Compare .500 WE superior with .475/.480?

[Naphtali]

This query specifically disregards maximum and near maximum loads for all cartridges.

Apparently, .480 Ruger and .475 Linebaugh cartridges loaded as 400-grain hard cast WFN bullets @ 1000 fps are demonstrably superior taking larger game at 80 meters and closer than is a .454 Casull 360-grain hard cast WFN bullet @ 1100-1150 fps because of substantial increase of WFN cross section. If this is accurate, . . .

does/would a hard cast WFN 400-grain WFN .500 Wyoming Express @ 1000 fps be superior to the .475-inch bullet identified previously in similar degree, again because of its substantial increase of WFN cross section?

[Dale53]

If anyone thinks that a bullet .023" larger in diameter 40 grains heavier than a .454 going one hundred to one hundred fifty feet faster is demonstrably better, they have been taking too many "happy pills". Is the .480 Ruger a decent game getter with a 400 gr WFN at 1000 FPS, I would say "YES".

Is a .454 360 gr bullet at 1100-1150 a decent game getter, I would say "YES". There is absolutely NO scientific measurement available that can demonstrate the superiority of one over the other. They would either do well. In fact, both of them would probably do better if juiced up to their most effective velocity, but that is not what you asked.

Just my opinion...but I stand with it.

Dale53

[454PB]

Now wait a minute Dale......

What if the Elk is two inches longer?
Wouldn't that .023" and 40 grains give an advantage?

[S.R.Custom]

There is absolutely NO scientific measurement available that can demonstrate the superiority of one over the other.

Indeed... At these power levels one should be using a rifle. I would suggest either a 7mm Magnum, or at the very least, a .358 Winchester. ;)

[Lloyd Smale]

I think theres a small advantage to the 475 if the bullets are both pushed at the same speed but if your pushing the 454 a 150 fps faster it probably close the gap. I know that a good hardcast 475 at about 1350 will outpenetrate about any handgun and will blow away the penetration of any 7mag class rifle. Ive shot lots of big game with 500 and 475s and even 44 mags and 45 colts and under a 100 yards if loaded properly are every bit as good at killing animals a 1000 lbs or less as any 7mag load. If you cant handle the recoil of a handgun loaded up to the level needed or arent good enough with one to use it effectiively in the field then take a scoped gun out and do it. But to say a handgun isnt powerful enough is hogwash. Come to the linebaugh seminar one day and youll probably meet a guy that has taken over a dozen elephants with the 475 in culling operations. Ask him if hed rather have a 7mag and hed laugh at you. Ive personaly witnessed a 475 outpenetrate a 458 mag in testing and i dont think youll find anyone here that will tell you if you poke even a 45 cal hole through the vitals of a 600 lb elk its going to run very far. As to the we and a 400 and how it compares. I think your starting to get down a little low in bullet weight for the caliber. Especially if your using wfns. A 440+ grain bullet would be much better. But to be realistic a 400 grain bullet out of a 500 would probably kill any elk. Were going to out today to shoot a couple meat bufflalo cows at the buddys place. I will be using a 500 linebaugh with a 450 swcgc bullet at 1200 fps. Sure hope nobody tells that cow it aint hauling a small bore rifle!!

[44man]

Lloyd said it all in a nutshell! :drinks:

[Dale53]

454PB;

>>>What if the Elk is two inches longer?<<<

Well, you silly thing, you (said with a swish and a wave,:mrgreen:, you just stand THREE inches closer!!:drinks: LOL

Dale53

[Naphtali]

From responses, I recognize .454 Casull baseline would be better having been omitted.
***
What I'm attempting to discover is significance of larger WFN of .500 WE compared with same weight (400 grains) and shape bullet in .475/.480 at same velocity (1000 fps).
1. Is wound channel severity, however you want to measure it, improved with larger OD bullet?

