smokeless powder??

[longunner]

What powder smokes the least or is there any pistol powder that doesn't smoke with the 38 special 158 grain hard cast 14 brinell hardness with a 4 inch barrel. I suppose longer barrels smoke less.

As of now I use Clays.

[bcp477]

None of the actual smokeless powders produce any real smoke, or at least not enough to really be noticeable....and that includes Clays. However, BULLET LUBE applied to cast boolits DOES produce smoke when fired. You speak of "158 grain hard cast"... obviously cast boolits, which will have a waxy lube. THAT is where the smoke you're seeing comes from, not the powder.

As to eliminating the lube smoke, probably can't be done. Every variety of lube of which I am aware will produce some smoke. Perhaps someone else on this forum can suggest a lube that will minimize this, I don't know. But you can't eliminate the lube on cast boolits. If the smoke is a real bother to you, your only other options are epoxy coated boolits or jacketed ones.

[longunner]

Lube is only needed to size the bullet after casting.... I shot Speer wad cutters without lube, with Bullseye powder and it smoked bad.

[jugulater]

i always thought the smoke was part of the fun..

[Petrol & Powder]

Lube is only needed to size the bullet after casting.... I shot Speer wad cutters without lube, with Bullseye powder and it smoked bad.

/\ What? /\

And I agree the smoke is part of the fun.

Some of the waxy type lubes (like the type found on Speer WC's) smoke less than some of the other heavier lubes.
Before I was casting bullets, I shot an enormous amount of factory wadcutters and the Speer WC's were some of my all time favorites. The Speer's had a waxy, tumble lube type coating that was easy to deal with and the bullets shot very well. When I switched to casting and lubing bullets myself, the smoke increased but I wouldn't trade less smoke for store purchased bullets.

[longunner]

those speer WC foul the dickens out my barrel...so much for their lube.

the bullets I shoot exclusively Rogers better bullets are way harder and hard to believe they would need lube to prevent fouling. I shoot a dozen jacketed after the hard casts.

I'm gonna remove the lube on a hundred rounds and see.

[Petrol & Powder]

Good luck with that.
I'd suggest buying a lot of Chore boy and a new bronze brush before trying that.

[dragon813gt]

Lube is only needed to size the bullet after casting....

I don't even know what to say about this false statement.

[Bzcraig]

those speer WC foul the dickens out my barrel...so much for their lube.

the bullets I shoot exclusively Rogers better bullets are way harder and hard to believe they would need lube to prevent fouling. I shoot a dozen jacketed after the hard casts.

I'm gonna remove the lube on a hundred rounds and see.

Please report back WITH pictures!

[bcp477]

Oh well. Hundreds (perhaps even thousands) of years of collective experience with loading and shooting cast boolits.....and with loading smokeless powders.....had by the forum members. But, this guy has got us all beat - he knows it all ! And his smokeless Bullseye load "smoked bad"..... yet no one else's does this. Must be a "special" brand of "Bullseye", right ? "Boolit lube isn't necessary".... everybody got that ! We've been doing it WRONG all these years ! :)

That's enough time wasted on this. You can't help the ignorant if they insist that it is a virtue.

[jugulater]

i seem to remember that hard alloys promote leading, and running without lube will promote "washing" and hard fouling buildup, thus your smoke issue may steam from bad boolit fit and lack of lube.

[bangerjim]

Of the many powders I have and have used, ETR7 from Expansion Industries smokes the least. Prior that, my standard was TiteGroup which produced very little smoke.

I shoot indoor a lot and smoke is really evident if there! Since eliminating grease lubes from my fire arm's diets and using 100% powder coating, I have ZERO grease smoke, so powder smoke is easy to see.

Most nitro-based powders today are "smokeless" to one degree or another. One of the dirtiest and smokiest powders I have found is Unique, which I have not used for over 2 years.

banger

[longunner]

And his smokeless Bullseye load "smoked bad"..... yet no one else's does this.

You must be calling me a lier then.... novice hobbiest ALWAYS think they know it all. EVERYBODY I have EVER talked to about alliant bullseye says it's a Smokey powder. The only way to avoid this is staying away from light loads. As I said Hodgdons Clays smokes ALOT less, so there goes your theory on LUBE. DA.

