Charge weight

[duckey]

With the following info....what would be the proper charge of GOEX 2FG in a .54 cal flintlock?
Patched .530 soft lead 220 GN round ball
Douglas barel approx 40"

Thanks

My father finished building this rifle and we are not quite sure the proper load data.

[Pipefitter]

Target loads: 30-50 gr of black powder under a PRB
Deer loads: 60-90 gr of black under a PRB

Start at the low end and increase in 5 gr increments, the rifle will tell you which load it likes best. Also try different patch thicknesses, .015, .017, .020.

[duckey]

Thanks Pipefitter.

[Pipefitter]

As an afterthought, 2f or 3f for the target loads, 2f for the heavier loads...

[pietro]

.

BP loads/charges should not be weighed - the figures should be the volume increments etched into every BP measurement tool.

IOW, a 90gr charge is a volume measurement, and NOT a weight.

I first started loading for BP in 1967, and have never had a problem, with either loads or terminal performance, using volume measurements.


.

[duckey]

OK...I have a brass powder measure, its a two piece deal, starts at 50 grains and then each click (as you pull to extend the tube) is another 10 grains. I also have a small piece of deer antler I hollowed out that i'll use for a measure after etching in some charges i use.

[Omnivore]

.

BP loads/charges should not be weighed - the figures should be the volume increments etched into every BP measurement tool.

IOW, a 90gr charge is a volume measurement, and NOT a weight.

I first started loading for BP in 1967, and have never had a problem, with either loads or terminal performance, using volume measurements.

Oh Boy, not this again.

Black powder charges are always defined by weight. Black powder SUBSTITUTES, having far less density, are to replace black powder on a volume by volume basis. So if you're using, say, 60 grains of black powder and you want to try a substitute powder, you start with an equal volume of the substitute powder, without regard to the substitute powder's actual weight.

It's that simple, people. It all started so that when you're using a substitute, you can use the same spout or measure you were using for real black powder. Not only is it handy, it's safer than having to keep different field measures for the different powders. You know, because they might be confused with one another.

Of course we don't actually weigh each charge of real black. Well not usually anyway. That's not the point. We CAN however verify the accuracy of our field measures and flask spouts by weighing charges of real black thrown from them. See?

There is not, and never has been, any such thing as a "grain by volume" simply because the grain is a unit of weight. We use the substitute type powders on a volume basis-- a volume equal to the specified weight of real black powder.

For further study, see my treatise here, where I weigh several charges of different brands of real black powder to determine their density differences, to see if it is enough to simply say "black powder" when we are substituting by volume;
http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php?topic=9048.0

The short answer; Yes. At least when staying within the same granulation. I have yet to determine the differences in density between granulations, but then I'm already satisfied enough with what I have.

[Omnivore]

.

BP loads/charges should not be weighed - the figures should be the volume increments etched into every BP measurement tool.

IOW, a 90gr charge is a volume measurement, and NOT a weight.

I first started loading for BP in 1967, and have never had a problem, with either loads or terminal performance, using volume measurements.

Oh Boy, not this again.

Black powder charges are always defined by weight. Black powder SUBSTITUTES, having far less density, are to replace black powder on a volume by volume basis. So if you're using, say, 60 grains of black powder and you want to try a substitute powder, you start with an equal volume of the substitute powder, without regard to the substitute powder's actual weight.

It's that simple, people. It all started so that when you're using a substitute, you can use the same spout or measure you were using for real black powder. Not only is it handy, it's safer than having to keep different field measures for the different powders. You know, because they might be confused with one another.

Of course we don't actually weigh each charge of real black. Well not usually anyway. That's not the point. We CAN however verify the accuracy of our field measures and flask spouts by weighing charges of real black powder thrown from them. See?

There is not, and never has been, any such thing as a "grain by volume" simply because the grain is a unit of weight. We use the substitute type powders on a volume basis-- a volume equal to that volume of the specified weight of real black powder.

