Pine "Sawdust" Table saw fine? Chain saw size? Courser OK?

[benellinut]

Getting ducks in a row for my first smelt, I can't wait to get going! I bought pine shavings (bedding) at the local feed store, they are a little courser they chain saw shavings, is that OK to use for smelting down COWW? Do I need to find something finer and if I do, how fine? If these are OK for smelting, can I also use them during casting or should I have something finer for the casting pot/melter (Lee Pro 20lb)?

Thanks guys, I've learned so much here (and the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, more tips here though ;-)) I can't wait for my first boolit's to drop from a mold!

[lightman]

The stuff that you bought should work fine. I usually use beeswax or candle way in my casting pot, as the ingots are already clean.

[merlin101]

Shavings or sawdust is just fine as long as it's dry. I only use shavings when smelting dirty bulk lead into clean ingots, nothing but clean ingots goes into my casting pot.

[bangerjim]

Any carbon-based "stuff" will work.....even OLD MOTOR OIL! Have no idea why anyone would want to smell that stuff AGAIN, but some use it. Carbon is what we are after here.

I use sawdust.....whatever I have from my table saw. Pine, walnut, mahogany, alder, cherry, etc. All work. Even dry leaves from the back yard. I have several Chinese pistachio trees and the DRIDE leaves smell great! Just make sure they are DRY B4 pushing them below the lead surface.

DO NOT use perviously vib-tumbled walnut or corn media. Has all kind of nasty stuff you do not want to breathe. COWW gunk is bad enough.

Flux 3X in your remelting pot to get clean ingots Then only beeswax in your casting pot to reduce the Sn back in. Afterall, you already made 100% clean ingots, RIGHT?!?!?!?

bangerjim

[bhn22]

I only use sawdust when doing my large initial melts. I tried using it in my pot, only to discover that I had a layer of fine charred sawdust that I couldn't consistently remove from the pot. I'd have to drain it, then toss out the final quarter inch of alloy to get rid of it. I ended up putting this mess in with my questionable alloy to be reclaimed with the next big melt.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I bought a food blender at a yard sale last year. I toss in a handful of dry chainsaw chips and "Puree" them for a few pulses.Robert

[benellinut]

I bought a food blender at a yard sale last year. I toss in a handful of dry chainsaw chips and "Puree" them for a few pulses.Robert

THAT sounds like a good idea! Wonder if I could get away with using the wife's food processor to do enough for my first smelting tomorrow.... My fear is the wood will scratch the heck out of the clear plastic and then she'll know I've been at mischief again. I do have a nice big table saw in the basement but I rarely use it these days, there is no left over sawdust but I could run pieces of 2x4 through it but rather not just to make sawdust.

[Eddie17]

I use fine wood chips form my horse stall. These were bought at a local feed and grain store as fine wood shavings. As long as they are dry, they come to a char and work excellent.
After many fluxes with these, I finish with a couple of bees wax fluxes.

[Walter Laich]

as bangerjim pointed out we are after the carbon so whatever wood you use it will be reduced to C.
.
Now you could use flooring with formaldehyde in it but 'normal' sawdust you create is fine
.
remember some folks have wood allergies--mine is mahogany so I stay away from that
.
if you start with finer sawdust it will reduce to C quicker but we're talking 650-700 degrees so there is only a difference of a few minutes to get it reduced down.

[runfiverun]

it's gonna sit there and turn to charcoal anyway.

[Landshark9025]

THAT sounds like a good idea! Wonder if I could get away with using the wife's food processor to do enough for my first smelting tomorrow.... My fear is the wood will scratch the heck out of the clear plastic and then she'll know I've been at mischief again. I do have a nice big table saw in the basement but I rarely use it these days, there is no left over sawdust but I could run pieces of 2x4 through it but rather not just to make sawdust.

WRONG! Back away from the food processor!
Rules 1 and 2 about casting:
Rule #1 - Do not get any moisture under the surface of the melt. It's best to keep all moisture out of the pot to begin with.
Rule #2 - There are a myriad of kitchen appliances that could be useful for one thing or another. Cookie sheets, spatulas, spoons etc. When you see an item you would like to "appropriate" head first to Wally World, buy a new one of better quality and that is nicer in every way. Then replace the old one in the kitchen with this new one.

She won't be fooled and will know you are up to something, but domestic tranquility will be preserved.