[longunner]

kinda got mixed results on this forum. Lube prevents fouling. Ok. It's the lube that causes smoke...?? But when I shoot Clays it smokes a lot less then bullseye... so there goes the theory on the lube. Signing off guys.

[DrCaveman]

Just because you shot speer wadcutters without lube under bullseye and it smoked... Gives no reliable conclusion about the effects that lube has on fouling or smoke.

Dude, you are glossing over way too many variables here. If you would like to just plod ahead with your current opinion, then by all means do so. But if you want to actually understand what is going on and why it is happening, then you should listen.

Lube preventing fouling is the tip of the iceberg. If you want to sign off now, it's your loss. One instance does not make conclusive evidence.

Fwiw, bullseye and unique both smoke a lot for me in most loads. Unless i load them hotter, into their balance points...then it is pretty clean, with unique being the smokier of the two at that point. Regardless of lube or jacketed bullet

[dragon813gt]

It appears to the OP REALLY needs to read "From Ingot to Target"
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

I suggest he pay particular attention to chapter five. If we only needed lube for sizing than a product such as Lee's case lube would be a better option. I will let Mr. Fryxell explain bullet lubrication.

[longunner]

Ok, I read chapter 5 and see what you mean... all the load data doesn't load high enough for cast to get rid of smoke. What a cheap way out of buying jacketed brings on it's own set of problems.

Guess I can't have my cake and eat it too, oh well.

[DrCaveman]

Im with mike here on the lube choice. My high velocity fill-the-lube-groove loads smoke a bit more than my tumble lubed 45-45-10 loads, despite the high pressure of the first loads

And i use a lot of ramshot competition, a lot like clays. Much less smoky than bullseye, unique, trail boss or 700x for me. Still a little smoky though

[longunner]

I lubed some .30 cal. cast...with Lee Liquid Alox but loaded up with rifle powder. I doesn't fill the grooves, but instead only gives a light coating. Maybe before I talk to this guy, I can remove the lube from the boolits I have and use the Lee lube to see. thanks

[fecmech]

Lonegunner--If you want minimal smoke from your 158's, use Clays powder with a light coating of 45-45-10 or lee liquid alox. That's as good as it's going to get with cast.

[bangerjim]

I have also found after messing with loads up and down the spectrum that light loads (those "cat-sneeze" favorite ones people mull over) will cause more fouling and smoke due to lower pressures and inadequate burning of ANY "smokeless" powder. Even any of my minimal smoke powders will create smoke when lite loaded. And that is with PC.

Smoke..........why even worry about it! If it shoots straight and gives you the accuracy you desire, shoot it! As I stated earlier, I shoot inside a lot and most there shoot com-load ammo and there is smoke from those......all brands that I have seen.

Since we are burning stuff, there will be various amounts of smoke. If you want to REALLY see smoke, go to a black powder shoot!!!!!!!

[longunner]

no thanks on the black powder....



smoke on the light loads I'm sure is the main culprit.... along with the lube. It just makes a mess of the gun that's all.

[Petrol & Powder]

Longunner, you may not know this but guns can be cleaned. In fact many of us frequently and routinely clean our guns after use.......

[bangerjim]

"Praise the Lord.....and pass the ammunition!" (smokeless or not).......it's the PURPLE FONT!

We need to use more of it these days!

banger

[longunner]

funny.... I'd shoot more if I can clean up the soot while shooting.

Bayou bullets sounds like the ticket... no wax lube.

[dragon813gt]

"Praise the Lord.....and pass the ammunition!" (smokeless or not).......it's the PURPLE FONT!

We need to use more of it these days!

banger

If you need people font to tell you when a post is sarcastic then sarcasm is lost on you. Not singling you out. It's just that most members can't seem to grasp sarcasm :(

How dirty are your firearms? For most powders to clean up they need to run towards the top end. If you expect your firearms to stay squeaky clean then don't shoot them and cover them up. If you forget to cover them up they will get dusty and you have to clean them ;)

[longunner]

shootin 357 with H110 is 90% cleaner... just tryin to throw around some ideas to possibly get the same results. Like factory 38 jacketed.

[Ola]

We'll I know a load that is WAY cleaner than any load with H110. Like "factory 38 jacketed". Unfortunately that powder is probably not available in your area (?).

