Observations from 1941 Belding & Mull Hand Book

[JRD]

Guys,
In an earlier post I mentioned reading a Belding & Mull Hand Book from 1941. I made some notes that I wanted to ask here on this board.

Maybe the B&M book was quite detailed in it's time, but after reading it, I got the impression that the reloader of the Pre-WWII era was pretty technically astute. I read some stuff in there that makes me think we've lost some knowledge as a whole as trends in shooting and guns change.

Enough of that here's some stuff maybe you guys can comment on:

-To clean lead fouling they recommended scrubbing your bore with "blue ointment" from the drug store. What was "blue ointment"? Mercury perhaps? (in hind sight, some of their ideas weren't maybe so good)

-Scope reticles were referred to as "graticules". Yes it is in the dictionary.

-In a table of bore dimensions, .44-40 was listed as "old" being .424 with "new" dimensions at .427. Funny how the old tight bores are a mystery to gun scribes today. Seemed to be common knowledge then.

Also, 45 Colt was listed as .452. Maybe Colt tightened their bores from .454 earlier than is believed.

-In a section on "New" Dupont IMR powders, they say 4227, 4198, 3031, 4320, 4064 have the same burning characteristics as discontinued powders but "do not contain any incorporated metal since cupro-nickel metal-cased bullets have been pretty generally supplanted by projectiles jacketed with gilding metal."

I took this to mean the "old" Dupont powders must have had some metallic agent in them that was meant to help reduce or remove cupro-nickel fouling. Anyone know?

-Don't reload cases that were used with mercuric primers as the brass will be brittle. They particuarly warned of WWI surplus .30-06 brass. (probably not much of an issue today.)

-The hardness of the lead alloy you cast from should be determined by the TWIST RATE of the barrel you want to shoot them out of. I thought this was a good point since we tend to think only in terms of pressures when we talk alloy hardness.

-It wasn't "practical" to reload for automatic (semi-automatic) arms. I think this was due to the presses and tools they had at the time and the fact you couldn't full length resize the cases.

-Apparently they had a special tool to resize .45 Auto cases to allow you to reload them. (an exception to my above notation.)

-SISK bullets were for sale in calibers like 22-300 Lovell, 22 Neider, and 22 Express. I know they weren't cast but what was a SISK bullet? I'm guessing maybe they were a small bullet house of the day that is now gone.

-And my final observation (for now). B&M placed a big emphasis on reduced cast bullet loads for high-powered rifles. They claimed full-power jacketed rifle loads would wear out a barrel (which is indeed true and probably moreso in the days of cupro-nickel jackets).

They claimed there were basically three concepts in rifle reloading:
-High power loads with jacketed bullets and progressive burning military powders
-"accurate" rounds with gas-checked lead bullets and moderate charges of "bulk" smokeless powder for ranges up to 600 yards.
-target and small game rounds with light charges of powders

Funny how much our perspectives on reloading and shooting change over time. Reading this book was very enlightening. I know I posted a lot of stuff here and it doesn't all relate to cast boolits. I thought it might make for an interesting discussion since cast boolit shooters are pretty knowledgable.

Jason
(hope you aren't asleep by the time you read the end of this.)

[BruceB]

Well, THIS is gonna get me on shaky ground, but it's not really all that bad (I hope):

A re-worded and very impolite "barracks" version of an old song called, I suppose, "Golden Wedding Day" or something like it, had one verse which went:

"Put on that old blue ointment...

The crabs' dis-appointment...

And we'll kill those bast--ds where they lay.....

Put your a-- in clover, let the boys look it over, ....

On our Golden Wedding Day."

The rest of the re-worded version was worse.....MUCH worse!

Blue ointment is?/was indeed a mercury-based unguent used for killing infestations of "mechanized dandruff", as I've heard them called. Of course, metallic (liquid) mercury has long been known as a fine way of removing lead from gun barrels, but its highly-poisonous nature makes it impractical to use and difficult to obtain nowadays. Funny, as recently as my high-school days in the late '50s, we PLAYED with the stuff, rubbing it onto copper pennies to give a silvery "dime" appearance, and dropping beads of the stuff on the floor to watch them "vanish". Maybe this is why I am the way I am, these days???

