expense of smelting verses buying

[buletdoc]

I hope this is in the right place but not sure. I have been wondering for sometime now about the cost of collecting and sorting wheel weights as opposed to buying already smelted lead. I started out with wheel weights in the '90s when I started casting because of disability to sell. Social security doesn't pay the bills. No real problem then. But now I'm 61and have had several health problems. Lead wheel weights not as plentiful as we all know now. I have for tire shops that I pay twenty dollars for each 5 gallon bucket. I pick up once a month & usually get one to one & a half per shop. I use a hundred pound plumbers pot & lobster cooker flame to melt with. This last session I got about 400lbs recovered and when I took scrap to local yard was paid only .05 per lb., about 350lbs. for about 17 dollars plus had to use one & half 20lb. propane bottles (Blue Rino 18 dollars exchange). At present have 16 buckets more plus time to go collect again. It's starting to be a little much for me. but still have a couple of stores and several private customers to make for. I tried foundry metal but too expensive now. Any ideas or suggestions.

[scottfire1957]

what is the question? Seems like you have plenty of wheelweights. As I read it, they are now in ingot form, and you've sold the scrap.

You have access to more, but you wonder about the cost of propane.

Seems like you have a good source of wheelweights.

What percentage per bucket of Pb vs Zn vz Fe are you getting? How much fuel are you using to get them to your house? How much propane are you using?

Answer those questions, break out your calculator, and compare your costs vs buying ingots.

Only way to be sure. Some folks figure in time to the equation, but not me.

[buletdoc]

For 2 of the stores it's about 120 miles round trip. My truck gets 9 miles to the gallon. The scrap was 6 buckets full and smelted about 8. Each propane bottle exchanged is about 18 dollars. The propane is not the only thing I wonder about. It is getting harder to lift the buckets because I have had 6 spinal surgeries since '86, the last on2/13/15.The casting is not so much a problem, I have a Ballisti-Cast Mark II, plus Mark V sizer. I do this to help pay bills plus I enjoy it very much.

[Handloader109]

The first thing I would do is find a local store,hardware or building supplies that refills propane tank. I have found that rhino and other commercial refil companies short you. Last time I checked fill was about 16 pounds, way less than elsewhere. That might help a bit, but it sounds like you need some manual labor help.....handling 750-800 pounds of scrap to then get 400 pounds. I'd suggest that you find someone, there may be someone here that would be able to "take over" your collections and smelting in exchange for a bit of a break in lead cost. You would only handle clean casting lead. I've only been casting a year but I have learned chasing WW is not for me, I only buy clean lead.

[scottfire1957]

For 2 of the stores it's about 120 miles round trip. My truck gets 9 miles to the gallon. The scrap was 6 buckets full and smelted about 8. Each propane bottle exchanged is about 18 dollars. The propane is not the only thing I wonder about. It is getting harder to lift the buckets because I have had 6 spinal surgeries since '86, the last on2/13/15.The casting is not so much a problem, I have a Ballisti-Cast Mark II, plus Mark V sizer. I do this to help pay bills plus I enjoy it very much.



If you're making money, continue. If the physical toll on you is not worth it, and only you know the answer to that, then stop. I presume, from your post, that you are selling a product from the alloy you collect. Only you can decide if the work is worth the money.

[lightman]

A lot of guys would be envious of your wheelweight sources! I would calculate the cost and compare to buying lead in ingot form. Lead is selling in the Swapping/Selling section for around a dollar/pound plus shipping. Rotometals is a little higher, but is new alloy.

You might look at your process and try to improve on it. A simple hoist to load/unload those heavy buckets would save the ole back. A 2 wheel dollie is your friend, when it comes to moving those buckets around. Maybe a different smelting set-up? I smelt on a homemade burner doing 400# at a time and use less than one 20# jug of propane. I can't quite get through a second batch without changing jugs. Maybe consider a different burner and natural gas? Some of the guys here have made some nice looking bottom pour smelting pots. Maybe shop some scrap metal places and compare prices? Maybe draft a retired buddy to help out? Or a neighborhood teenager. Just a few thoughts! Sorry to hear about the health problems, I'm going through some of those right now, too. Also, in some places there is a price break when buying propane in bulk, you might shop around and consider a bigger tank.

