rifle a bit - When the cases are fireformed, the neck is .494" where one drawing I found calls for a .492" neck size on the Reformato case. Problem is the bore slugs at .454" groove diameter. The throat is perhaps .460". I have bullets that drop from mold at .457", and also some I sized down to .454"

With the case OD neck at .494", the ID of case is .463" to .470" depending on case. That means the cast bullet just falls into case requiring a pretty good crimp to hold in place even with un-sized bullets at .457". Of concern if crimped is the space where the bullet is not supported allowing burning gas to flow up around side of bullet at base. I've always understood the bullet should be supported with a straight section of case so the base of bullet is sealed to inside of neck.

As far as that goes, with a straight case, there is usually some taper from rim to mouth. Doesn't that allow gas to seep into sides of bullet at base? The 43 Spanish Reformato has a case that tapers from about .525" at rim to .492 at mouth of neck.

I guess I could use a thin paper patch to make the bullet seat tight in case? OR use a large enough to hold tight in case, but that sure would be squeezing into that small .454" bore. Is that a problem with soft lead bullets to squeeze .010" into the barrel? Sure seems like a lot to me.

This is all new learning for me so I'm looking for info from ya'll to help me out here. 40 yrs ago I shot cast bullets by the thousand, but not in BP single shot rifles - just old 30-30 and the like.

Thanks to all for any help and guidance.

Ken H>

[toot]

next time try using rice chripies to fire form, they don't pack tight. I shoot a 45/70 load in mime I have a carbine & a rifle, of 27 grains of 4188 IMR powder with a .405 grain lead cast bullet.

[toot]

also in my REFORMATOS I have fire formed the cases by shooting 43 SPANISH rounds I them. I learnt this from cartridges of the world, and searching on line for information on the REFORMATO round, it says that the Spanish when they ran out of 43 REFORMATO ammo they would shoot 43 SPANISH ammo in there guns without any problems. so I tried it and WALLAH!! this is possible with out no ill affects on the gun or brass, and saves getting a $150.00 + set of dies for the REFORMATO BRASS.

[KenH]

You just answered my question - what are you shooting the 45-70 in? No, I don't think you did, I think you might have two Rolling Blocks, one a 45-70 and other 43 Spanish Reformato? That was my understanding also, just fire form 43 Spanish brass to the Reformato. I never found any just Reformato brass, so ordered the standard 43 Spanish brass. What is the OD of your 43 Spanish brass? From all I've read, it seems like the 43 Spanish brass should have a .650 rim OD, the Buffalo Arms brass (JBL - Jamison?) is only .596" rim size. It's a bit small, but does work with my ejector after firing.

The QC on this brass I got is not so great - of the 10 brass the primer flash holes were small on 3 of them and had to be drilled out to match other flash holes so my de-priming pin would work.

Thanks again for comments,

Ken H>

[toot]

I make my 43 SPANISH & REFORMATO brass out of 45/70 & 348 brass. I use UNIQUE with rice chrispies then push the case neck onto a bar of IVORY SOAP to seal it then shoot it in the gun pointing it up into the air, then run them through the 43 SPANISH dies with a small amount of EZ-LUBE it is the best. that is my method maybe some one else has a better way?

[Geezer in NH]

43 spanish reformado cartridge on my desk I just measured as

Rim .651
body at rim .525
Body at crimp .473
Bullet on send band .433 and is brass jacket

Head stamped S 85 A

[toot]

the ones with the brass heads were called THE POISON BULLET. because in the tropics they would turn green and when a soldier was wounded the VERDERGRE, GREENGREASE, as it is would cause gangrene and a horrible death, not that there is a good one in combat!!.

[KenH]

Geezer, that .651 rim would be just right for my Reformato - I check the rifle rim area as .566" - the largest rims I've been able to find is .631" which do work good.