Oh, and to be helpful, I use ground up corn cob media that I get delivered in 40lb bags for about $25 from here: http://www.zoro.com/econoline-blast-media-corn-cob-20-to-40-grit-526040g-40/i/G2165387/ (http://www.zoro.com/econoline-blast-media-corn-cob-20-to-40-grit-526040g-40/i/G2165387/)I see the price has gone up. It doesn't smell as nice as pine sawdust. I have used chainsaw shavings by placing cardboard down and then just pouring that in a coffee can and I have used these. I think this gives better results to be honest, but that could just be my imagination. I am sure they all work the same.

Edit to add something helpful.

[1_Ogre]

From what my understanding is after a lot of reading is that the wood shavings/sawdust is put on top of the smelter to form a layer to keep oxygen away from the lead, thus preventing oxidation. Yes, some still use oil but that's really messy and smells bad. Most any sawdust/wood shavings should work as long as their moisture content is down. Remember the Silver Fairy NEVER sleeps.

[JSnover]

Do I need to find something finer and if I do, how fine?
Coarse or fine, makes no difference. If you didn't have any sawdust you could stir your pot with a dry wood stick and get the same results.

[benellinut]

From what my understanding is after a lot of reading is that the wood shavings/sawdust is put on top of the smelter to form a layer to keep oxygen away from the lead, thus preventing oxidation. Yes, some still use oil but that's really messy and smells bad. Most any sawdust/wood shavings should work as long as their moisture content is down. Remember the Silver Fairy NEVER sleeps.

That is exactly what I read too, the guy who wrote it and the guys who vouch for him give him great credence in my book.

Just came in from trying a test smelt, it went pretty well for my first time. I have a propane burner like those for turkey fryers, I have one of my wife's old coated cast iron dutch oven I'm going to use for smelting but for today I used a big ole plumber's ladle I bought years ago at a yard sale. My goal was to test two things, could I control the temperature and keep it under 750 so I don't melt any missed zinc and trying the pine shavings.

I have a thermocouple I bought to use with the PDI in the Lee Pro, I put a plug on it so I could also plug the thermocouple in my Fluke meter and I have a infrared thermometer. I wanted to try both to keep an eye on the temperature, the thermocouple worked much better.

I double sorted some of my COWW to make sure I had nothing but lead, added them to the ladle, turned on the heat and took my time bringing it up to a melt very slowly, much slower then I needed but it was a good learning experience for me. Only thing I goofed was getting so entranced stirring the pine shavings three times that I didn't back the heat off and it peaked at 725 before I noticed it, again a good learning experience. BTW the pine shavings worked just fine as you guys said they would.

Next step will be to use the dutch oven and do up a bigger batch but a few things I need to add first. I'm going to drill the bottom of each foot on the burner, weld a nut on the top side then put a bolt in that I can use to level the burner and pot, where I will be smelting in front of the shop the cement has a grade to keep rain water away from the overhead doors. I'm going to make a bracket, attach it to the burner to hold the thermocouple, it will have a couple pivot points and thumb screws for adjustments and moving it out of the way when necessary. Lastly I'm going to pick up a respirator, even with the pot outside the shop and a fan blowing straight at my back, when the wind shifted I got nasty hits from the fumes and it was a mild day here, 5mph winds. I had elevated lead levels once some years ago when I did a lot of indoor Bullseye shooting, I don't want to go through that again. I'll also have to build a good exhaust fan in the shop above where my casting bench will be.

You know this casting business is a deja vu of when I got into reloading, bought a press, dies and scale then I was constantly shelling out more coin for this and that and that........ How much do I have to spend to save money? LoL

Well thanks for the feedback gents, I'm one step closer thanks to you folks!

[Down South]

Like said, any carbon based substance will work. Stir it in well, scrape the sides and bottom of the smelting pot. I usually do this twice to three times before pouring ingots.

[lightload]

What about charcoal or powdered graphite?