My mother told me of her involvement in a successful prank involving the introduction of hydrogen sulphide into her school's ventilation system...another poisonous substance. I worked for many years in a building full of heavy machinery, which created a LOT of vibration, and that building was insulated with six inches of UNCOVERED sprayed-on asbestos fiber. All of which goes to show that, even if I seem normal right now, watch out 'cuz I'm liable to either "go postal" or kick the bucket at any moment.

The pre-IMR powders often had tin as a component.

Mercuric primers did indeed "embrittle" brass cases when the mercuric salts chemically-altered the brass, which is why such heavy advertising emphasis was placed on non-mercuric/non-corrosive primers when they arrived on the market. Such names as Remington's "Kleanbore" originated at that same time. Note that a non-mercuric primer could still be extremely corrosive due to chlorates in the primer mix.

Sisk was an early bulletmaker, specializing in .22 varmint bullets. He was a contemporary with Vernon Speer and others of that vintage, to all of whom we still owe a debt of thanks for their work.

Thanks for posting this stuff, Jason. It's always interesting to look back at our roots.

[Char-Gar]

Sisk was a one man bullet making operation in Iowa Park Texas. Ralph was his name and he made every bullet by hand on single stage presses with Bahler and Astels dies. He specialized in 22 cal bullets including of the heavy .228 caliber bullets used by Ackley and others in wildcat rounds.

I used a number of his bullets in a 22 Savage High Power...I think I still have a box or two somewhere.

Handloading was a much smaller enterprise a generation or two ago. Most folks who reloaded were pretty much gun nuts and serious about the craft.

The casual reloader who knew very little about what he was doing, and just wants to throw together a mess of cheap ammo quick is a recent creature.

In those days we were still a nation of riflemen who understood the windage, elevation and the craft of the spiral tube. They understood what a rifle sling was for and how to hit the target from all four postions. Camp Perry was the Mecca and everybody made the pilgrimage who could. The National Matches were the gathering of the faithful. Even a novice could draw a rifle and ammo and shoot..all paid for by the U.S. Goverment. You could even buy the rifle from the Goverment after the match if you wanted to take it home. Many went to Camp Perry just for the opportunity to buy a National Match rifle.

In my time in shooting and reloading (I started reloading in 1958) I have seen a sea change in the nature of the folks involved. This is the reason I have such deep apprecation for this board. The folks that hang out here are serious gun nuts and persue knowledge in the craft.

Your Belding and Mull book harkens back to another day in the history of shooting in the country. Times were different, people were different, but the rifles still went bang and the bullet headed downrange more or less under the control of the shooter.

[NVcurmudgeon]

I wonder if "blue ointment" is the same as ammoniated mercury? As a first or second grader I had a skin disease called impetigo. The barbaric treatment was to scrub the scabs off your face with tincture of green soap, then smear on the ammoniated mercury. (This was a treatment no doubt used by Dr. Stephen Maturin, of Royal Navy fame.) Of course, I would avoid the painful scrub and green soap part and skip straight to the ammoniated mercury. I never got away with that one! Luckily, I only caught impetigo twice. The probable source was drinking fountains at school. I, too, played with mercury. My mother was always nice enough to give us broken thermometers. The expression "mad as a hatter" is from the paractice of using mercury as part of the process of making felt hats. We didn't know that everything could kill us, and there were fewer lawyers, so we all survived and had fun.

[beagle]

Indeed we've lost some of the knowledge of these old pioneers. If you read Ear Namore, even though his book was written in the 1920s, much of the information is still pertinent today.

Obviously, the powders and primers have changed and the reloading tools are in another dimension but it's still a good read. Also look for C.S. Landis, F.C Ness, and Philip Sharpe to mention a few.

I've been reading Practical Dope on The .22 by Ness for the last few weeks. It's a must for anyone interested in varmint hunting as it takes the .22 WCF and sets down the technological improvemnts all the way through the .22-250 and .220 Swift. Ever heard of a .22 Marciante Bluestreak? It was a pretty healthy Swift competitor back in those days.