For further study, see my treatise here, where I weigh several charges of different brands of real black powder to determine their density differences, to see if it is enough to simply say "black powder" when we are substituting by volume;
http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php?topic=9048.0

The short answer; Yes. At least when staying within the same granulation. I have yet to determine the differences in density between granulations, but then I'm already satisfied enough with what I have.

[duckey]

Thanks for the info guys. Just for conversation sake....if you measure out a powder be it black or substitute then how do you identify it....are we talking about CC's like lee dippers?

[duckey]

OZ, grahms?

[pietro]

Oh Boy, not this again.

Black powder charges are always defined by weight. Black powder SUBSTITUTES, having far less density, are to replace black powder on a volume by volume basis. So if you're using, say, 60 grains of black powder and you want to try a substitute powder, you start with an equal volume of the substitute powder, without regard to the substitute powder's actual weight.

It's that simple, people. It all started so that when you're using a substitute, you can use the same spout or measure you were using for real black powder. Not only is it handy, it's safer than having to keep different field measures for the different powders. You know, because they might be confused with one another.

Of course we don't actually weigh each charge of real black. Well not usually anyway. That's not the point. We CAN however verify the accuracy of our field measures and flask spouts by weighing charges of real black thrown from them. See?

There is not, and never has been, any such thing as a "grain by volume" simply because the grain is a unit of weight. We use the substitute type powders on a volume basis-- a volume equal to the specified weight of real black powder.

For further study, see my treatise here, where I weigh several charges of different brands of real black powder to determine their density differences, to see if it is enough to simply say "black powder" when we are substituting by volume;
http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php?topic=9048.0

The short answer; Yes. At least when staying within the same granulation. I have yet to determine the differences in density between granulations, but then I'm already satisfied enough with what I have.



I'd be interested to hear your explanation as to exactly why there's an entire industry that manufactures black powder (volume) measures, w/o a scale in sight for most BP shooters.



.

[waksupi]

I have never in 42 years weighed a charge of BP for a muzzle loader.

[Boogieman]

The markings on most BP measures will be very close to the weight of that volume of black powder I don't know anyone that weighs each load of BP in their ML guns. I do use a powder scale when making measures As for the OP's question I use 50-65 gr for targets & 90-100 gr for hunting. That's in a 42" GM barrel , 1 in 70" twist some barrels like 3f better {slow twist ones} You might want to try a ,535 " ball Douglas barrels have deep grooves.

[dondiego]

I have never in 42 years weighed a charge of BP for a muzzle loader.

No, me neither........but you could have done so, it just would have taken longer. I don't weigh each of my smokeless pistol loads either. I carefully verify what the drum is throwing though.

[Hanshi]

Black powder was meant to be used by volumetric measurement. Scales were virtually unknown until the 20th century and even today ML shooters don't normally carry scales around with them. While weight & volume are close with black powder, weight can vary with lots and grade not to mention brand.

[Boogieman]

In the Gun Digest BP loading manual Sam Fadala tested 2 different brands of BP measures. From 40 to 120 gr. in 10gr. steps. They were within 1.5gr. max. error with 2f powder & 2.0gr. of 3f. Most were less than 1gr. off their marked weight. The exact weight of the load is less important than uniformity from load to load.

[Omnivore]

I'd be interested to hear your explanation as to exactly why there's an entire industry that manufactures black powder (volume) measures, w/o a scale in sight for most BP shooters

Yes; that’s the case now and I suppose it always has been the case. Doesn’t change the fact that there is no definition of a “grain by volume”. Boogieman seems to have answered that question pretty well also.

The point is that the grain (one seven thousandth of a pound) is a unit of weight. Scales have been around for thousands of years, long before the invention of gunpowder. Whether someone ever uses a scale in their life is beside the point. A grain "by volume" has no definition in and of itself, unless we specify a grain (by weight, because there's no other kind of grain) of a particular substance and then measure its volume.

