Enfield Pattern '14: keep or sell? - lots of pics

[Andy]

I have an enfield pattern '14 (p-14) and wanted to offer up what I know about it and see if you guys can tell me anything more to give me an idea what to do with it. I found it informative to do research on, so I wanted to pass on what I learned in the process and hopefully I'll learn some more from the discussion.

-It has an import marking under the barrel at the front that says "CAI st albans VT, P-14 .303 USA" my understanding is that this means it was imported to the U.S. after 1986. I believe it is correctly marked as a p-14 since .303 ammo chambers normally and it appears to be a p-14 in every other regard.
-"W" markings at the start of the serial number mean it was made by winchester, '17 means in 1917 and serial number search for winchester p14 production lines up with that.
- Star on the top of the receiver (5 point star in a circle): is this the weedon repair mark? Not sure if this rifle went through the weedon repair or not, although I speculate that it did based on the stock.
- I believe the stock is a U.S. model 1917 stock, as evidenced by the equal length grooves in the handguard and the single hole and routed area underneath the butt-plate. "R" on stock means it was made by remington. I have read that many model 1917 stocks were fitted to p-14 rifles during the weedon repair work, so that suggests this happened.
- Bolt number does not match receiver/barrel, but receiver and barrel do match.
- Weapon does not pass field headspace test with a coin-type gauge, so is not safe to fire in this configuration.
- Cleaning kit/oil tube is present and empty.

Any thoughts on what I should do with it? Can it be brought into correct headspace without significant expense so it can be a shooter? Is it better to just part it out so that other people can complete rifles based on these parts? I don't have much of a personal attachment to the rifle, just want to give it the highest use it should.

If you notice anything from the photos that I didn't write about, please let me know.

Thanks,
Andy

[Andy]

More photos

[Maven]

Andy, the import mark, CAI means Century Arms Importers (don't know whether they're still in business though).

[mac60]

How much force are you closing the bolt with? I'm sure to take fire here (so I'll duck my head) - but "excessive headspace" is frequently blown way out of proportion. If you handload there are things you can do to get this gun shooting. They're great old rifles - while not "rare" they are getting harder to find. I myself sure wouldn't part it out or sell it. I'd be shooting it this weekend if it were mine.

[frkelly74]

What is meant when you say " Weedon repair " ?



And yes it can most probably be made to shoot. I think all 303 Brit rifles were built with generous head space, From What I have read.

[leebuilder]

Neat find. If the price is right get it. It can be chambered, that may be pricey.
Good write up. Thanks.
Be well.

[big bore 99]

I have a P-17 Eddystone 30-06 my Grandfather carried thru France in WW1. It'a good shooter and I'd never part with it. Part of the family.

[kens]

If I spell it correctly, Criterian barrels offers new barrels for that.
Personnaly, If I was going to re-barrel that, I would do a .444 Marlin barrel for a real thumper.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Reading your post over, I think your research on this rifle is just about spot on. A P-14 in a 1917 stock. The parts appear to be in pretty good condition. What is the grey stuff (looks like JB Weld) on the left side of the receiver? Has the stock been bedded? Anyway, these rifles were known to be more accurate than the average Lee Enfield and were often issued as sniper rifles.

[frnkeore]

It's not been stated but, to shoot it with excessive headspace, you load the bullet out and "jam" it (doesn't have to be hard) into the rifling, to hold the rim against the bolt face. It will then just fire form the shoulder, into place.

Frank

[Dutchman]

Century Arms International (yes still in business). They formerly used CIA for Century International Arms. (I think there was some issue with the CIA markings on some rifles purchased in-bulk by NGO for distribution to 3rd world insurgents.)

Total production between E, R & W: 1,117,850 from Feb. 1916 to mid-1917.
Winchester: 235,448
Remington: 403,126
Eddystone: 604,941

In 1926 nomenclature was changed to Rifle No.3 Mark 1*. The * denotes re-design of the left locking lug.

It would be erroneous to assume your stock is a US Model 1917 stock. In his book, The American Enfield by J.C. Harrison, he depicts a Rifle No. 3 Mk1* with World War 2 MkII stock. There is no grenade lunching sight and no disc and no other markings that would indicate where it was from. In other words, it looks just like a US M1917 stock with the grasping grooves being of equal length.

The crossed pennants with the '17 date is not the date of manufacture but the date of acceptance into British inventory after inspection. Your serial number is pretty close to the end of production so it may have been manufactured in early 1917.

I would ------------>NOT<------------ part this rifle out. I'd offer it up for sale as-is and suggest it be purchased by a handloader who may adjust his handloading protocol to compensate for the headspace issue..

Gleened from elsewhere:

The M1917 has a longer magazine, so P14 in a M1917 stock will show a sizeable gap at the front.

The Weedon Depot issue is just deactivating the grenade launch sight on the left side of the stock. Its not always a nice neat job....

http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rrtrqbrgfrksskkxwfqbfsgtwfb,vi/sqfwttqgwxrqkrftsgqxfbrrbrfbd/4/28344/9865882/DSCF3901b-vi.jpg

To illustrate the service life of these rifles... Notice the '61 under the pennants. That's for 1961.

http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rrtrqbrgdkwtrbbxwfqbfsgtwfb,vi/rtqgrtqkxgsfrrwrwrxwwgddrsrt/4/28344/9865882/DSCF3899cb-vi.jpg

And to further reinforce that long life span.. Notice the '62 stamp on the stock. That Winchester stock on a Remington from very early 1916 production has seen some hard life... some of it at the hands of Brit (or Commonwealth) depot workers. The sisal rope on the lower triggerguard once attached a depot hang tag that was lost before I got this rifle.

http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rrtrqbrgfbdqwggxwfqbfsgtwfb,vi/rtkwwfdgsxfwqtkwgdbxrtftwsbf/4/28344/9865882/DSCF3902cb-vi.jpg

Trying to decipher US M1917 or P-14 rifle can be an exercise in futility.