Those boys had a lot of knowledge and darn little equipment and of course, the war shortages go hold of them as well. Sisk was the pioneer jacketed bullet production guy in those days.

Much mention is made of H. Guy Louverin and his #225438 which was in pretty wide use on groundhogs during the war as there were darn few jacketed bullets.

These are interesting old refernce books if and when you can find them./beagle


Guys,
In an earlier post I mentioned reading a Belding & Mull Hand Book from 1941. I made some notes that I wanted to ask here on this board.

Maybe the B&M book was quite detailed in it's time, but after reading it, I got the impression that the reloader of the Pre-WWII era was pretty technically astute. I read some stuff in there that makes me think we've lost some knowledge as a whole as trends in shooting and guns change.

Enough of that here's some stuff maybe you guys can comment on:

-To clean lead fouling they recommended scrubbing your bore with "blue ointment" from the drug store. What was "blue ointment"? Mercury perhaps? (in hind sight, some of their ideas weren't maybe so good)

-Scope reticles were referred to as "graticules". Yes it is in the dictionary.

-In a table of bore dimensions, .44-40 was listed as "old" being .424 with "new" dimensions at .427. Funny how the old tight bores are a mystery to gun scribes today. Seemed to be common knowledge then.

Also, 45 Colt was listed as .452. Maybe Colt tightened their bores from .454 earlier than is believed.

-In a section on "New" Dupont IMR powders, they say 4227, 4198, 3031, 4320, 4064 have the same burning characteristics as discontinued powders but "do not contain any incorporated metal since cupro-nickel metal-cased bullets have been pretty generally supplanted by projectiles jacketed with gilding metal."

I took this to mean the "old" Dupont powders must have had some metallic agent in them that was meant to help reduce or remove cupro-nickel fouling. Anyone know?

-Don't reload cases that were used with mercuric primers as the brass will be brittle. They particuarly warned of WWI surplus .30-06 brass. (probably not much of an issue today.)

-The hardness of the lead alloy you cast from should be determined by the TWIST RATE of the barrel you want to shoot them out of. I thought this was a good point since we tend to think only in terms of pressures when we talk alloy hardness.

-It wasn't "practical" to reload for automatic (semi-automatic) arms. I think this was due to the presses and tools they had at the time and the fact you couldn't full length resize the cases.

-Apparently they had a special tool to resize .45 Auto cases to allow you to reload them. (an exception to my above notation.)

-SISK bullets were for sale in calibers like 22-300 Lovell, 22 Neider, and 22 Express. I know they weren't cast but what was a SISK bullet? I'm guessing maybe they were a small bullet house of the day that is now gone.

-And my final observation (for now). B&M placed a big emphasis on reduced cast bullet loads for high-powered rifles. They claimed full-power jacketed rifle loads would wear out a barrel (which is indeed true and probably moreso in the days of cupro-nickel jackets).

They claimed there were basically three concepts in rifle reloading:
-High power loads with jacketed bullets and progressive burning military powders
-"accurate" rounds with gas-checked lead bullets and moderate charges of "bulk" smokeless powder for ranges up to 600 yards.
-target and small game rounds with light charges of powders

Funny how much our perspectives on reloading and shooting change over time. Reading this book was very enlightening. I know I posted a lot of stuff here and it doesn't all relate to cast boolits. I thought it might make for an interesting discussion since cast boolit shooters are pretty knowledgable.

Jason
(hope you aren't asleep by the time you read the end of this.)

[felix]

Ah! Yes!, Beagle. True to my heart of years gone by. Al Marciante.... One of them few folks who shot the very first BR match. An excellent gunsmith, he and Harvey Donaldson were at each other's throats on who was the best. Harvey came up with the 219 Wasp and that round proved so successful that Al just got the reamer and rammed it in deeper making his BlueStreak for a few grains more (capacity). Now, you know the rest of the story. ... felix

[onceabull]

The old Blue ointment referred to is not Ammoniated Mercury Oint.,or Yellow Mercuric Oxide Opthalmic Ointment, both of which were still available on demand after 1957: Can't say precisely when ,but blue ointment was gone from US Rx shelves by the time I had to know why.. not by personal experience, but I would rather push it down a rifles barrel than anoint my body with it.! ! Onceabull

[felix]

Cured athlete's foot, and pronto! Not tomorrow, but right now! If it works, take it off of the market, right? Can't be as nearly as dangerous as current day cancer treatments. ... felix

[Maven]

Jason, Anyone who launches or seeks to launch lead projectiles from a Swedish Mauser has experienced or will soon discover the relationship between BHN and rate of twist!!