For muzzleloaders, that substance is black powder, and so a grain "by volume" of black powder weighs one grain. If you want to actually know how many grains your "volumetric" measure throws, you use a scale and weigh some real black powder from it.

No point in making a puzzle out of it, because it's entirely simple.

The confusion started when substitute powders were introduced. Otherwise we'd all know exactly what a grain is (1/7000th of a pound) even though most of us don't use scales, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Of course anyone is free to use any unit of measure they like (cubic centimeters, grams, metric tons, cubic light years, etc., to describe the amount of powder they are using, but the standard in most English speaking countries is the grain. The dram (one sixteenth of an ounce) is also acceptable, though it's becoming archaic.

If you insist on using the term "grains by volume" then please define it.

WHAT IS a grain by volume? Gotchya, see, because the only way you can truly define it is "that volume of black powder which weighs one grain".

[Omnivore]

None of you read my linked article either, did you?

[Omnivore]

Since there is all this never-ending confusion over the definition of the grain (a unit of weight) I suggest we all go to using a purely volumetric unit. The cubic light year (that distance that light travels in one year, cubed). Thus what we used to call a 60 grain charge we can now say is 70.8606396 x 10 to the minus 54th power cubic light years. (Google is awesome)
That way, it won't matter whether we're talking about a substitute powder or black powder, because it's the same volume without regard to any unit of weight. Lee sells a set of dippers graduated in CCs, which are easily converted into cubic light years (being that both the cubic centimeter and the cubic light year are units of volume).

Problem solved.

[Boogieman]

W hen I buy a can of BP it says 1 pound , a measure of weight , I load it using a measure with a volume that holds the weight of BP I want. Seems simple enough to me. If I need to know how much an unknown volume measure throws I weigh it.

[Boogieman]

None of you read my linked article either, did you?
In your linked post you said that Lee 's powder could be used with BP I just checked their website, their instructions says do not use BP.
.

[fouronesix]

In your linked post you said that Lee 's powder could be used with BP I just checked their website, their instructions says do not use BP.
.

I agree with Omnivore! So I won't repeat the posts that explain it, nor delve any further into the discussion of the volume equivalent charges for the substitutes!!!

Lee, early on, got off on the "going cheap" and straight forward "easy" route so they came up with the Lee dippers in CCs and the load data using CCs. There is no reason you can't use a Lee dipper to measure BP in CCs if that is your chosen unit of measure. The only problem with going down the "volume" road is it will make little sense to the vast majority of reloaders- smokeless or BP. The most universal unit of measure for powder is grains…. period. Using a universal language allows for universal understanding and communication. Simple as that!

As far as what is a good load for a 54 cal shooting a PRB? I'd just start at about 54 grains of FF or FFF BP and work up. But I could have said something like, "start with about 3.7 CCs (cubic centimeters) of FF BP and work up". Or, "start with about .2258 CIs (cubic inches) of FF BP and work up"….. And so on and so forth.

[doc1876]

I have never in 42 years weighed a charge of BP for a muzzle loader.


43 for me, and I have fired everything from .36 cal pocket models to a 23 lb parrot rifle (cannon), and not once have I weighed a charge. never blown anything up, and I still have all of my fingers and toes.

[fouronesix]

Interesting perspectives about not knowing what amount of charge- whether it be a volume or weight. Would that be half a shot glass of BP or two thimbles full or a small brass cylinder full or just enough to cover a roundball in the palm or the 5 1/2 tic mark on the adjustable measure or what?

That leads back to the question in the OP- what would be a good charge to start off with in a 54 cal shooting a PRB?

I too never weigh ML charges during shooting a ML, but I sure as heck know how much powder goes into whatever measure I'm using by weighing it on a scale. Once I've settled on the best charge (in grains) for whatever ML and projectile type I'm shooting, I write that down in my load log, and if in a fixed type measure, mark it on the measure. If using an adjustable measure I also know about how much BP is dropped at each tic or number mark.