.357 Mag case, Vihtavuori N310 4 grains, 140 gr lead bullet lubed with "regular" bullet lube (no LLA!). I shoot maybe 1000 rounds before I wipe out the black soot. Sometimes a clean also the barrel. There really isn't any reason to do it, because the barrel is still clean.

[longunner]

OLA

Don't see N310 listed, so yeah you're right, it's not available for me. So whats a substitute from V V?

[Ola]

N320 is the closest one. It burns also very cleanly.

[Ola]

And if you want a "safe choice" the N32C Tin Star is like Trail Boss.

[bangerjim]

If you need people font to tell you when a post is sarcastic then sarcasm is lost on you. Not singling you out. It's just that most members can't seem to grasp sarcasm :(

How dirty are your firearms? For most powders to clean up they need to run towards the top end. If you expect your firearms to stay squeaky clean then don't shoot them and cover them up. If you forget to cover them up they will get dusty and you have to clean them ;)



I use sarcasm a LOT and it is sometimes totally lost on this place. People seem to take ever word that proceedth out of the computer as gospel.

It's a joke....I say......it's a joke, son.

Unfortunately many on here have very thin skins and take comments as fact rather than opinion. Or humor!!!!!!

"in my humble opinion!"

[longunner]

you're right... lube doesn't cause smoke.

Ola said..


357 Mag case, Vihtavuori N310 4 grains, 140 gr lead bullet lubed with "regular" bullet lube (no LLA!). I shoot maybe 1000 rounds before I wipe out the black soot. Sometimes a clean also the barrel. There really isn't any reason to do it, because the barrel is still clean.

[Ola]

you're right... lube doesn't cause smoke.

Ola said..

I did not say lube doesn't cause smoke. Actually I have no idea what causes the smoke. It has never been such a problem I had to think about it. I just hate the smell of LLA.. like burning wet socks..

[longunner]

here's Bayou bullets demo.....without the traditional wax lube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS-MUUaHx78

[jugulater]

i have a tube of lyman orange magic lube and on the side it says "less smoke". obviously lyman believes lube has something to do with smoke.

i can fire the same load, but one boolit lubed with orange magic, the other with my home brew, and my home brew will smoke terribly but the orange magic produces practically no smoke. my home brew leaves the barrel sparkly clean, where as the orange magic leaves some hard fouling behind.

Just powder coat everything.

[35remington]

Given that cleaning the gun is a five minute process I don't see the obsession with cleanliness. No matter what you use, you can't eat off it afterward.

I might suggestion that a preoccupation with accuracy and ballistic consistency is time better spent. Pretty much always. Some of the best loadings may not be as "clean" (shooting firearms is a dirty process and "clean" definitely does not apply in any situation) as others, but if a load is selected with cleanliness as its foremost criteria priorities clearly need to be readdressed.

Five minutes. Think about it.

[longunner]

If I can get great accuracy and cut down on soot, then that's the objective. I only shoot at 7 yards with a 4 inch barrel. And I would do more shooting if it doesn't soot so much.

[tazman]

The people who watch at the indoor range I shoot at often comment that the loads I shoot in my pistol/revolver smoke a lot(LLA lubed cast and Bullseye powder). I always ask them if it matters whether they smoke if they all go in the bullseye.
I shoot my loads because they are accurate. Cleaning the gun is just a few minutes work.

[Ola]

7 yards and accuracy.. what are we talking about here? Give me an example of poor accuracy.

That N310 load is accurate up to 100 meters (ca. 110 yards). I have shot it also to 150 and 200 meters and the accuracy seems to be there. These shots at longer distances have been just for fun: there isn't enough power to topple the steel turkey or ram and the trajectory is quite ridiculous..

[longunner]

Never meant I don't get great accuracy, I do.

I had a buddy pick up some N320.. thanks OLA.

I'll load up some of my 158 hard casters and see if the smoke drops out any. In the vid I posted is what smoke I generate with 3.0 grains of Clays with my (Rogers better bullets, King Shooters Supply having wax lube) and Bayous bullets, so hopefully the N320, which is extruded, and a off white color reminding of Hogdons extreme powder, will do some justice...Clays still makes a mess of the gun. I was told that Varget burns waaay cleaner than IMR's line.

[Ola]

You'll love VV powders...

[longunner]

thanks Ola.. I'm a rifleman and not used to dirty shooting. I have N135 and wanna try it in my Garand.

