Tell me I am not crazy...and my plan might work

[guywitha3006]

Hello,

Just a warning its wordy... please bear with me, there is a lot of knowledge and experience on this forum and I appreciate any help I can get.

I have been casting and reloading for a few years now and after spending too much time in this section of the forum I decided to dip my toe in the swaging pool. I would eventually like to swage affordable and quality (hopefully not completely mutually exclusive) 9mm, .38, .45 acp, .30(168/175 and heavy weights for subsonic suppressor use) and may be .224 and .40 (not likely anytime soon, no .40/10mm in the safe or plans on getting one).

I decided to start buying buying a CH4D 9mm die (few weeks for delivery). I have a Rock Chucker so that will be the press for now; trying to dip my toe into swaging not belly flop off the high dive price wise right away). I plan on using a combination of commercial jackets (looking at jackets from rceco, as they seem the cheapest right now) and hopefully fired cases. Here is where I am asking for a sanity check... I came across a youtube video (link at the bottom) showing how to use bullets cast of pure lead, placing them in an annealed .380 auto case and using a 223 sizing die to "swage" the core into place, the author then runs them through a lee push through die to give them a final size of .358" or so for use in .38 special/.357 mag. I am hoping that I can do his first step but then rather then run them through a lee size die, I want to run them through the soon to be here 9mm die (.358 is hopefully close enough to .355 it will work). I also started to look around for core/ appropriate bullet molds and came across the Lee 00 buckshot mold, they cast 18 ~53 grain .330" balls per cast. My thought was run the mold HOT and the pure lead HOTTER. This would give me a 53 grain core + ~63 grain case for a total weight of 116 grains. this would perfectly fit my need for affordable 9mm range ammo. In my eyes the only way I could make this better (besides better equipment down the road) is to have the ability to turn 9mm brass into the .355" bullets, but one problem at a time.

On a side note as funds repopulate I am hoping to get a dedicated Sea Girt press, other dies, and hopefully some .30 caliber dies from BT Sniper (probably not until at least next year, due to a future reloading/shooting apprentice soon to make their initial appearance).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEUjEEQM4jo

Thanks for reading and thanks in advance for any help!

Guywitha3006

[runfiverun]

a 380's outer case diameter is more like 375 not 357.

swaging stuff is a study in figuring case/jacket internal volume and figuring out a core.
if you start using cases to make jackets from you generally end up running them through a series of draw dies.
these draw the outer diameter of the case down to a useable diameter.
then you insert the core.
then point form.
inserting the core swages the case diameter UP.
then the point form die swages it UP again.

sometimes you get lucky and things kinda work out by using a size die or a reloading die to make some bullets with.
this is generally a temporary situation,,, then something bends or breaks.

[guywitha3006]

runfiverun, thanks for the reply, I kind of figured my thought would be to easy to work. What are my options for draw dies, ideally 9mm brass into .355" jackets? Trying not to break the bank, to figure out if swaging is a new hobby I want to dive into.

[goblism]

For 366 and 357 jackets I have used a lee taper die for 9mm, I can't remember if it would work with 9mm/355 bullets though

I would consider getting the walnut hill press from the get go as well as you can do a lot more with it

[guywitha3006]

goblism, besides the price difference and the face the walnut hill can be used a reloading press is there any other feature it has that the Sea Girt does not? To say I am a novice is understatement, I have multiple single stage presses and a progressive so paying an extra $150 if being reloading press does not seem to make sense. My main use will be pistol bullet (up to 230 .45 ACP) and eventually rifle bullets up to 240 grain .30 calibers. This is not as simple and inexpensive step up from casting I was expecting. But I am still excited to try it... as long as it does not draw to much attention from the wife lol!

[runfiverun]

I think BT sniper has a draw down set that will take 9mm down to being useable as 30 caliber jackets.
you may have to anneal them along the way to make the 30 cal jackets.
you'd have to trim them to make 9m bullets.
the best case to use I think would be the 32 acp cases, which ain't easy to find.

or to just buy the jackets, a core squirt die, and a way to make the cores.
I use a 140gr 8mm mold to make 3/4 jacket cores for my 158gr [ish] 357's.
a core squirt die would make my weights more consistent, and I could adjust the weights up and down instead of getting what I get.
I could then use a different jacket and lower the weight to about 120 grs.
in some of the dies you can change the nose shape so that a full wad cutter, a semi-wad cutter, and a round nose profile are all possible from the same die.

[Sasquatch-1]

Check with "varmint243". He recently started swaging for .357 bullets using 9MM brass. He made a set of draw dies using easily obtained material and an arbor press from harbor freight. His swaging die however is a dedicated semi wad cutter swaging die.