If someone asks me, "how much powder you using" I can say, "about 62 grains of FF" or whatever the charge may be for whatever ML and load I'm shooting.

[crossxsticks]

Interesting perspectives about not knowing what amount of charge- whether it be a volume or weight. Would that be half a shot glass of BP or two thimbles full or a small brass cylinder full or just enough to cover a roundball in the palm or the 5 1/2 tic mark on the adjustable measure or what?

That leads back to the question in the OP- what would be a good charge to start off with in a 54 cal shooting a PRB?

I too never weigh ML charges during shooting a ML, but I sure as heck know how much powder goes into whatever measure I'm using by weighing it on a scale. Once I've settled on the best charge (in grains) for whatever ML and projectile type I'm shooting, I write that down in my load log, and if in a fixed type measure, mark it on the measure. If using an adjustable measure I also know about how much BP is dropped at each tic or number mark.

If someone asks me, "how much powder you using" I can say, "about 62 grains of FF" or whatever the charge may be for whatever ML and load I'm shooting.

Yep me to . like you say i dont weigh powder but i know how much powder it is by weight.
to try and answer the op question ? the way i would load a 54 to start with I would start with 54 grains of ffg then add 5 g @ a load till it went to slinging balls then back it down till it shot good again then that would be my load. what U think ?

[doc1876]

the old rule of thumb was to place the projectile in your palm, then slowly cover it with your powder. as soon as it was covered, this was your charge. Now take that and pour it into one of the charge measures, and this would tell you how many grains.
Now make an antler tip measure using this amount for the size of hole you put in the antler tip. This will give you an idea of the grain amount, and the the same time, you always use the same amount (yes I know in volume) for your shooting.

[waksupi]

the old rule of thumb was to place the projectile in your palm, then slowly cover it with your powder. as soon as it was covered, this was your charge. Now take that and pour it into one of the charge measures, and this would tell you how many grains.
Now make an antler tip measure using this amount for the size of hole you put in the antler tip. This will give you an idea of the grain amount, and the the same time, you always use the same amount (yes I know in volume) for your shooting.

I experimented with that method years ago. I found that you would end up with a very light load, that is suitable for a starting charge.

[scattershot]

Ignore all the rhetoric, amd use a volumetric measure set at 90 grains for hunting, amd about half that for target and plinking. Dunno why folks try to make this so hard.

[fouronesix]

the old rule of thumb was to place the projectile in your palm, then slowly cover it with your powder. as soon as it was covered, this was your charge. Now take that and pour it into one of the charge measures, and this would tell you how many grains.
Now make an antler tip measure using this amount for the size of hole you put in the antler tip. This will give you an idea of the grain amount, and the the same time, you always use the same amount (yes I know in volume) for your shooting.

Have heard that old baloney since I've been muzzleloading! Makes for a good yarn I guess. Big hand or small hand? Cupped hand or flat hand? Fat hand or skinny hand? :)

Here's a few of my measures. Two on the left are adjustable- click and set screw type. Two on the right are fixed, simple brass tubes with antler and wood plugs- 78 gr FF and 85 gr FF.

[waksupi]

Ignore all the rhetoric, amd use a volumetric measure set at 90 grains for hunting, amd about half that for target and plinking. Dunno why folks try to make this so hard.

That is a poor way to go about it. A rifle will have one most accurate load. Find that load, and use it for all purposes. Old timers on the range get a good giggle at those shooting different loads for different ranges. I never have seen one of those types finishing in the top competitors.

[scattershot]

I agree with that, but the OP asked for the proper charge For A .54 caliber flintlock. That's as good a starting point as any.

[doc1876]

I didn't say I do it. I personally think it is not very accurate, I just thought I'd throw it out.

[mooman76]

I like the grains even per caliber. Some people have a hissy over it but I actually do but just for a starting point and go up from there. Half the caliber for pistols and small bore rifles like 32 & 36.