[62chevy]

what is the question? Seems like you have plenty of wheelweights. As I read it, they are now in ingot form, and you've sold the scrap.

You have access to more, but you wonder about the cost of propane.

Seems like you have a good source of wheelweights.

What percentage per bucket of Pb vs Zn vz Fe are you getting? How much fuel are you using to get them to your house? How much propane are you using?

Answer those questions, break out your calculator, and compare your costs vs buying ingots.

Only way to be sure. Some folks figure in time to the equation, but not me.


scottfire nailed it break out the calculator and do the math. 120 miles round trip at 9 miles a gallon will add up or 52 dollars each trip with gas at 2.89 here. That means if you get 250 pounds clean ingots you have to add .21 cents to each pound.

[bobthenailer]

The last time i smelted WW i did 1,200 lbs with one refilled 20 lb tank and still had a little propane left over!

I use a turkey fryer and a cast iron 5qt dutch oven ( 100lb+ capacity)with a lid and a heat insulater ring that surrounds the outside of the dutch oven with a air gap made from a cheap stainless pot and use wind break shields on all sides of the set up to keep the heat in.
Also keep the pot about 1/3 to 1/2 full at all times of melted alloy before adding un procesed ww and put on the lid , when temp hits about 600 to 650 degrees in 15 min using a long stem turkey fryer thermometer through a hole drilled in the dutch oven 's lid to moniter temp, flux and remove junk and pour about 25 to 30 lbs of ingots and start the cycle over again.

[Jtarm]

The first thing I would do is find a local store,hardware or building supplies that refills propane tank. I have found that rhino and other commercial refil companies short you. Last time I checked fill was about 16 pounds, way less than elsewhere. That might help a bit, but it sounds like you need some manual labor help.....handling 750-800 pounds of scrap to then get 400 pounds. I'd suggest that you find someone, there may be someone here that would be able to "take over" your collections and smelting in exchange for a bit of a break in lead cost. You would only handle clean casting lead. I've only been casting a year but I have learned chasing WW is not for me, I only buy clean lead.

Just outta curiosity, where do you find your clean lead?

I'm not real into the scrap hustling, etc. plus my yuppie wife would have a cow if I smelted at home (what can I say, she's sweet and smokin-hot!)

When I decided to start casting again, I went on the assumption I would use prepped alloy and it still was 50% cheaper than commercial, plus I'd still be in control of everything. Calculations were based on 150-grain .38 special boolits. The numbers said a Lee six banger, sizing kit & 20-lb furnace would pay for itself in 3,000 boolits.

Make that rifle boolits and the savings really kick in.

I'm still running through my old ingots then have about 80lbs wheel weights, freebies from local mom& pop tire shops.

Guy not far from me offered to deliver isotope containers $1.25 per lb.

[jsizemore]

I get my tanks filled with 20lbs (not the exchange 15-16lbs) for $16. I'm a miser with the gas and use an old water heater sheetmetal jacket for wind break around the turkey cooker and 10 quart dutch oven. I use the top sheetmetal for a lid. I don't blast the pot with flame, just till the flame tips start to go up the sides. My gas cost is $.02/lb to turn WW's into ingots. I sort my WW's before I buy from the scrapyard so my return after smelting is 92%. It takes a while to learn your smelting setup. I can only lift 2-100lb buckets at a time now so I keep plenty of buckets in the truck when I go scrounging. I stop at the scrapyard when I have a job near it. I'm frugal/cheap and proud of it.

[tygar]

I'm near Fredericksburg & would be happy to load a 5 or 6 hundred #s of those WWs in my truck so you don't need to work so hard.

[Springfield]

Worth it? Who knows. I know it still is to me. I melted down 800 lbs of sheet lead a few months ago. Ran 2 turkey fryers, both bottles were still at least 1/4 full when I finished. Took me about 3 hours. I get mine refilled at a local rental yard, about 16.00 for a FULL bottle, not the 18.00 for 15 lbs Blue Rhino does. I only use them when a bottle is getting close to being expired.