[clodhopper]

I have a set of BTSniper 9mm to .30 swage dies. From 9 to 30 is five steps. Each step is, anneal, clean, swage. I have been using the stainless steel pin cleaning method because jacket cleanliness is next to die longevity. After doing more than 1000 jackets this way RECCO jackets have much appeal.
By using a more powerful press (like hydraulic) it would be possible to bring a 9mm case to 30 in one pass, but keeping your jacket concentric would be difficult.
With a drawing die like BTs from .380 case to .357 jacket is one step. From 9mm case to .357 jacket is two steps.
If cheap jackets is your goal, look for a .375 rifle. .223 cases are real close as ejected on the ground.
A person would just need to trim the case to bullet length, run a punch in to make core seat punch fit, seat the core, form the point, and relish the recoil!
If a guy had a .375 rifle, how about just taking a fired .380 auto case as a bullet, small charge of fast powder for small game and plinking ammo?

[Cane_man]

9mm auto to 7mm jacket for rifle is a 6 step draw for me, with 3 anneals, no trimming required, makes very good 135gr 7mm rifle bullets... you can see where i did it here in this thread:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?210129-Making-30-Cal-Dies&p=2449582&viewfull=1#post2449582

[Ballistics in Scotland]

If you want to do anything that requires special swaging dies you can't make for yourself, the cost of jackets is very little by comparison. A strong reloading press like the Rockchucker can do two sorts of job about as well as anything.

It can make pistol bullets with jackets which cover only a little more than the cylindrical surface, using a single relatively simple die. If you want to use fired pistol cases as jackets, I would confine it to those which don't require reduction of the solid head. That about limits it to .380 cases for low-velocity .375 rifle bullets, .32 S&W or .32ACP for .338 rifle of the same description, or .41 cases for .45. In the last case the very slight reduction for .45LC or ACP should be possible, or leave at .457 for .45 rifles.

It can also do about all that is required to make any kind of .22 centrefire bullet, including pointed ones, from .22 rimfire cases. The bullets will shoot about as well as any, at all but the highest velocities, but they will be too frangible for use on most game, and the dieset for pointed bullets is likely to be expensive. You would find the Corbin catalogue well worth studying.

http://www.corbins.com/index.htm

[tiger762]

The CH4D die set is a good place to start. I have two of theirs in 38 and 44. When one pursues it "cheap" one finds oneself tolerating some miserable conditions:

1. Multiple draws/anneals/cleanings to draw down fired pistol brass to usable jacket diameter.
2. Using dies on a reloading press, with less than adequate mechanical advantage for all but turning 22LR into 223.
3. Using dies that were meant for a reloading press, having to use a rubber mallet to eject each piece after each step.

The bullets I've seen swaged using a full-length rifle sizer die, look like a$$. The shoulder angle is too steep. I have a 45cal truncate cone die set with an 18 degree half-angle. If I had to do it again, I'd again buy the Walnut Hill, real gilding metal jackets and real swage dies.

Pay once, cry once.



Thanks for reading and thanks in advance for any help!
Guywitha3006

[runfiverun]

clodhoppers last sentence there is something I plan to pursue at some point.
I have 2 375 rifles and they do right well with 200 to 275 gr bullets.
[like I need another project]
but a simple die set should do the job and keep the bullet weights low enough to use in my 375 pistol too.

[guywitha3006]

Thanks everyone for the info. I have come to the realization that the more time spent on this forum the less money I have... but I will start saving money one of these days. lol.

I have been talking with Richard Corbin and I think I am leaning towards his Sea Girt press so I can start swaging sooner rather then later. if I can come up with a bit of extra cash in the next few weeks or there is reason enough to justify the extra cost of a Walnut press.

[Sasquatch-1]

Did you mean to .40 S&W here as opposed to .45 LC. I would think the removal of the rim would be difficult and the cost to obtain the 45 colt would be prohibitive.


or .41 cases for .45. In the last case the very slight reduction for .45LC or ACP should be possible, or leave at .457 for .45 rifles.

[clodhopper]

Runfiverun, .380 brass with lead swaged into it would make good light bullets.
But my thought was to just use an empty case for the projectile, should be fine for four legged garden raiders with mouse fart charges of powder.

[goblism]

goblism, besides the price difference and the face the walnut hill can be used a reloading press is there any other feature it has that the Sea Girt does not? To say I am a novice is understatement, I have multiple single stage presses and a progressive so paying an extra $150 if being reloading press does not seem to make sense. My main use will be pistol bullet (up to 230 .45 ACP) and eventually rifle bullets up to 240 grain .30 calibers. This is not as simple and inexpensive step up from casting I was expecting. But I am still excited to try it... as long as it does not draw to much attention from the wife lol!
The big advantage I see with the walnut hill is the ability to use the press in reloading mode. The reloading mode allows for a different stroke length and for some of my reloading style dies I have found the additional height of the reloading mode to beneficial. The walnut hill is also a more heavy duty press and will handle some of the larger bullets with ease. The sea girt should handle heavy 30 cal bullets but the walnut hill will handle them even better. I thought hard about the sea girt when I bought my walnut hill. In the end Richard convinced me to buy the walnut hill as I was considering doing 475 bullets in the future. I don't know where I will be in 10 years in my shooting but if a 50 cal ever comes my way I will be very thankful for the walnut hill. Than again if I go that route I may want a hydraulic press!