Dutch

[Andy]

Thank you all for so many fast responses, I see that other people like getting into this stuff as much as I do. I'll try to respond to everything in order:

- Yes, CAI - Century Arms International, my understanding is that the first year they were in business was in the early 60's and the first year that import marks were required was 1968, but no imports were allowed between 1968 and 1986 so that led to my conclusion that it was imported after 1986.
- Coin gauge I'm using is from "okie" gauges (instructions on their website), I've only done this type of check on this one rifle so I just followed their instructions and used "light finger pressure" to try to close the bolt. I felt like it was right around where i was going to stop when it closed with the field gauge.
- For what it is worth, i know the guy who owned it before me (until late 90's) had probably put 5-20 rounds through it with no issues, and when I bought it as a teenager in the late 90's I put 5 rounds through it as well. Nothing odd happened for those 5 rounds and I later learned I shouldn't fire it before checking headspace, which I only did this year, so it has sat in the safe the last 15+ years. I wouldn't do this again, and don't advocate shooting something that won't headspace, but thought it might be info worth sharing.
- Not sure what the grey stuff on the receiver was but I was worried it might be hiding something so I removed it with my gun cleaning solvent and it came off fairly easily, later pics should show it gone. Stock has not been bedded.
- Dutch thanks for all the great info and for taking the time to write such a detailed post. A few months ago I read on another forum (can't find thread now) that the 1917 stocks had a routed area under the buttplate, connected to the cleaning kit hole (like mine does), and that the p-14 stocks had two holes. This was spoken of as a conclusive way to tell if the stock was a 1917 or p-14. Additional supporting factors were that the handguard grooves were equal length and the magazine well was slightly enlarged to the exact degree that a 1917 stock would have to be to fit a p14. I am only regurgitating what I read somewhere else, so I don't know if that info was correct or not but that's all the info I have on why I believe it was a 1917 stock. What are your thoughts with that additional info? Wasn't part of the weedon repair that they also modified something with the bolt to make it a little stronger? I wish I could remember what I had read but it was months ago when I did most of my research.

Thanks for all the thoughts and info everyone, if it would be helpful to see some more pictures I have the rifle out and can take some. I would rather not disassemble it again unless there is a good reason to, but will happily do it if there is info to be gained. let me know if there is something you want to see a close up photo of.

[leadman]

Was this headspace gauge a "no go" or a "field" gauge?
From your discription of checking the headspace I would fireform the brass with a fast powder like Unique, Fill remander of the case with Cream of Wheat cereal and put a wax plug in the case mouth to hold it in. Then only neck size the cases for reloading and you should be good to go. This procedure reduces the clearance, or "headspace" between the case and the chamber. This same procedure also reduces the clearance between the sides of the case and the chamber which helps extend the useful life of the brass.
With light cast boolit loads the cases should give you long service.

[Andy]

Hi leadman, this was a field gauge, you can see a photo of it here: http://www.okiegauges.com/sales.html scroll down to the .303/30-40 krag one, it's a coin style, my first time using this.

Instructions say that if it closes on the field gauge with "light finger pressure" then it has not passed the field gauge test.

Thanks to everyone for tips on how to load for it, I wasn't aware of these techniques and it is good to know that I have some options to make it shootable that wouldn't cost much money. I am new to reloading within the last year and am in the process of getting set up for all the calibers I use commonly, so if I decide to keep this and reload for it, it would be at the end of the priority list.

Sounds like the following are reasonable options:
1) keep it to turn into a shooter as-is in the distant future
2) sell it to a reloader who wants to do the same
3) keep it to rebarrel as a magnum someday, restock it at that time and sell the stock to someone who needs it for a period rebuild

Any thoughts on what I would get for it if I sold it? If i'm only going to get offered $200 I'll just hang on to it for the historical interest of it and/or to do option 1 or 3 someday. If it's worth considerably more than that and is something other people would appreciate having more than me then I would probably sell it to fund other reloading purchases.

[Dutchman]

l would think the absolute low end is around $350. But I think it would bring more like $500 and there's always the chance it would bring $650 being a snobbish Winchester. If It was *me* I'd let it go at $500.

When Century Arms had these in stock they had so many they built sporters in .300 Winchester Magnum and maybe a couple other calibers... 7mm Remington Magnum. They dropped them into a sporter stock and drilled/tapped them for scope mount. The large boltface of the P-14 made it ideal for such conversions without much effort other than rebarreling. Hence many $500 collectibles became $250 sporters.

Dutch

[Andy]

Thanks for the advice on price dutch, given the value of it I think I will try to sell it to someone who will appreciate it as-is. I like military rifles (I have a m96 in great condition and have read many of your posts on that), but the this one has never been that special to me. I haven't shot it in 15 years so I might as well let it move on. I appreciate your valuation of it, that helped me make the decision. I wouldn't feel right turning it into a sporter unless there wasn't anything else worth doing with it, so glad to not have to go that route.

[Multigunner]

If the bolt body is a non matching replacement perhaps you could find a replacement bolt body that would bring it back to acceptable headspace.
Even if you don't keep it that would increase its value.y