[ddixie884]

Thanx, JRD, I apreciate it.

[NVcurmudgeon]

The old Blue ointment referred to is not Ammoniated Mercury Oint.,or Yellow Mercuric Oxide Opthalmic Ointment, both of which were still available on demand after 1957: Can't say precisely when ,but blue ointment was gone from US Rx shelves by the time I had to know why.. not by personal experience, but I would rather push it down a rifles barrel than anoint my body with it.! ! Onceabull


Thanks, Bill. I forgot we had our own RX guy.

[9.3X62AL]

Great post, Jason. I agree that there is much lost information out there, and this board seems to be a collection point for the accumulators and storage site for the material.

As to the 45 Colt nominal groove diameter and its timeline of change from .454" to .452", I suspect it began sometime around WWI--but took on greater momentum as our armories and gunmakers started ramping up for war production in the late 1930's. Such a mobilization would cause such "oddball" barrel dimensions like the .454" Colt to fall by the wayside as the massive numbers of 45 ACP barrels at .451"-.452" took precedence on the tooling.

The "early" 44-40 WCF diameter of .424" was a little surprising to me. Didn't know about that one. My 1897 vintage Win '73 has a .429" throat with groove around .4285". It saw a LOT of use during the days of both corrosive priming and at least some exposure to black powder. The bore is worn, but not a sewer pipe.

[brimic]

They claimed there were basically three concepts in rifle reloading:
-High power loads with jacketed bullets and progressive burning military powders
-"accurate" rounds with gas-checked lead bullets and moderate charges of "bulk" smokeless powder for ranges up to 600 yards.
-target and small game rounds with light charges of powders

Whaaa? I thought reloading was for trying to squeaze every last fps out of a rifle so that you can have the potential to shoot that elk 3 hills away even if you've never fired your rifle more than 100 yards in practice. :-P


"mechanized dandruff"
Thats a gooder. I'll have to remember that one.

[brimic]

Speaking of mercury, do any of you old timers know what was in Mercurochrome? If its what it sounds like, it might explain why I'm so twitchy after having that stuff swabbed on my skinned knees often enough as a kid. :hijack:

[fourarmed]

"Bulk Smokeless" was an early smokeless powder (or family of powders) that was loaded to the same volume as black. I believe it was primarily intended for shotgun shells, as are many of the best cast boolit powders available today.

[StarMetal]

MERCUROCHROME TINCTURE

The form of mercurochrome that is found in medicine cabinets is Mercurochrome Tincture which is nothing more than diluted merbromin. It is merbromin (usually only 2%) disolved in either alcohol, acetone, water or a combination of the afore mentioned. If you remember mercurochrome as a stinging antiseptic, you'll be interested to know that the alcohol and acetone tinctures of mercurochrome stings wounds whereas the water based mercurochrome tinctures do not.

mer·bro·min http://img.tfd.com/hm/pron.gif (javascript:play('M0223800')) (mhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gifr-brhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/omacr.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifmhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gifn) n. A green crystalline organic compound, C20H8Br2HgNa2O6, that forms a red aqueous solution, used as a germicide and antiseptic.



Joe

[PatMarlin]

The hardness of the lead alloy you cast from should be determined by the TWIST RATE of the barrel you want to shoot them out of. I thought this was a good point since we tend to think only in terms of pressures when we talk alloy hardness.


Any specs on this? What hardness to what twist?