2. If wound channel severity improves, is this a worthwhile improvement, again, however you want to evaluate it.

[44man]

I have to put this picture here. Me and Whitworth were fooling around and I told him to shoot through that tree. He laughed so I shot my .45 Vaquaro (335 gr WFN.) at it! :mrgreen: He stopped laughing and started to take pictures. Then he shot above my hole with his .475 (430 gr WFN.) and took more pictures. The tree is 16" in diameter and you can see damage on the grapevine too. Lots of fun. Not many animals will stop these things.
Try that with a 7mm mag without FMJ bullets! [smilie=1:
I don't like to compare calibers for killing power from the .44 up. They all work with the right boolits.
I want to find the perfect tree that will stop a boolit with the nose sticking out the back. Years ago I found it with a 30-06 using tracers, 2 feet of solid oak. Should have seen the tracer smoke pour from the entance hole! :Fire:

[leftiye]

I think 44man did it again! It's been said many times- dead is dead. Especially when, as 44 man said, there is MUCHO penetrating ability with all of these calibers and heavy boolits that can't be used with effect on anything smaller than Efellant. I.E. you're killing heck out of a tree, or a rock, or a hill behind your game. Most of the available energy is of no use. If you're really worried about big time wound channel, then use a condom boolit with terminal behavior matched to your game. But you have to eat it yerself!

As Linebaugh (?) said, these things with lead boolits are just long range punch preses. Bigger calibers punch bigger holes. Bigger meplats cause more tissue damage. Hollow points do much more damage. (period)

The .44 mag. had killed virtually every animal species on the planet long before people started developing these other calibers. Doubt any of them animals would have noticed the difference if shot with one of "tomorrow's guns today."

[Lloyd Smale]

if you want to see what ft lbs of energy mean in the field read this!!! Those 450s were going probably 1300 fps out of the sixguns and dumping lots of energy. See what ftlbs bought us. NOTHING!! Give me penetration anyday!! http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=28101

[Dale53]

My "big game" experience is small potatoes compared to yours (½ dozen whitetails with a .44 magnum). However, I started out with a 429421 Lyman Keith and it worked well. Extremely well (every shot with that bullet has been "through and through" - even end for end). On another deer, I was talked into using a 180 condom bullet. I hit the deer twice, bullets did not exit, and I lost that deer. No blood trail, NADA! I freely admit that I hit that deer a little far back (it was moving both times) but with the Keith I would have had a blood trail. The last deer I took, I hit it in the neck with the Lee C430-310-RF that Frank and I designed. The wound channel was impressive. Relatively hard cast and wide meplat. That is the recipe for me. Understand, the Keith will cleanly take any whitetail out there with decent shooting and you WILL get total penetration with a decent wound channel.

On larger animals, I will have to defer to you fellers with much more big game experience than I. If I were hunting the larger big game, I'd reach for the Lee or similar bullets at 1300 fps and not feel undergunned.

Dale53

[Lloyd Smale]

dale you would have been much better off with that 310 45 hardcasted then those gimic .50s we were trying to shoot and even they were probably superior to any jacketed bullets.

[Dale53]

Lloyd;
That's my take on it (realizing that I have no experience with the larger big game). However, I shoot well, mostly[smilie=1:) and we all agree that WHERE you hit it is paramount.

Lloyd, thanks for sharing your experience with us. This kind of REAL information can be quite helpful to those considering which caliber and bullet for the particular task at hand.

Dale53

[leftiye]

Lloyd,
Though one should not argue with percieved reality generally, I draw another conclusion, yes a smaller penetrating wound channel might have killed them while your expanding boolits did not, but 45-2.1 may well have the answer - if your boolits shed weight badly.

There is no place to go with this whole scenario. Unless the loads just plain didn't have sufficent power for the animals, and all monster pistols are therefore underpowered. This should not be the case as the 500S&W generates as much energy as does an 06. I'm using the S&W because I'm not acquainted with the Linebaugh. So, if we conclude that there was enough raw power to kill a sheep (not to worry about a buffalo), How could it have not killed it?