[jsizemore]

If my calculations are right (at $2.85/gal. for gas) you WW alloy is @ $.52/lb. That doesn't include your time. You know what you have when your done with your smelt. There are some great vendors and individuals on this site that could make your life much easier but at a price.

[Bigslug]

Sounds like your "cost" is less about money than it is about effort and time, and that's an answer we can't give you. There's no sense in breaking yourself for the hobby, and if ordering finished alloy prevents that - certainly a good thing. As to wheel weight collection, this is where having young bucks around to mentor is a real asset. . .

[62chevy]

scottfire nailed it break out the calculator and do the math. 120 miles round trip at 9 miles a gallon will add up or 52 dollars each trip with gas at 2.89 here. That means if you get 250 pounds clean ingots you have to add .21 cents to each pound.


If my calculations are right (at $2.85/gal. for gas) you WW alloy is @ $.52/lb. That doesn't include your time. You know what you have when your done with your smelt. There are some great vendors and individuals on this site that could make your life much easier but at a price.

That is 73 cents a pound just to get it and smelt it. The OP will have to figure the cost of lead but suspect he is paying what he would through the S&S section of this forum and maybe more.

[buletdoc]

Thanks for all the advice. Will have to try and find local fill cause the only option is exchange. might also try and get ww for lower price. I have purchased some already smelted lead on here. Just getting more orders than have lead for and when heat index hits 106 with 74% humidity for last couple of weeks hard to melt ww.

[RogerDat]

I think some of the replies missed the reason for the OP collecting and processing WW's. It is as a supplemental source of income. So difference between cost to produce and price the finished ingots sell for is income. With OP stating that to meet demand he has resorted to purchasing lead from the S&S forum to meet his customer demand.

A lot of "hobby" type activities don't pay a good hourly wage but does provide enough income to be worthwhile. Other efforts turn out to be a bunch of work that does not make a profit, or so little profit that it makes no sense.

Boils down to adding up costs to get and process the lead on one sheet, income from sales on the another and decide. Selling 350 lbs. for 40 cents a lb. profit is $140 worth of profit. Not a lot of money but if that profit is what allows you to have some money in the budget for powder and primers or a hunting license and some ammo it might be totally worth it. My folks sold crafts at a two craft shows every year. Never made a lot per hour for making the crafts, did make enough to allow them to come for an annual visit with the kids and grandkids. Worth it overall without being worth it in terms of an hourly rate of pay.

[lightman]

I would take my empty propane tanks with me on my next wheelweight run and search out a place to have them filled. Five more pounds of propane for $2 less would be a savings. If you used 1-1/2 jugs of propane for 400# of lead you can find a more efficient melting set-up. I can do 400# on less than a bottle (Blue Rhino Refill) and another poster did 1200# on less than a bottle. I would look at another smelting pot and maybe some type of insulation or wind shields. Twenty dollars is a good price on a bucket of wheelweights, and I doubt that you can beat that. You can't do much about the heat except work around it. Start early or work late. Schools out, look for a teenager to help out with the heavy/hot jobs. I hate to see a Guy that wants/needs to work struggle. Just look at your process and search for ways to improve. I would help you a few hours a week if I was close. Good Luck!

[RogerDat]

I can't handle the weight of a full bucket, I take empty buckets and split a full bucket into two half buckets. Hundred plus pounds is just more than I should lift or can handle safely so I work around it. Get guy at tire shop to help me dump half the full bucket into mine to split the weight. Fifty plus pounds in a bucket I can handle just fine.

Windscreens, lids, tapering the sides of wind screen to channel the heat to the pot are certainly going to make your process more propane efficient and thus more profitable. And yes now that it is warming up early and late are the only times to work with big batches of hot lead over a big propane burner.

[10sandxs]

In Regards to handling full buckets, you might consider building or buying a hitch mounted hoist. I know several guys that use them during deer season for field dressing and loading. Start with a 2" square tube to fit your reciever hitch, weld a piece of round pipe vertical to it and make a short arm with a stud that fits into the pipe. add a winch and pulley system to lift the buckets off the ground and swung onto your truck.