[moodyholler]

I had a 25 lb crock bottle of Mercury from my Dad's old shop and couldn't figuire out how to get rid of it. In our city last year they had a dangerous materials collection point. I drove up and handed this guy the jug and he snatched it up grinning the whole time. I wonder what he wanted it for? It sure didn't make it to the tent they had set up to collect the stuff. that stuff sure would clean the bore of a dirty rifle. moodyholler

[floodgate]

Al:

'The "early" 44-40 WCF diameter of .424" was a little surprising to me. Didn't know about that one.'

I had a Merwin, Hulbert & Co. 3rd Model DA "for 1873 Ctg." (i.e., .44-40) which slugged 0.424", so that may have been an early standard groove diameter. The early Ideal HB's (I'm looking at a reprint of No. 5 from 1894) also lists 0.424" for this round in "Win., Colt's & Marlin." Incidentally, twists were 1:20" for Winchester, 1:28" for Colt and 1:36" (!) for Marlin in the same reference, so they were just as confused back then as Winchester, Marlin and the many clones are today.

floodgate

[9.3X62AL]

Moody--

Depends on where 'the guy" worked--but if he worked for the toxic waste disposal company, he was grinning because of the FAT, DECADENT BILL the city would get stuck with to dispose of the stuff. Mercury is just slightly less difficult and expensive to dispose of properly than nuclear waste, per the HazMat guys I worked with while doing drug labs a few years back. That 25# of mercury likely cost several thousand dollars to dispose of--unless they could find a licensed end-user that would accept it. Either way, the handling agency is going to make a TON of money.

[JRD]

Useful information all. Only on this forum will you find such stuff.

Sounds like the Blue Ointment question is answered. I suppose I'd rather put it in bore than on my skin too!

What would the tin in pre-IMR powders do? Did it somehow react with the jacket fouling?

Chargar you are probably correct that the handloader of old was a very astute man. I think the books and publications of yesteryear are more technical. There are plenty of good books today but a lot of stuff seems watered down.

I just picked up a new book to read. "The Complete Guide to Handloading" by Sharpe. Just had a chance to skim it a bit. Looks like it will be a good read and a look back in history. Coincidently, I got this book second hand from Lee Jurras of Supervel and Automag fame.

On the twist rate versus alloy hardness, B&M says:
-pure lead only good for old models of rifles (I take this to mean BP)
-20:1 says is good for slower than 1:14 unless velocity is very high
-10:1 recommended for faster twists
They also get into antimony/ tin alloys, but I don't want to rewrite the whole book here.

They mention being able to attain 2200 fps with gas checked cast bullets. Funny how they did it 60 years ago and someone does it now its a new discovery.

B&M also mentioned the importance of your bullet fitting the throat of your chamber.

One the groove diameters for .44-40. I've got an 1883 vintage Colt SAA. It's bore and cylinder ball ends all slug .425. The chambers are tight and I can't chamber a larger bullet. I've shot the gun sparingly with Lyman 42798's and black powder.

Also have a Win 1873 OBFMCB rifle made in 1883. I shoot that one somewhat reguarly with light smokeless. That one slugs at .4305. I size to .425 for the pistol and .430 for the rifle. Talk about a lack of standardization in the industry. God Bless SAAMI.

Theres a ton more stuff I could post that I noticed in the book. I should have taken more notes on it.

Oh, Chargar, speaking of the days of when we were a nation of Riflemen:
P. 64 a half page ad to join the NRA.
"Make This Nation Again a Nation of Riflemen".... Join the National Rifle Association.. and United States Revolver Association.

Seems they were bemoaning the fact that people didn't shoot as much anymore back before WWII. Again, perhaps something that we think is new phenomenon but has been about for a long time.

BTW, what happened to the USRA? Is it still around? Wasn't it started by S&W? It was located in Springfield, MA.

Jason

[Urny]

Try usra1.org

[Ross]

The autoloaders require a full length sizing usually. The Belding & Mull tools generally neck size. My first cigar box of B&M tools contained a drive-through sizer for .45 ACP cases. It was used with a hammer and push rod.
It was the -½ series of powders that contained tin, 15½, 17½ etc. Tinned jacketed bullets began to cold solder to the case necks, causing pressure mischief. Incorporating the tin into the powder helped with fouling, they thought.
Memories.
Ross