[Oreo]

Carbon works as an oxygen barrier but saw dust works as a flux. There's an important difference. I use saw dust when smelting to clean the alloy and powdered carbon in the casting pot because it prevents oxidation and doesn't foul up the spout.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Well, I only spent $15 for the food processor on the last day of their yard sale. Seems 1 or 2 of the speeds didn`t work. My chainsaw chips are 2 pails of 5 gal. size of dead dry wood I have cut up. The chips have been sitting for almost 3 years now and are bone dry. I only do a handful at any one time and do a match burn test on the resulting "chopped" up chips before using them in any of my pots. So be as critical of my process as you want that I have used for several years now, obviously you haven`t tried it as of yet.Robert

[runfiverun]

charcoal is carbon.
when you stir the burnt dust into the melt you are actually performing a process called carborization.
this cleans the alloy and also helps the stuff in the alloy bind together better.

if you have stuff on top of the alloy.
that is mostly oxidized alloy/tin and you need an oxygen free barrier to make that go away.
okay,,,,,, go back into the melt.
I use wax, on top of the charcoal.
then stir everything like crazy throw a little more wax on top then light it on fire and stir some more.
push everything against the sides of the pot.
then scrape it off.

[lightload]

How well do the commercial fluxes work?

[lightload]

Hardcast, you got it down right. I'm still trying to find sawdust. While growing up, I lived next to a 100 ft high, 1 acre pile. Had I just known!

[borg]

I use fine wood chips form my horse stall. These were bought at a local feed and grain store as fine wood shavings. As long as they are dry, they come to a char and work excellent.
After many fluxes with these, I finish with a couple of bees wax fluxes.

I can't let go, LOL
You can use ANYTHING in the horse stall,, after all, it's all grass/hay. JUST MAKE SURE IT'S DRY.
You also should run it through some kind of strainer/grater before use.
YOU made me do it!

[country gent]

I have used sawdust from my mitre saws collection bag. wood from the chainsaw and right now am using pet bedding. The only diffrence I have seen is the finer sawdust "cooks" quicker drying out and charring faster to be ready to stir in and flux. The pet bedding takes a few mins longer to start to char letting me know its dry enough to start stirring. I also add a little parafin with the sawdust wood chips to speed the charing along faster and help clean and blend the alloy. The big thing is to do the same thing the same way or as close as possible to be consistant.

[mold maker]

The use of sawdust is 2 fold. When it flames up, it consumes the O2 at the surface and robs the oxides , leaving the metal to return to the melt.
Then the charcoal from the consumed sawdust serves as a barrier between your melt and the O2 in the air, retarding the formation of more oxides. It also insulates from heat loss. A win/win/win, and its free, or very cheap.
As an added benefit, stirring the charcoal through the melt or dip-pouring melt through charcoal (carbon), robs it of impurities that hinder good casts.
It's light weight so it floats quickly, and easily scrapes off the pot sides and bottom.

Regarding fans, place it on the other side of the pot pulling away from you, and there will be less eddie currents of fumes in your face.

[bangerjim]

How well do the commercial fluxes work?

Waste of your $$ as far as I have seen and read about. Sawdust is free and is the best most of us have found.

[borg]

How about fire log starter? wax and sawdust
Really cheap for those who can't get sawdust

[bangerjim]

Hardcast, you got it down right. I'm still trying to find sawdust. While growing up, I lived next to a 100 ft high, 1 acre pile. Had I just known!

You surely have cabinet shops around you somewhere down there? Look in the phone book and call them. I know of at least a dozen shops within miles of me. But I make so much of it my own in my wood shops, my wife uses it around plants!

Buy a pine 2x4. Clamp it in your vise. Get your hand saw out and make some sawdust! It does not take a "mountain" of it to flux your pot. Just be creative!

Do NOT use the sawdust from Home Depot or Lowe's as they cut pressure treated, laminate, fiber, and flake board which all have stuff in it you do not want to breathe. The smoke from filthy WW's simmering your re-melting pot is bad enough!

[bangerjim]

How about fire log starter? wax and sawdust
Really cheap for those who can't get sawdust

You still have to cut them up! And they are relative costly. Why not just cut up a pine 2x4? ANYBODY can get sawdust (or pet bedding at Walmart). You just gotta look.

[borg]

A $2.50 is not expensive for a 3.2 lb log from WM, a dull knife will cut it.
Now, if you get the flavored ones, all bets are off.

ETA Guess you might have a hard time finding them in Phoenix. LOL

[bangerjim]

It will surprise you but most newer houses here have fireplaces! And many have chimeras in the backyard. I have 3 firewood stacks in the backyard.