Toot: You use 45-70 brass in your Reformato? I've got a 45-70 laying here and it seems the rim is pretty small and the whole case is a tad on the small side for fireforming to Reformato? The 45-70 rim is .608" so that's larger than the Buffalo Arms brass, but the brass at rim is only .500" rather than .524" as is Reformato spec, but I just now measure the 43 Spanish (Reformato) brass I've got and it's only .515", or right between the 45-70 spec and the 43 Spanish spec. Does the 45-70 expand during fireforming to fit ok? If so, 50 cents/brass sure is a LOTS better than $2.50/brass!

A VERY interesting thing, I've got two batches of brass, as I said in OP, 10 rounds of brass from Buffalo Arms that are marked as "JBA" with rims at .595" and I ordered another 20 brass from Captech International which stated the rims were .631, and they do mic .631" and work MUCH better than the 10 brass from Buffalo Arms. Interesting thing, both sets of brass are stamped "JBA". see photo:
142520

You can see the difference in the brass - does brass from JBA (Jamison?) normally vary this much from batch to batch?

BTW, I found a "Remington No. 1 Rolling Block Creedmoor from Remington Custom Gun Shop. New with original Box and Custom leather-bound Motor Case. Never fired outside of factory." The price is big time at $4500, but imagine having a gun you couldn't shoot? What good is that? Can you imagine how hard that would be knowing first time you shot the rifle, the value drops? Oh well - some folks like to look, other folks like to do.

Ken H>

[toot]

yes it expands during fire forming have had no trouble with them. the rim sets the head space on the cartridge. if it is a tad short no problem. I run 45/70 .405,s through a LEE .439 seizer, works great.

[KenH]

Thanks for the info - I've got one 45-70 brass, and access to more. A buddy purchased a 100 of them for his H&R and I can get a few of those. I'll test on this one 45-70 I've got and see if it will work ok in my old Reformato. The chamber cast I made checks pretty close to what the Reformato should be.

How much Unique do you use to fireform behind rice crispies?

Ken H>

[KenH]

OK, I'm not sure if this should have a new thread started, or since it's about the same old 43 Spanish Reformato cartridge it is better here? Here goes anyway.

The 43 Spanish Reformato is a taper cartridge with no flat straight section at mouth to hold bullet. In my Rolling Block the fired brass has an OD of .492 (spec'd for rifle) with an ID of .460 or so which is about right for a brass thickness of .018" at mouth. My mold is a flat base with a cast diameter of .456/.457" depending on bullet and measuring. The bullet can be easy inserted by hand, but there is no pressure to hold bullet in place. I'll mention again the bore slugs at .454" groove diameter. The throat is perhaps .460". I have bullets that drop from mold at .456/7"

If a bevel is used to form the end slightly so it would be tight on bullet, how do you get the bullet to seat in brass without catching on end with that flat base in a seating die? "IF" the brass were sized to form a short flat section on end, then an expander used to put a slight bell that would help guide the flat base bullet nicely. Is this how it's done? Seems like that would work the brass a lot limiting number of reloads per brass.

I'm seeking guidance and direction here folks. Maybe paper patch?

Ken H>

[toot]

some people use BULLS EYE, 5 grains, but it is a powder that scares me so I don't use it. UNIQUE I start with 5 grains and if it doesn't fire form completely I go up a grain at a time until it fits. aneal the brass b-4 u start.

[toot]

you can buy them already formed very reasonable from- bob Hayley, 211 NORTH RIVER,PO BOX 889, SEYMOUR, TX. 76380. PHONE- (940-) 888-3352. he is a great guy, I have dealt with him for years, when you call leave a message and he will return your call.

[KenH]

Thanks Toot - I just left a msg for him. I use BullsEye many years ago but never really cared for it due to the small amount of powder it takes. Just a few tenths of a grain and you've changed your load a good bit. I used PB more than anything - seems to be a decent balance between speed of burn and amount of powder for light loads. Unique is also a good powder.

Thanks for the info,

Ken H>

[KenH]

OK an update: Bob Hayley just called back. He has the .348 Winchester brass he makes the 43 Spanish from and he agreed it would not work well in my rifle due to the small rim size. He has a large order of brass coming from Europe that will be the right size, but doesn't know when it will be available nor the price of the brass. I said I'd call him back in a few months.

Thanks for the contact for brass.

Ken H>