One thing I want to bring to attention is the type of swaging dies. I would encourage you to start with CH4D dies as it is a cheaper way to get into this area of firearms. You will quickly find that the reloading style is simply not the most efficient route to swage bullets. Once you know that you are interested in longer term swaging I would look into buying some REAL swage dies. Corbin, RCECO, BSSP, etc. where it is not a nancy rigged reloading press but an auto ejecting system designed for swaging in a real press. Yes there are some match grade reloading style press dies out there, the ones that are most interesting to me are well outside of my financial abilities so I am not going to worry about them.

On the topic of cases for jackets. For the most part buying jackets is nearly as cost effective as making them from bullet casings. Like another member said, by the time you size down the cases to the final size you could spend several hundred dollars. RCECO sells jackets very reasonable. The only calibers I use brass for is my 44 mag (abundance of cheap 40 S&W casings), some 45 (again abundant, although real jackets are not much more), 224 (22 RF), and my 366 bullets from 223 brass (unable to locate jackets of appropriate length commercially). A lot of members like to use 380 brass for 355-357 bullets. Sell that 380 brass to a member who will reload it and use the funds to buy real jackets! You will have a superior product for the same price. 380 brass is worth $0.07-0.10 per piece, 355 jackets are $45-60 per thousand. Even by the time you ship out your 380 brass and ship in your jackets you will come out about the same!

I think that 380 brass for 355 jackets would be worth knowing about in a SHTF era, but in all reality that risk is pretty low. I do have a corbin 45 jacket make from 1/2" copper tubing dies that I have for that purpose, but in all reality I don't know why I hold onto those dies.

In the end for me the walnut hill came down to the "buy once, cry once" approach. I like to get my feet wet into hobbies and I am tempted to get high quality items right away. I than end up buying cheap **** and am full of regret for being so damn stingy. If you get deep into hobbies (which if you're in this forum you likely do) than save up the difference and do it right from the beginning.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Runfiverun, .380 brass with lead swaged into it would make good light bullets.
But my thought was to just use an empty case for the projectile, should be fine for four legged garden raiders with mouse fart charges of powder.

That would probably work, and pose minimal danger to people a few hundred yards off. Length has far more than weight to do with the ability of the rifling to stabilize a bullet. The .303, for example, will stabilize an empty jacket. But much has been said recently on the boards about the danger of wave pressures from light charges of slow powder. I would make sure it was a fast burning one.

[guywitha3006]

Well I guess I will be saving for a walnut hill for a little while longer. I already have the CH4D 101 9mm swage dies ordered just impatiently waiting. I am still torn on the 9mm case to 9mm jacekt die, Richard Cordbin has one he will make me for I thin $160. After the initial cost 9mm jackets would be free to $0.02 tops and would not be dependant on material price and availability down the road. Actually making jackets does not really worry me, I would do a few at a time after work and it makes a good winter project.

Does anyone make a .40s&w to .45 acp die for less then $200? Or can you just use a standard 45 acp swage die set?

[goblism]

Well I guess I will be saving for a walnut hill for a little while longer. I already have the CH4D 101 9mm swage dies ordered just impatiently waiting. I am still torn on the 9mm case to 9mm jacekt die, Richard Cordbin has one he will make me for I thin $160. After the initial cost 9mm jackets would be free to $0.02 tops and would not be dependant on material price and availability down the road. Actually making jackets does not really worry me, I would do a few at a time after work and it makes a good winter project.

Does anyone make a .40s&w to .45 acp die for less then $200? Or can you just use a standard 45 acp swage die set?

I use a standard 45 acp swage set. I expand the 40 S&W case when it is empty, than add my core, seat the core, and swage the point.

I have also swaged the 40 cases without expanding. In this "case" I use a smaller punch (the 40 case will only have ~0.40" opening compared to an expanded 40 case which would have ~0.44" opening) which causes the case to expand. I seated a couple of cores and included a picture showing an expanded one and one that i just seated the core. As you can see the one that was not expanded has a slight curve where the lead did not push out the case. Makes minimal difference once you go to the point forming stage. The biggest difference I notice is that there is more "bleed by" or whatever you want to call it around the punch as the punch does not tightly fit to the inside diameter of the brass/jacket.

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa12/goblism/20150615_144251_zpsn7jqrmqv.jpg (http://s203.photobucket.com/user/goblism/media/20150615_144251_zpsn7jqrmqv.jpg.html)

[runfiverun]

I have done the case flair to fit the rifling thing and it actually works pretty well.
a good annealing and pouring some lead into the case makes it work even better.
the neighbors horse will attest to it's effectiveness at 50 yds.