[Oreo]

The use of sawdust is 2 fold. When it flames up, it consumes the O2 at the surface and robs the oxides , leaving the metal to return to the melt.
Then the charcoal from the consumed sawdust serves as a barrier between your melt and the O2 in the air, retarding the formation of more oxides. It also insulates from heat loss. A win/win/win, and its free, or very cheap.
As an added benefit, stirring the charcoal through the melt or dip-pouring melt through charcoal (carbon), robs it of impurities that hinder good casts.
It's light weight so it floats quickly, and easily scrapes off the pot sides and bottom.

Regarding fans, place it on the other side of the pot pulling away from you, and there will be less eddie currents of fumes in your face.

THREE-fold. You missed one, and this is an important distinction most people here miss.

1. Is an oxygen barrier to prevent oxidation.
2. Is as a reducing agent. The carbonized sawdust returns oxidized lead and tin back to the melt

3. Is as a FLUX! Only wood does this. Not wax, not oil, not straw and grass clippings or any of that stuff. They will char and be a source of carbon but they will not be a true flux the way wood is.

There's a sticky somewhere on this forum that explains this in detail. Find it, read it, reap the rewards.

[Down South]

We had one of our members/vendors selling wood shavings at one time. I can't remember who it was but the stuff was good. I'm about out of it but it worked better than anything I had used before. Maybe my memory will pull it back up so I can post it.

[Down South]

I remembered. It was Pat Marlin's California Flake Flux. It's good flux but I don't know if he still sells it or not. If he does, I need to make another order.

http://www.lsstuff.com/patmarlin/flux.html

you can PM him using the member name PatMarlin.

Talked to Pat. He no longer sells his famous California Flake Flux. He has sold his mountain property.

Pine shavings or pine sawdust as mentioned in several replies works just fine.

[trixter]

How about fire log starter? wax and sawdust
Really cheap for those who can't get sawdust
I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ here, but why can't you get sawdust? A trip to a local lumber yard would be in order, or cabinet shop, or a neighbor who does woodworking. Just some ideas to help you out.

[bangerjim]

How about a 2x4 and a hand saw?!?!?!?!?!?

Or a Skill-saw?????

EVERYBODY has at least one of the above.

[1911KY]

Yea, this has been very confusing to me as well!!! 2x4 and any kind of saw!!!

If you absolutely don't have any means of creating sawdust, go to Lowe's or Home Depot back where they cut the wood for you. You can get it there free, according to a member on here. That's what he does.

[bangerjim]

Only problem with HD/Lowe's or any big box lumberyard is the cut nasty stuff (pre-treated/flake/particle/laminate/Formica/etc) that has glue and gunk and plastics in it we really do not want to breathe. The carp off WW's is bad enough!!!!!!! A cabinet shop is a good source as long as the do not do kitchen or bathroom counter tops! Hardwoods and pine only is preferable.

EVERYBODY as a Walmart near by, right? They seem to be everywhere! Get a bag of pine pet bedding......will last for a looooooooooooooooooooong time.

banger

[Oreo]

Pine pet bedding.

[RogerDat]

Pine pet bedding.

^^^^ Source for those without own pile of sawdust is this simple. Any Walmart, any pet store the pine shaving for hamster, gerbil or other rodent bedding. Cheap and available almost anyplace. I found shavings from a friend who planed a bunch of wood down works great. Finer than chainsaw or pet bedding but coarser than sawdust. That and he brought me three large boxes of it so it is the clearly my best option.

Chemical fluxes pull out stuff that is not desirable to lose from the alloy. They act in a totally different manner than wood chips. I think the article linked to in the sticky clarifies this really well. We don't really "flux" in the true sense of the word with wood shavings, any more than we truly "smelt" the metals when we make ingots. But then we don't truly want to flux thus purchase of chemical flux such as one would use for brazing or welding is not a good idea. We want to use the change in electron charge state of wood shaving turning to carbon to cause bad stuff to bind to it. We call it fluxing because we pull bad stuff out AND to distinguish it from "reducing" which is what wax does when it causes tin and to some extent I think lead oxide to recombine with the lead or "reduce" back into the mix. So fluxing, is different than reducing and the terms are close enough.

Pet bedding wood shavings are everywhere. Why waste time with a saw a 2x4 unless you have something to make. Whatever you use you do NOT want the stuff from HD or Lowes, treated lumber is not safe to burn so burning the sawdust is not safe. I know I have had them cut good number of treated lumber pieces. And plywood with glue and .... Not good.