Veetavoree....

[NC_JEFF]

I believe Bayou Bullets coat their boolits with Hi-tek. I'm happy with traditional lubes as long as a round is accurate and I like PC'd boolits. I want to try Hi-tek but haven't taken the opportunity to buy any as of yet. Good luck on your search for a smoke free cast load.

[bedbugbilly]

I have shot black powder for 50 years . . . love the smoke and smell of it . . . it's addictive. I use a lot of Bullseye in my 38s . . all different barrel lengths . . . and I get smoke as well. . . . if I can't see and smell the BP . . . the Bullseye is a decent replacement . . . . love it and the smoke/smell of my other powders as well - Red Dot Unique, etc. Or maybe it's the "lube" I'm using that evidently I'm not supposed to that makes that pleasant smoke and smell . . . maybe I should "double up" on the lube? LOL

[Petrol & Powder]

I like cleaning guns! OK, I know I'm in the minority but it's true.

[wallenba]

What powder smokes the least or is there any pistol powder that doesn't smoke with the 38 special 158 grain hard cast 14 brinell hardness with a 4 inch barrel. I suppose longer barrels smoke less.

As of now I use Clays.

Clays IS about the best low smoke powder out there for it. I improved my smoke problem a little bit more by switching to a gas check design (if you haven't already) and lubing just the bottom groove with White Label brand Carnuba Red.

[bangerjim]

I like cleaning guns! OK, I know I'm in the minority but it's true.

Were you dropped as a child?!?!?!? HA....ha! :kidding:

I hate cleaning guns...........that's just one of the many reasons I use PC for everything now.

banger

[longunner]

It's not that I don't like cleaning...but if a revolver gets it in areas where it requires more break down of the gun.

[Ola]

Veetavoree....

This how you say it: http://fi.forvo.com/word/vihtavuori/

[str8wal]

Prior that, my standard was TiteGroup which produced very little smoke.

I live only a mile from town and do a lot of shooting through a tire tube (a half dozen tires placed shoulder to shoulder) for sound supression, and if a powder is "smokey" you will know about it. I have also found that TG produces very little smoke, but all smoke a little.

[Petrol & Powder]

Were you dropped as a child?!?!?!? HA....ha! :kidding:
..............



Highly likely. That would explain a lot :wink: !

[35remington]

More break down of the gun?

i remove the cylinder and drop it to soak in the solvent bucket if the gun has a lot of buildup. Old toothbrush cleans the cylinder window and forcing cone area in the meantime. Remove cylinder from solvent bucket. Run brush or patch through it and barrel. Quickly reassemble as there isn't much to do.

This simple regimen is hardly any cross to bear. Low pressure rounds like the 32 long never burn spotless no matter what powder is tried. Somehow I get over that and shoot thousands of rounds a year anyway.....probably because I assign the importance of "clean burning" its rightful place of "not very."

I'd rather shoot, and I do. Believe me, I don't spend much time cleaning despite not having a clean powder fetish. As mentioned, the pressure levels of some handgun cartridges don't allow one to have a clean powder choice.

[Ola]

. Low pressure rounds like the 32 long never burn spotless no matter what powder is tried. My logic says it just takes fast enough powder that burns completely in small charges.

Is there such a powder for 32 Long? I have not reloaded it, but in high quality factory ammunition powder burns as cleanly as one might ever expect. So I think there is.

[longunner]

people assume a lot of things, that's where most debates arise.

[35remington]

Shoot it sometime. Everything is sooty at a minimum. No choice but to live with it. If you got anything faster than what I'm using I'm unaware of it as most are listed in the top 10 in terms of burn speed.

Which doesn't help. Speed the powder up all you want.....it's pressure that is the problem.

The factory ammo doesn't burn squeaky clean either. Just the way it is.

[Ola]

"Burns as cleanly as one might ever expect" is definitely NOT "Squeaky clean". There is always something left behind.

But there is definitely a difference in powders. I use 90 % Vihtavuori powders and I'm used to see my guns pretty clean. Don't take it wrong: I really like other powders but some of them are dirty compared to VV.

[longunner]

Trust me I'm well aware that there's gonna be some soot left behind no matter what is used. Idon't shoot a boat load of ammo at one visit. Maybe 100 rounds. But if I can cut down on crud, then I'll shoot more.