I think you must be right about penetration not being sufficient, and you didn't reach the vitals. Theory, but strong theory says that penetration AND width of wound channel is better than wound channel alone. Also wound channel without penetration equals something like a surface wound (not good). You maybe should work on reducing expansion so that adequate penetration can be achieved. Also tin and copper will enable your alloy to stay together and retain weight and penetrate further.

I've been working on loads with speeds like the 1300fps you used, and soft nosed boolits, and your thread was valuable information. How about the possibility that them monster guns are so large bore that they will not penetrate sufficiently if there is expansion of the boolit?

[Lloyd Smale]

leftiye i think your on to something better then the rest of the theroys. Im not going to let improper alloy be blamed because everyone of the bullets we recovered were about picture perfect mushrooms with the execption of the bullets Al was using with were loosing there noses and failing the worse. Thats understandable as you cant expect a 200 grain 50 cal wadcutter to penetrate. that bullet just had to big of a hollow point cavity period but mine were cast out of #2 with a pure lead nose then hollow pointed with a tool i had made to do it. They retained about all of there weight but still didnt give complete penetration on any of my shots. Some made it to vitals but not all. I think your threroy of the fact that a 50 cal and even a 4570 bullet is so large allready that when it does expand its like a giant parachute. Im also sure that the ones i made with the pure noses would untrack whitetail as the sheep with there heavy wool makes a little tougher on bullets penetrating. But the thing is that how many guys are going to grab a 500 very often to hunt deer. Ive been hunting with them and the 475s for years and have killed deer bear and pigs with them but there not my usualy go to guns for that job. Usually you will see me in the woods with a 45 or more likely yet a 44 mag.

[Whitworth]

if you want to see what ft lbs of energy mean in the field read this!!! Those 450s were going probably 1300 fps out of the sixguns and dumping lots of energy. See what ftlbs bought us. NOTHING!! Give me penetration anyday!! http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=28101

AMEN LLOYD!!

[475/480]

If the question is whether the .500-400gr WFN at 1000 fps creates a larger would channel than a .475-400gr WFN at 1000 fps the simple answer is yes.The 500 has a larger meplate so it only makes since that the 500-400gr WFN would create a bigger would channel at the same velocity.
The question is how much bigger? I don't think anyone really knows.
I shot a whitetail last year with my TC 480 Ruger-10" barrel with a 420gr WFN at 1250 fps ,the boolit is from a LBT mould I have, the meplate on this mould is LARGE (80%+).The deer was walking away at 30 yards and I hit it in the ribs angling forward and exiting in the front of the chest under the neck ,the deer traveled 30 yards and piled up,there was some blood shot meat.
I have shot deer with my sw500 -400gr WFN at 1200 fps and at 1500 fps,the meplate is 75%, the deer shot with the SW 500-400gr WFN at 1500 fps had 3" circle of blood shot meat :groner: I won't do that again, the deers shot with the 500-400gr at 1200 traveled only 20-30 yards and piled up,so I will stick to the 1000-1200 fps loads when using the WFN in .475 OR .500,both are very good killers.
A few years ago I shot a Nilgai Antelope with my FA 475 Linebaugh using a 425gr LFNGC at 1050 fps at a paced 62 yards.The shot hit the top of the heart and exited,the Nilgai went about 80 yards and piled up ,when I opened the antelope up and found the wound the entrance was 1/2" and the exit was 1/2" and the wound at the heart was maybe3/4" and as far as I am
concerned NOT as large as I would like.
So I prefer WFN's (75% +meplate) in .475 and .500 or .510 for hunting deer ,pigs etc.. to create a nice blood trail though IMO you can get by with LFN in 500,510 for thin skin game.I do realize the LFN will kill anything but they do not produce as nice a blood trail as I like.


Sean